News Is Obama fueling the Gate's incident?

[j93]

One key difference is that the officer says he was present when the phone call to Harvard was made. Gates implies he made the call before the officer arrived. That should be easy to verify, but in any case, it isn't that important.

17 Ware St is likely typically serviced by Harvard would explain why Gates is used to calling Harvard Police and dealing with Harvard Police.

Out of curiosity are police required to provide name and badge number. Shouldnt they be due to accountability? This is a general reponse

 

[j93]

Russ, just give them warnings to post using facts and sources. It will save you and me a lot of headache dealing with them.

theres a huge difference between your posts and his.

Russ_watters - An argument with relevant links and an opinion based on his experiences and logic with at worst a possible jab here and there

Your posts are the same minus the relevant links or an argument .
Just shallow jabs and Bare assertion arguments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare_assertion_fallacy

 

[jgens]

Out of curiosity are police required to provide name and badge number. Shouldnt they be due to accountability? This is a general reponse

Depends on where you live as far as I know. In NYC it's required: http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/pdf/nmshldanalysis4pg.pdf

It's hard to imagine that it wouldn't be required for a police officer to present his/her badge.

 

[j93]

It also makes it easier for people to impersonate an officer if don't need to identify oneself.

 

[Hans de Vries]

Gates looks like a pompous, arrogant fool.

I don't feel that way. How about simply overly paranoid and overly sensitive...

The cop that arrested Gates is supposedly an expert in racial profiling.

Apparently they never studied the case of how to handle a black Harvard professor.


I think one should consider the stress on a police officer having to enter (on his own)
a place where a suspected burglary is going on by possible armed robbers. Risking his
live to prevent the robbery of the tv-set and the stereo set...

You might call this brave but in many countries police corps don't require, and won't
even allow, a police officer on his own to take such risks, and would not take action
without considerable reinforcement on the scene.


Regards, Hans

 

[turbo]

He left his house and came after the police. Do you see how ridiculous he was? Not to mention that what he did was reason to arrest him. He was harrassing the police. Seriously turbo, read the report and stop making stuff up.

I'm not making stuff up, nor have I the ability to control the photos in the news. Have you seen the photos of his arrest? There were at least 4 cops surrounding him and he was in handcuffs in the doorway of his house, after he has already identified himself. Then they hauled him into take mug-shots that are also available on the 'web. I think you'd be pretty upset to have law-enforcement officers treat you that way in your own home.

Edit: BTW, Crowley told Gates that he would only talk to him outside the house, so if Gates followed him out onto the porch, it was a reasonable concession to the officer.

 

[Astronuc]

I'm not making stuff up, nor have I the ability to control the photos in the news. Have you seen the photos of his arrest? There were at least 4 cops surrounding him and he was in handcuffs in the doorway of his house, after he has already identified himself. Then they hauled him into take mug-shots that are also available on the 'web. I think you'd be pretty upset to have law-enforcement officers treat you that way in your own home.

Edit: BTW, Crowley told Gates that he would only talk to him outside the house, so if Gates followed him out onto the porch, it was a reasonable concession to the officer.

If Gates had simply followed the officer outside, and 'quietly' talked to the officer, there would have been no arrest.

Gates was arrested for yelling at the police officer out in public (disorderly conduct). If stood on the side of the road ranting and raving in public, I'd be arrested too, even if I ran inside my house. One's home is not an automatic sanctuary, if one flees for the scene of one's crime.

It appears Gates automatically assumes the 'white' cop is harrassing him because he (Gates) is African-American. All Gates had to do was provide proof of who he was in a quiet and calm manner, and not go ballistic on the officer. The officer was doing his job (responding to a reported break-in) according to procedures. The officer is not responsible for the fact that the witness apparently reported 'two black males with backpacks'.

And in any event, the OP is about Obama's comments, which were unfortunate, given that Obama didn't know the facts/details. Obama was wrong, and he should apologize to Crowley and the Cambridge Police Department.

Meanwhile - Mass. police unions ask Obama for apology
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090724/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_arresting_office

 

[turbo]

I see your point, Astro, though I would have been really upset at being accosted in my own home, too. IMO, the officer should have apologized for the mistaken charge and disengaged, even if the professor was "ranting and raving", instead of escalating the situation to an arrest, charge, and booking. After all, how many burglars are 58-59 years old and plying their trade in broad daylight in a nice neighborhood? Yeah, Crowley was probably embarrassed by getting dressed down, but that's no reason to arrest the professor. The officer's escalation of the situation (vs disengagement) was immature, IMO. I do not hold Gates blameless if he indeed verbally abused the officers, but the offense should be tempered by the context. He had returned from a trip abroad and was sick (and probably tired), and was unable to get into his house. Then he gets rousted by some Cambridge cops for trying to get into his own house.

I don't think that Obama owes the police union an apology because he's right. The situation should have been resolved quietly, and the arrest, booking, mug shots, etc, amounted to an insult on the professor that was unwarranted, given the circumstances. He was just trying to get into his own house, after all. I have quite a number of close friends and relatives who are in law enforcement. Given the very rural nature of this state and the paucity of back-up, the troopers, wardens, and sheriffs here are pretty darned diplomatic on the whole.

Here's an example: My friend and musical partner called one Sunday morning to tell me that he had been picked up for operating under the influence and that he would be losing his licence, which would put a stop to our ability to perform as a duo all over the state. He was pretty distraught, so I drove up to his place to keep him company for a bit, and the arresting officer (a state trooper) stopped in at his apartment to see how he was doing. The trooper lived in town, and wanted to make sure that Tim was OK. The trooper retired from the state police and ran for county sheriff. One of the best sheriffs we have ever had. These officers work alone - they are tough as they need to be, and as reasonable and diplomatic as they need to be.

 

[mheslep]

... Here, he has no such out: this time, it is his own words that will be on the Republican commercials.

I'd be inclined to agree but Obama has some of the same 'teflon' qualities that Reagan had.

 

[Evo]

I see your point, Astro, though I would have been really upset at being accosted in my own home, too.

Stop making things up. He wasn't accosted. They went up to his front door and asked him for an ID because there had been a report of a break in. Where on Earth do you get "being accosted" out of that? He was the one that verbally accosted the police. Anyone with any amount of common sense would have simply given proper ID to the police, realizing that they are doing this to protect him in the event someone had indeed broken into his house. They would have to ask any person for their ID in this circumstance.

I feel Obama should make an apology for making a stupid inflammatory remark. I think that before this is all over, Obama will have to, he was out of line. What happened to "I can't comment since I don't know what happened"?

 

[Count Iblis]

What happened to "I can't comment since I don't know what happened"?

It would make him look like a fool when he discusses the harsh treatment of rioting Uighurs by the Chinese authorities.

 

[berkeman]

It would make him look like a fool when he discusses the harsh treatment of rioting Uighurs by the Chinese authorities.

Perhaps a better way to say it is:

"I can't comment since I don't know what happened yet"

Would that change your argument, Count?

EDIT -- The president should have held off commenting officially until he read the police report, IMO.

 

[turbo]

Stop making things up. He wasn't accosted.

No dictionary?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accosted

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Apparently Obama just apologized. I wish to apologize myself. If anyone is offended by anything I said, it was certainly not my intention.

 

[russ_watters]

The quality of these varies, but this ireport from CNN is really good: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-303137

 

[berkeman]

I wish to apologize myself. If anyone is offended by anything I said, it was certainly not my intention.

(but you didn't post in this long thread...)

 

[russ_watters]

You used the word "accosted" correctly, turbo but that doesn't make your characterization reasonable:

IMO, the officer should have apologized for the mistaken charge and disengaged, even if the professor was "ranting and raving", instead of escalating the situation to an arrest, charge, and booking.

Maybe he would have, had Gates been calm enough for him to get a word in! Gates was so off the handle, the offer needed to take the situation outside just so he could talk on the radio and be heard!

Yeah, Crowley was probably embarrassed by getting dressed down, but that's no reason to arrest the professor.

I doubt he was embarassed because he had nothing to be embarassed for. It's a real stretch to call it a "dress down" - it was more of a berating. Your characterization implies a tone that isn't what actually happened.

The officer's escalation of the situation (vs disengagement) was immature, IMO.

Immature? That's a very odd word choice. But I guess it is explained by this:

I do not hold Gates blameless if he indeed verbally abused the officers...

So really, the issue here is you are still choosing not to believe the officer's account. Turbo: be reasonable. This isn't an argument where weaseling for the sake of being argumentative is going to work. More evidence is going to come out, likely including audio tapes of Gates' ranting. I cannot believe that you are so biased that you actually don't believe Gates was being abusive. Either way, please put some thought into this: you're going to put your foot in your mouth here by weaseling around the facts of what happened. Say it with me: Gates was abusive toward the cop.

I don't think that Obama owes the police union an apology because he's right. The situation should have been resolved quietly, and the arrest, booking, mug shots, etc, amounted to an insult on the professor that was unwarranted, given the circumstances.

Basing that also on your assumption that Gates didn't verbally abuse the cop, I assume? The only thing Obama was right about was that cooler heads should have prevailed: but the only hot head in the incidnet was Gates, so unless he modifies his statement to say that the officer acted stupidly, but Gates acted moronic, there is no way to weasel out of this one.

 

[mheslep]

No dictionary?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accosted

Which the cop did not do (per the uncontested report) until it got to the point of warning Gates he was being disorderly far down the chain of events. Walking up to a obviously jimmied front door in uniform and requesting an ID or that the occupant step out to the front porch does not meet the definition of 'accosted' in any dictionary. Gates accosted the cop almost immediately.

 

[Evo]

The quality of these varies, but this ireport from CNN is really good: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-303137

That is excellent.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't feel that way. How about simply overly paranoid and overly sensitive...

During the incident, yes, just overly paranoid and overly sensitive, plus frustrated. But after a night's sleep, he should have realized how wrongly he acted. His actions after the incident show him to be a pompus, arrogant fool.

And in the words of that ireporter I linked: a race pimp.

Apparently they never studied the case of how to handle a black Harvard professor.

Exactly. The problem of racial profiling is a real one, but it seems that for many affluent blacks, the pendulum has swung the opposite direction. That's the discussion in the iReport I linked.

 

[Count Iblis]

Perhaps a better way to say it is:



Would that change your argument, Count?

EDIT -- The president should have held off commenting officially until he read the police report, IMO.

Look, the whole world is watching here, not just the US public. Unless the Prof. had been violent toward the police (and I mean really violent, not the way Russ defines it), there were no grounds to arrest him in any system that is based on freedom and democracy.

Obama was assuming that whatever he did know about the incident constrained what happened to within those limits in which an arrest was not justified. In general, you never know all the exact details. But if the president wants to be able to, say, criticize Iran for arresting a US citizen on frivolous grounds, then he better make sure he can be trusted to have the same kind of judgement in other cases too, whether or not that is politically convenient for the president.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not making stuff up...

Yeah, you really are, turbo:

...Have you seen the photos of his arrest? There were at least 4 cops surrounding him and he was in handcuffs in the doorway of his house, after he has already identified himself. Then they hauled him into take mug-shots that are also available on the 'web. I think you'd be pretty upset to have law-enforcement officers treat you that way in your own home. [emphasis added]

Gates didn't get upset after being handcuffed, he got upset immediately upon being challenged by the cop. Your characterization of the incident amounts to an intentional obfuscation.

And your misunderstanding of what it meant that the cop was a racial profiling instructor was a classic demonstration of jumping to a rediculous conclusion without putting even a little bit of thought into the issue. It's the stuff conspiracy theory is made of.

 

[russ_watters]

I think there is something we need to clarify about your position here, turbo:

1. Do you believe or are you assuming as a starting point for your argument that Gates did not make racially charged statements toward the officer before showing his driver's license?
2. Do you believe or are you assuming as a starting point for your argument that Gates did not make a "your mamma" insult when the officer asked him to come outside?

In other words, are you assuming as a starting point for your argument that the officer's report was essentially a complete fabrication? You are certainly implying it, and I'd like to clarify specifically if that's what you believe and/or are assuming.

 

[russ_watters]

Something else that has been glossed-over in this incident: the woman who called the police has been called a racist. At this point, we can't know if she is or isn't, but the fact of the matter is that nothing in what we know of what she said/did implies racial intent. Yes, she was wrong about it being a burglary, but despite that, from what we know, she acted perfectly correctly. Furthermore, the backlash against her is going to make people less safe. We already have a problem in this country where people fail to report crimes. What comes of this is that it isn't possible for a white person to report a possible crime by a black person without there being a racist backlash.

I've also let go Gates' outburst as being an understandable result of his frustration and long travel. I'd like to at least clarify if not fully reverse that: even if based on frustration, it is understandable, but it is still completely wrong. I'll go further to say that I used to lock myself out of my car a lot and I've broken into my own house before and I fully understand the level of frustration involved. But I know for certain I would not have reacted the way Gates did. If a cop had challenged me while I was climbing the support post of my 2nd floor deck to get into an unlocked door, I'd have been in a real pickle, because I would have had no way to prove it was my house (my wallet was inside). But I know I would have understood and accepted exactly the situation I was in and I would have acted appropriately. How do I know this? I know it because I'm not a 12 year old and like every other adult, I've dealt with authority figures many times throughout my life. Like every other non-child, I'm responsible and level-headed enough to deal with tough situations gracefully. Gates is a middle-aged child.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Gates is a middle-aged child.

He is not the first black man to be called a child. I have read the police report and the statement of Gates' Lawyer. Someone is a liar and I don't yet know who.

 

[turbo]

I have no idea what happened inside that house, Russ. On one hand you have Henry Gates: Summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Yale. MacArthur "genius grant" recipient. Acclaimed historian, Harvard professor and PBS documentarian. One of Time magazine's "25 Most Influential Americans" in 1997. Holder of 50 honorary degrees.

On the other hand you have a sergeant in the Cambridge police force who has a good record and is an expert in racial profiling.

You seem willing to discount the story of a pretty distinguished scholar, in favor of the cop. Let's see how it plays out. I suspect that if anything is released, it will only be radio traffic after Gates was pretty perturbed, and we will only have the participants' claims of how the situation played out before that.

As I have made clear, I don't care if Gates was tired and upset and flew off the handle. As soon as he identified himself to the officer, that should have been the end of the incident. It was not.

In situations like this the police hold the upper hand, and they should use discretion in applying it. If this had been an older white man with a cane in his own house, with Gates' position and credentials, would he have been arrested even if he was really mad about being suspected of a crime? I doubt it.

 

[berkeman]

I have read the police report and the statement of Gates' Lawyer. Someone is a liar and I don't yet know who.

Can you link to Gates' lawyer's statement (or did I miss it already posted?)? Thanks.

 

[turbo]

Something else that has been glossed-over in this incident: the woman who called the police has been called a racist.

Not by Gates. He wasn't aware of her identity at the time, but he publicly thanked her on Gail King's Sirius radio show. He said that he had a valuable collection of books and art in his home and he was grateful that if someone suspected a break-in, they would alert the cops.

 

[Astronuc]

The quality of these varies, but this ireport from CNN is really good: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-303137

That is excellent.

For the most part, I agree that the commentary is excellent - except for the part where the neighbor is criticized for racial profiling. There is no evidence to suggest that. There is however a statement about two guys forcing entry into a house. Yes, they are reported as black because visually they are. If they had been white, then report would probably have been about two white guys forcing a door.

If the two guys had entered with a key - I'd bet there would have been no call - no incident.


Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail.


I am pleased to hear that Obama called Crowley, and I hope he apologized.

Obama did make a statement about his previous statement and that he probably should have 'calibrated' his words differently. I hope he remembers that in future.

 

[Count Iblis]

Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to pursue by the police and/or DA themselves.

I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.