Is sexual attraction necessary for romantic love?

[annoyinggirl]

From an evolutionary standpoint, humans evolved to have the ability and tendency to fall in romantic love because combination of DNA (via sex) served a huge advantage in propagation of genes, and because of the enormous time it takes to successfully raise an organism until it fully developed a (in relation to overall body size) a very large and intelligent brain (thereby creating evolutionary pressure for mates to stay together during that time of rearing offspring). Therefore, from logic, sexual attraction must be present in romantic love because without sex, organisms will have no mechanism to procreate or combine DNA. Without sexual attraction, romantic love would not serve an advantage or function in evolution. And anytime sex exists, sexual selection must also exist, which means sexual attraction must exist. So does it follow that sexual attraction necessary for romantic love, which means that asexual people cannot fall in romantic love?

 

[S.G. Janssens]

From an evolutionary standpoint, humans evolved to have the ability and tendency to fall in romantic love because combination of DNA (via sex) served a huge advantage in propagation of genes, and because of the enormous time it takes to successfully raise an organism until it fully developed a (in relation to overall body size) a very large and intelligent brain (thereby creating evolutionary pressure for mates to stay together during that time of rearing offspring).

This is an interesting explanation of the existence of romantic love. Is it the one commonly accepted by evolutionary biologists? (I'm sorry for this question, but I am not well-informed about the topic.)

Therefore, from logic, sexual attraction must be present in romantic love because without sex, organisms will have no mechanism to procreate or combine DNA. Without sexual attraction, romantic love would not serve an advantage or function in evolution.

I'm not sure I agree with this. From the first quote I gather that sexual reproduction in humans implies the existence of romantic love, because romantic love ensures that mates stay together long enough for their offspring to become fully developed.

However, in this quote you seem to turn the implication around by suggesting that romantic love, in turn, implies the existence of sexual attraction.

This makes me think that I do not agree with your

Therefore, from logic,

argument, because it is not clear to me that there could not be other evolutionary reasons for people to be romantically in love.

 

[annoyinggirl]

This is an interesting explanation of the existence of romantic love. Is it the one commonly accepted by evolutionary biologists? (I'm sorry for this question, but I am not well-informed about the topic.)

I'm not sure I agree with this. From the first quote I gather that sexual reproduction in humans implies the existence of romantic love, because romantic love ensures that mates stay together long enough for their offspring to become fully developed.

However, in this quote you seem to turn the implication around by suggesting that romantic love, in turn, implies the existence of sexual attraction.

This makes me think that I do not agree with your

argument, because it is not clear to me that there could not be other evolutionary reasons for people to be romantically in love.

I said that romantic love ensures that mates stay together long enough to rear offspring, but there has to be some selection process for choosing mates (people aren't going to bond with just anyone), and that thing i think, with no other alternative, is sexual attraction, and then they stay together if their is existence of a bond in addiction to after sexual attraction brings them together. I think romantic love = sexual attraction + platonic love. If you can think of a better definition of what romantic love is, i would love to know. And yes, it is well accepted by evolutionary biologists what the evolutionary purpose of romantic love is.

If romantic love existences for the purpose of procreation, then it follows that it must be linked to sex, and therefore sexual attraction. I don't get what you don't get about that?

 

[S.G. Janssens]

I don't get what you don't get about that?

As fas as I could see, the logic in your OP was not sound. If P and Q are propositions (P = "sexual reproduction exists in humans", Q = "romantic love exists in humans"), then "P implies Q" does not demonstrate "Q implies P". That was all.

 

[ShayanJ]

There are two issues abut what OP is suggesting:
1) The OP is saying that the romantic love is the result of evolutionary need to reproduce and s\he already understands that this means it should only provide an attraction to the opposite sex and can't distinguish different people in the opposite sex. So s\he suggests that sexual attraction distinguishes between different people. But this doesn't make sense and is too superficial and also is in contradiction with observations. What we call romantic love is the part that is affected by the person's personality and sexual attraction is more towards the physical beauty. From the evolutionary perspective, the natural explanation is that the physical beauty can somehow be an indication that the person is fit to reproduce and so it seems more natural to assume that sexual attraction is the result of revolutionary need to reproduce and that makes sense according to what we know about it. We can have sexual attraction to anyone of the other sex but we can love a smaller group of people! So what is love? I don't know!

2) How does this theory explain homosexual love?

 

[jim mcnamara]

From google - courtly love

noun: courtly love

1. a highly conventionalized medieval tradition of love between a knight and a married noblewoman, first developed by the troubadours of Southern France and extensively employed in European literature of the time. The love of the knight for his lady was regarded as an ennobling passion and the relationship was typically unconsummated.[/code]

Ovid's Ars amatoria discusses the subject early on. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtly_love

So, your question really is: Can courtly love exist? Which is really more of an arts and history topic, IMO.

 

[annoyinggirl]

As fas as I could see, the logic in your OP was not sound. If P and Q are propositions (P = "sexual reproduction exists in humans", Q = "romantic love exists in humans"), then "P implies Q" does not demonstrate "Q implies P". That was all.

That was not what i said at all. More like P = 'romantic love exists because it serves an advantage of propagation of genes', Q = 'passing on genes requires sex, which requires sexual attraction'. then P implies Q DOES INDEED demonstrate that Q implies P
the prerequsitie to my argument is the understanding of natural and sexual selection. Please don't comment until you learn the basics of how it works. (a quick glance at a relevant wikipedia page will do!) I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'm just going to a broken record explaining the basics of how the mechanisms of evolution works. That's why i want to post on a science site and on the biology board too - I'm assuming that people have the prereqs.

 

[annoyinggirl]

There are two issues abut what OP is suggesting:
1) The OP is saying that the romantic love is the result of evolutionary need to reproduce and s\he already understands that this means it should only provide an attraction to the opposite sex and can't distinguish different people in the opposite sex. So s\he suggests that sexual attraction distinguishes between different people. But this doesn't make sense and is too superficial and also is in contradiction with observations. What we call romantic love is the part that is affected by the person's personality and sexual attraction is more towards the physical beauty. From the evolutionary perspective, the natural explanation is that the physical beauty can somehow be an indication that the person is fit to reproduce and so it seems more natural to assume that sexual attraction is the result of revolutionary need to reproduce and that makes sense according to what we know about it. We can have sexual attraction to anyone of the other sex but we can love a smaller group of people! So what is love? I don't know!

2) How does this theory explain homosexual love?

the question was not is romantic love = sexual attraction. Rather, the question was does romantic love require sexual attraction? in other words, given that romantic love requires platonic love, with y being platonic love, is romantic love = y , or is romantic love = y + x, where x equals sexual attraction?

 

[S.G. Janssens]

Please don't comment until you learn the basics of how it works.

Please do not refer to

logic

in your OP until you understand the meaning of proposition and implication. Such an understanding is basic to ANY academic activity and should not depend on the particular field.

A quick rehearsal of basic grammar and syntax would not hurt you either.

 

[annoyinggirl]

Please do not refer to

in your OP until you understand the meaning of proposition and implication. Such an understanding is basic to ANY academic activity and should not depend on the particular field.

A quick rehearsal of basic grammar and syntax would not hurt you either.

Only the field of mathematics can be understood by pure logic alone. Even physics requires understanding of scientific principles, which is what differentiates it from the field of mathematics. Can you point out to me where my grammar is incorrect?

 

[annoyinggirl]

I'm not sure I agree with this. From the first quote I gather that sexual reproduction in humans implies the existence of romantic love, because romantic love ensures that mates stay together long enough for their offspring to become fully developed.

However, in this quote you seem to turn the implication around by suggesting that romantic love, in turn, implies the existence of sexual attraction.

This makes me think that I do not agree with your

argument, because it is not clear to me that there could not be other evolutionary reasons for people to be romantically in love.

Even by pure logic, your argument would not make sense. I say that romantic love is to keep mates together long enough for development of offspring, and the creation of offspring requires sex, which requires sexual attraction.

 

[micromass]

Only the field of mathematics can be understood by pure logic alone. Even physics requires understanding of scientific principles, which is what differentiates it from the field of mathematics. Can you point out to me where my grammar is incorrect?

Sure, or you can just admit you made a logical error.

 

[annoyinggirl]

Sure, or you can just admit you made a logical error.

please explain to me. how could one understand Physics, Chemistry, with only logic, instead of knowledge of the field? why do people learn physics in school? why not just logic, which would enable them to learn physics, chemistry, or any other academic subject? why are there even different subjects? Would not pure logic in itself cover them all? why is this site the physics forums, not the logic forums? Surely by your logic, logic would be sufficient to understand physics. The word "physics", then, would be redundant.

 

[micromass]

please explain to me. how could one understand Physics, Chemistry, with only logic, instead of knowledge of the field? why do people learn physics in school? why not just logic, which would enable them to learn physics, chemistry, or any other academic subject? why are there even different subjects? Would not pure logic in itself cover them all? why is this site the physics forums, not the logic forums? Surely by your logic, logic would be sufficient to understand physics. The word "physics", then, would be redundant.

Nobody here is claiming that logic is sufficient to understand physics, chemistry or any other academic subject. We're just pointing out that you made a reasoning error, and you respond very hostile to it.

 

[micromass]

And yes, it is well accepted by evolutionary biologists what the evolutionary purpose of romantic love is.

References please!

 

[Fervent Freyja]

Falsify this: Romantic love is a myth. It cannot be measured or shown to truly exist at any objective level, show me the genes responsible for this romantic love. It's merely a belief and not a natural byproduct of human physiology, it's a social ideal that exists in some, not all, societies.

You have to realize that love, romantic love, or romance are all recently invented concepts. They were only introduced into the belief system of some societies within this last century. Even still today, many cultures and regions in the world do not place weight upon romantic love or even believe in it- it's more about survival. Humans have gotten along just fine without romantic love for many tens of thousands of years. It is not required for our species nor any other organism to be successful in reproducing.

Maybe you should face some hard facts. Men don't really place so much weight on romance or emotional attachment being a precursor to having sex. In the absence of young, healthy women they will have sex with what is available (see rape also)... Look at the sex industry. Sex is often just sex to them, only the abundance of attractive women and social rules allow it to look as if romantic love is human nature. It certainly is not.

 

[annoyinggirl]

Nobody here is claiming that logic is sufficient to understand physics, chemistry or any other academic subject. We're just pointing out that you made a reasoning error, and you respond very hostile to it.

what was the reasoning error that i made?

 

[micromass]

what was the reasoning error that i made?

See post #2.

 

[annoyinggirl]

Falsify this: Romantic love is a myth. It cannot be measured or shown to truly exist at any objective level, show me the genes responsible for this romantic love. It's merely a belief and not a natural byproduct of human physiology, it's a social ideal that exists in some, not all, societies.

You have to realize that love, romantic love, or romance are all recently invented concepts. They were only introduced into the belief system of some societies within this last century. Even still today, many cultures and regions in the world do not place weight upon romantic love or even believe in it- it's more about survival. Humans have gotten along just fine without romantic love for many tens of thousands of years. It is not required for our species nor any other organism to be successful in reproducing.

Maybe you should face some hard facts. Men don't really place so much weight on romance or emotional attachment being a precursor to having sex. In the absence of young, healthy women they will have sex with what is available (see rape also)... Look at the sex industry. Sex is often just sex to them, only the abundance of attractive women and social rules allow it to look as if romantic love is human nature. It certainly is not.

it is needed for humans, whose brains take a long time to develop and whose pregnancies are relatively long. Mothers (at least way way back) needed their mate's help to at least give them some resources. Paternal care is very important for survival of human offspring until about at least age seven (if not the teenage years). Romantic "love" simply just means an attachment with your someone you have sex with.

 

[annoyinggirl]

See post #2.

see post 3 and post 11

 

[micromass]

see post 3 and post 11

I did. Your reasoning error still stands.

 

[annoyinggirl]

I did. Your reasoning error still stands.

the burden is on you, then, to point out how so. you seem unable to say so

 

[micromass]

the burden is on you, then, to point out how so. you seem unable to say so

You want me to formally prove that $P\Rightarrow Q$ does not imply $Q\Rightarrow P$ or what?

 

[annoyinggirl]

You want me to formally prove that $P\Rightarrow Q$ does not imply $Q\Rightarrow P$ or what?

see post 7. P and Q were inaccurately defined to make a strawman argument against mine. GIven how i define P and Q,prove to me that $P\Rightarrow Q$ does not imply $Q\Rightarrow P$

so does romantic love require sexual attraction?

 

[micromass]

see post 7. P and Q were inaccurately defined to make a straw argument against mine. GIven how i define P and Q,prove to me that $P\Rightarrow Q$ does not imply $Q\Rightarrow P$

so does romantic love require sexual attraction?

Then show how it follows by logic that romantic love requires sexual attraction.

 

[annoyinggirl]

Then show how it follows by logic that romantic love requires sexual attraction.

whoa first you have to show me that $P\Rightarrow Q$ does not imply $Q\Rightarrow P$ , like you said you would. I was the one who said science cannot be learned via logic alone whereas the other dude said that you can. the burden is not on me to pure it by pure logic alone, but also from the help of science.

So does romantic love require sexual attraction?

 

[micromass]

whoa first you have to show me that $P\Rightarrow Q$ does not imply $Q\Rightarrow P$ , like you said you would

\begin{array}{|c|c|c|c|}<br /> \hline<br /> P &amp; Q &amp; P\Rightarrow Q &amp; Q\Rightarrow P\\<br /> \hline<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 1 &amp; 1\\<br /> 1 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 1\\<br /> 0 &amp; 1 &amp; 1 &amp; 0\\<br /> 1 &amp; 1 &amp; 1 &amp; 1\\<br /> \hline<br /> \end{array}<br />

Your turn.

 

[annoyinggirl]

\begin{array}{|c|c|c|c|}<br /> \hline<br /> P &amp; Q &amp; P\Rightarrow Q &amp; Q\Rightarrow P\\<br /> \hline<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 1 &amp; 1\\<br /> 1 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 1\\<br /> 0 &amp; 1 &amp; 1 &amp; 0\\<br /> 1 &amp; 1 &amp; 1 &amp; 1\\<br /> \hline<br /> \end{array}<br />

Your turn.

so does romantic love require sexual attraction? i don't know what the hell you just typed; you are just bullying me for not having knowledge in advanced maths

 

[micromass]

so does romantic love require sexual attraction?

I asked you a question: prove by logic that romantic love requires sexual attraction. You claimed it followed by logic in your OP, now prove it.

 

[annoyinggirl]

I asked you a question: prove by logic that romantic love requires sexual attraction. You claimed it followed by logic in your OP, now prove it.

first of all, explain the chart you just typed. How the hell am i supposed to prove any argument, if no matter what p and q are defined as will always generate that SAME EXACT chart?

 

[micromass]

first of all, explain the chart you just typed. How the hell am i supposed to prove any argument, if what p and q are defined as will always generate that chart?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table

 

[annoyinggirl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table

then no argument could ever be proven if it will always generate that SAME EXACT "truth table"

 

[Fervent Freyja]

it is needed for humans, whose brains take a long time to develop and whose pregnancies are relatively long. Mothers (at least way way back) needed their mate's help to at least give them some resources. Paternal care is very important for survival of human offspring until about at least age seven (if not the teenage years). Romantic "love" simply just means an attachment with your someone you have sex with.

You don't need to school me on anything here. You are making too many assumptions based upon your own lucky circumstances. Most female humans that have existed didn't actually have a choice in their partner- many still don't. Have you never heard of arranged marriage? Also, polygamy? Polyandry? Many religions and cultures still do this. Though not always a bad thing, I'm sure that some women have found happiness in arranged marriages and marriage is overall found to be beneficial in all societies (from a survival standpoint).

Oftentimes in an arranged marriage, a sexual attraction or an emotional attachment can develop over time, but it isn't guaranteed to have both or even one in those cases. Count your lucky stars that you have more options. That has not been typical for humans, male or female, throughout history. What you are talking about is an attachment or bond, not romantic love, which can still also form when the man or woman is abusive for years to the other. People can also bond with child molesters/abusers, but that didn't benefit me any really from an evolutionary perspective. I'm not a very productive or social person because of it. Sometimes a child is best without their biological parents, period.

Please check your definitions, this is called bonding, not romantic love, since you want to be logical and all. I'm sure some ISIS members bond after performing so many beheading alongside one another. Ultimately, you could look at many forms of human attachments as a persons selfish attempt to stay alive. Talking about 'romantic love' is mostly little more than describing another persons self-interest in attaching to another person. There have been only a few times that I've heard of others bonding outside of those reasons. Loving someone just because they exist and not for something they can do for you doesn't seem to happen often, that probably occurs in people with higher cognitive abilities. In that case, I would consider the couple to have a true romance, not a hidden agenda.

 

[micromass]

then no argument could ever be proven if it will always generate that SAME EXACT "truth table"

OK, since you don't seem to grasp what a truth table is, I'll provide another proof that $P\rightarrow Q$ is not the same as $Q\Rightarrow P$:

P: $x$ is an integer
Q: $x$ is an even number
Then $Q\rightarrow P$ but $P\rightarrow Q$ is not true.

Now answer my question.

 

[micromass]

References please!

Also, please provide the references I asked for.

 

[annoyinggirl]

OK, since you don't seem to grasp what a truth table is, I'll provide another proof that $P\rightarrow Q$ is not the same as $Q\Rightarrow P$:

P: $x$ is an integer
Q: $x$ is an even number
Then $Q\rightarrow P$ but $P\rightarrow Q$ is not true.

Now answer my question.

you're just using fancy notation to escape the discussion. why can't you just use english and debate like real adult? Use any of these:
If A, then B
A
Therefore B
If A, then B
Not B
Therefore not A

If A, then B
If B, then C
Therefore if A, then C

A or B
Not A
Therefore B

A or B
If A then C
If B then D
Therefore C or D

 

[micromass]

you're just using fancy notation to escape the discussion. why can't you just use english and debate like real adult? Use any of these:
If A, then B
A
Therefore B

or

If A, then B
Not B
Therefore not A

or
If A, then B
If B, then C
Therefore if A, then C
or
A or B
Not A
Therefore B
or
A or B
If A then C
If B then D
Therefore C or D

OK...

Now can you answer my two questions please?

 

[annoyinggirl]

OK...

Now can you answer my two questions please?

what's your question again?

 

[micromass]

what's your question again?

1) Give me references to what is well accepted by evolutionary biologists what the evolutationary purpose of romantic love is.

2) Prove by logic that romantic love requires sexual attraction.

 

[Fervent Freyja]

@annoyinggirl
You stated that your definition of romantic love is "...an attachment with your someone you have sex with."

So replace the term romantic love with your definition into his request:

2) Prove by logic that romantic love requires sexual attraction.

According to your definition of romantic love, it is the same as this statement:

Prove by logic that an attachment with your someone you have sex with requires sexual attraction.

Now, does that make any sense? Just admit that you could have worded it better.

 

[BillTre]

1)

understanding of natural and sexual selection

Sexual selection is a subset of natural selection, not separate from it.

2)

I think romantic love = sexual attraction + platonic love.

You can define romantic love as platonic love plus sexual attraction if you want, but it should be distinguished from other definitions. There are many definitions of this.

3)
Although care of young may be used as a rational for a something like "romantic love" driving a long term pair or family. Other more selfish evolutionary "forces" can be in opposition to this. Males typically want to (evolutionarily speaking) procreate as many times with as many females as possible. This is adaptive if many of their offspring grow up and in turn breed.

4)

anytime sex exists, sexual selection must also exist, which means sexual attraction must exist

This argument applies to non-humans:
Sexual attraction is not necessary in some non-human in organisms. Plants, using pollen blowing in the wind have no need for sexual attraction. Similarly, sea animals that breed by blindly releasing gametes into the water in the hope they will a complementary gamete to fuse with. All that is needed is coordination of the release time (possibly by an environmental stimulus like tides or moon phase).

5)

the question was does romantic love require sexual attraction?

As Fervent Freyja pointed out, real human life presents many cases where sex and "romantic love" do not always occur together.
Or as ShayanJ pointed out homosexuality would seem to be an exception (no reproduction).
Another apparent contradiction would celibate couples (no sex/reproduction).

 

[ShayanJ]

Falsify this: Romantic love is a myth. It cannot be measured or shown to truly exist at any objective level, show me the genes responsible for this romantic love. It's merely a belief and not a natural byproduct of human physiology, it's a social ideal that exists in some, not all, societies.

You have to realize that love, romantic love, or romance are all recently invented concepts. They were only introduced into the belief system of some societies within this last century. Even still today, many cultures and regions in the world do not place weight upon romantic love or even believe in it- it's more about survival. Humans have gotten along just fine without romantic love for many tens of thousands of years. It is not required for our species nor any other organism to be successful in reproducing.

Maybe you should face some hard facts. Men don't really place so much weight on romance or emotional attachment being a precursor to having sex. In the absence of young, healthy women they will have sex with what is available (see rape also)... Look at the sex industry. Sex is often just sex to them, only the abundance of attractive women and social rules allow it to look as if romantic love is human nature. It certainly is not.

Of course love is not objective, otherwise societies would be a mess because everyone would love everyone and would want to marry them!
Anyway, you're saying that because we can't objectively show that love exists, so it does not exist. But this is pure nonsense, because its a day-to-day experience that human's consciousness has a subjective part different from a person to the next. Of course, this subjectivity may be emergent from an objective underlying mechanism but its still a subjective experience. And love is just one part of this subjective experience. The problem of explaining this subjectivity through an underlying objective mechanism is called the hard problem of consciousness.

 

[Evo]

I think this thread has gone as far as it can go, closed.

 

[OCR]

I think this thread has gone as far as it can go, closed.

Closed ? ... huh, do I have special privileges ? ...

 

[Evo]

Closed ? ... huh, do I have special privileges ? ...

Why, yes, yes you do. Evo now closes the thread.