Rade said:
Paul, you need to help me better understand your hypothesis.
I'll be happy to try.
Rade said:
But, if you hold that PC "starts" as pure potentiality [what you call "ability to know"], and next that at the start ["PC knows nothing"], and then that PC is at the top of a Rosenberg type hierarchy and is in fact "conscious"--I see a logical contradiction in your argument. That is, how can PC at the start "actually" be conscious if at the same time it is pure "potentiality" and is conscious of nothing, not even itself ?
I think you already have an idea how to solve this apparent contradiction because you enclosed the word "starts" in quotes. I think that "start" is the source of the confusion, and the mystery. Here's how I see it.
First of all, starting has to do with time. The start marks the beginning of an interval of time which includes everything that got "started". So we have two things to clear up here: 1) What do we mean by an interval of time? and 2) What are we talking about having been started?
1). Time is another parameter (in addition to space) with which we can measure, or describe, the separation between events. (I just made that up, but that is what I think time is.) So, in order to even have time, we must have at least two distinct events. And, in order to have multiple events, something must change. That means that a specific interval of time is defined by a specific set of separate events.
2). What, exactly, is it that "got started"? Here, as you point out, we have two candidates: a) The potential to know, and b) Knowledge itself. I think we must mean b).
Knowledge can have a beginning marked by the "knowing" of the very first known thing. (In my opinion, there is no such thing as infinity in nature, so the set of known things must be finite. Therefore, there must be some ordering of the "knowing" events on some temporal spectrum in which there is a first such event. This temporal spectrum, I call 'Cosmic Time', to distinguish it from our perceived dimension of time.)
But a), the potential to know, is a different breed of cat. Since nothing need change at all in order for a potential to exist, there need also not be any events. So if a potential exists, and nothing whatsoever changes, there are no events and thus there is no such thing as time. Without a definition of time, we don't have a definition of "starting" either. So to ask when the potential "started", is meaningless.
Of course, this does not satisfy our curiosity to make sense of the "origin" of that potentiality. So we imagine some sort of "time" which is indeed infinite in the past direction and suppose that the potentiality has existed "for all prior eternity". It's either this, or we imagine that the potentiality sort of magically appeared out of absolutely nothing, and got its start spontaneously. Neither of these ideas makes sense. But we don't seem to have any alternative.
Now it is important to note that what I have just said about the "potential to know", can be said of any other ontological primitive no matter what it is. For those who claim that the ontological primitive is some sort of medium which can host waves, the same puzzle about its origin arises. For those who claim that the ontological primitive is a set of physical laws, or an almighty God, or a stack of turtles, or a Higgs Field, or whatever else, the exact same puzzle applies. I think we waste our time if we spend too much of it trying to resolve this puzzle.
So, to sum up, the PATK (=primordial ability to know) somehow mysteriously existed as the fundamental ontological primitive. Next, that PATK somehow acquired its first bit of knowledge. That event marked the beginning of a temporal dimension I call Cosmic Time. As more bits of knowledge were acquired, the set of knowledge grew. The relationships among the subsets of this growing set can be interpreted as causal relationships in the sense that new knowledge was based in part on previous knowledge. The network of these relationships formed (at least) a structure which could be interpreted as a Minkowski space-time continuum. Perturbations in this continuum produce the physical features of the physical universe that we humans observe. The rest is Physics.
What remains is the question of consciousness. As humans, we "know" that we experience such a thing. At least I do, and from the reports I hear from others, it seems that they experience much the same thing that I do. But, what is the actual "I" that does the experiencing? Many people adamantly claim that it is the brain in my body which does the experiencing. I disagree with that viewpoint and claim that there is some single, unique, entity which does the experiencing and which is outside of, not only the brain, but the entire space-time structure in which the body resides.
So what is this entity? Well, I'd say it is the "current state" of that PATK. But here we have to be careful. It is natural for us to think of the "current state" to be measured and marked by our familiar time dimension and claim that the "current state" is presently about 14 billion years after the big bang. But I think that is wrong. I think the "current state" of the PATK is some point in Cosmic Time. From the Cosmic Time POV, our Minkowski space-time continuum is a static structure, similar to a big wad of steel wool, or to Brian Greene's loaf of bread. And, from the Cosmic Time POV, PATK is no longer an appropriate term since the ability to know is no longer primordial but has evolved to enormous complexity and capability (just think of how complex that wad of steel wool is).
Maybe I should digress a little here to emphasize the difference between Cosmic Time and timelike lines in physical space-time. As we know from SR, the rate of the passage of ordinary time is dependent on the observer's motion. In particular, for a microwave photon which left the early physical universe and "now" comes to us observers of the CMB radiation, time has not passed at all. In other words, if an observer had been riding along with that photon, from that observer's POV the entire history of the physical universe since the big bang until "now" would all occur, or exist, at once at one Cosmic instant. That would be consistent with the way in which our space-time would appear as a static wad of steel wool, or a loaf of bread if somehow it could be observed from PATK's POV. If, on the other hand, PATK could somehow take a ride along the world line, not of that photon, but of the body of one of us humans, then from that POV, time would appear to run in accordance with our clocks and calendars. And, if PATK during that ride, were so distracted by the sights and sounds of our physical world that she/he/it forgot all about the Cosmic environment and imagined that this physical universe were all that exists, then that experience would describe exactly what you and I report that we experience. And I think that's what's happening.
So, finally I will define consciousness. Consciousness is that state of the evolved PATK which is the acquisition of the new knowledge that old knowledge already exists. In other words, when PATK reflects on what it/he/she knows, she/it/he comes to know that there already exists a set of knowledge which could be called 'the past'. Some of that old knowledge consists of the facts that PATK can 1)imagine novel ideas, and thereby create new knowledge, 2)recognize certain patterns in the old knowledge and construct new knowledge from the abstractions of those patterns, 3)choose to let certain algorithms operate and thereby create new knowledge comprised of the outcomes of those algorithms (think laws of physics operating on the steel wool), 4)exercise free will to alter certain algorithms and information in the knowledge base, and 5) (my favorite) willfully choose certain outcomes of quantum interactions in the steel wool, which would be allowed within the HUP but which nevertheless would increase the probability of a higher level outcome. (I think this happens in the microtubules of neurons in order to start a cascade of brain functions leading to deliberate manipulation of muscles (thanks to Penrose and Hameroff for this).)
So with this definition, consciousness has (or has had) a wide spectrum of sophistication. Early on, when PATK was truly "Primordial" the rudimentary knowledge of those first few bits (maybe like knowing that nothing was known, i.e. having it finally dawn that this one fact, that nothing was known, was now something that was known. The days (or eons) of knowing nothing were over.) would seem to be a very dim conscious experience indeed. Whereas, after constructing the enormously complex wad of steel wool, and then taking a ride on one of our world lines, the conscious experience would be truly breathtaking.
Rade said:
So, if I read you correct, you are saying that "at the start" there was a PATK (= pure potentiality to know)--but in fact there was no "knowing" because no-thing yet existed to be known
Yes.
Rade said:
(that is, PATK is not a thing that exists otherwise it would be known).
Ummmm...This is not exactly the way I see it, unless I misunderstand you. I'd say PATK exists "prior to" knowledge, but it may not be a "thing", depending on your definition of 'thing'. As for being known, since there is only the one knower, viz. PATK, there would be a first time when PATK would know of its/his/her existence. Prior to that event, its existence would not be known.
Rade said:
Thus, it was not until EXISTENCE emerged (such as the electron and proton) that pure actuality of knowing started.
Here I think it would help to qualify some of your words. If by 'existence' we mean physical existence, then I would agree with what you say here. Physical existence, i.e. the structure and history of the Minkowski space-time wad of steel wool, emerged with its electrons and protons at some point in Cosmic time, and it proceeded to develop with the big bang on the extreme front end of its (local) time-like dimension. How it evolved in Cosmic Time is another matter.
Rade said:
And this state of affairs makes sense--that is before I can "know" anything, do I not first have to have the "potential to know".
I agree. The potential to know must come first.
Thanks for your thoughts, Rade.
Paul