Is the belief that things could always be worse helpful or harmful?

[Lisa!]

I don't know if you talked about it before but I want to get your ideas about it anyway:
Why most of people consider honesty as the most important value in life?
And do you agree with "Honesty is the best policy."?
Do you think that sometimes telling white lies are necessary?

 

[DaveC426913]

Why most of people consider honesty as the most important value in life??

I am not convinced they do. I would say perhaps something more general like 'personal integrity' or 'generosity'.

Do you think that sometimes telling white lies are necessary?

Well, without them, surprise parties would be impossible!

I once heard a working definition of when a lie is morally acceptable: If the person you intend to lie to, will, after the fact, thank you for doing so, it is OK to lie. (Surprise party being the most obvious application).

 

[pallidin]

Honesty does not mean that you have to answer the question in absolute specifics of knowledge.
For example, let's say some "joe-blow" asks the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff about stealth technology, or whatever.
A reply of "It's none of your business" is an honest answer. Even a stern look with no words spoken in this case is an honest answer.

 

[εllipse]

Why most of people consider honesty as the most important value in life?

Most people want the ones they love to be honest with them. This doesn't mean most people are usually honest with the ones they love; that's another topic. I don't think honesty is something people typically strive to achieve themselves, but it sure is nice to surround yourself with people who will be honest with you.

Do you think that sometimes telling white lies are necessary?

Yes, the only time society considers you dishonest is if you lie with mal intent. There's no reason to believe there's something wrong with "lying" when you're doing it for the good of others. Lying is only considered wrong when you do it to further yourself at the expense of others.

 

[Kenneth Mann]

Most people want the ones they love to be honest with them. This doesn't mean most people are usually honest with the ones they love; that's another topic. I don't think honesty is something people typically strive to achieve themselves, but it sure is nice to surround yourself with people who will be honest with you.



Yes, the only time society considers you dishonest is if you lie with mal intent. There's no reason to believe there's something wrong with "lying" when you're doing it for the good of others. Lying is only considered wrong when you do it to further yourself at the expense of others.

I couldn't have said it better!

KM

 

[pivoxa15]

I would prefer to live in a world where everyone told the truth - even though that world would be really boring but at least there is certainty.

The world we live in will never be that way.

 

[Pengwuino]

I think honesty has a sliding scale depending on what someone does. If people always tell teh truth, there's not a whole lot you can tell about their personality so some might say its not important. However, when someone lies, all of a sudden the idea of honesty takes on a whole new level of importance. I think people think there's "a lot more to a person" if they lie, ESPECIALLY if its casual lieing (where there's nothing at stake yet you still lie for no reason). I konw someone who was in this period of casually and non-casually lieing to me and to me it was tantamount to a nuclear weapon going off in a little city when it came to how much of a friend i thought she was.

Maybe its just me however.

 

[Tigron-X]

Yeah, it's the most important value for one to experience, but not to hold. Seriously, it's not like I'm going to get pissed off when I tell a lie... well, unless it was a bad one that got me caught.

And Honesty is the best policy if you don't have one. It's also the best one to fall back on, usually. And it's the best one to have when judging oneself. Otherwise, honesty is overrated. I mean Sincerity is already a better one to have, by ten fold even.

"Are white lies necessary?"
Not just white lies, but even lies that would make a rainbow jealous.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, the only time society considers you dishonest is if you lie with mal intent.

Hang on there. Speak for yourself, not for all of society.

There's no reason to believe there's something wrong with "lying" when you're doing it for the good of others. Lying is only considered wrong when you do it to further yourself at the expense of others.

We are so on opposite sides of this.
I interpret that to mean you believe lying is OK except under certain circumstances, whereas I believe lying is always wrong except under certain circumstances.

The difficulty I have with your philosphy (or how I interpret your philosphy) is in the grey areas. People tend to be a very poor judge of whether what they're doing is for the good of others. Worse, they will rationalize.

Classic example: "I didn't tell you about that affair because I didn't want to hurt you."

 

[εllipse]

... whereas I believe lying is always wrong except under certain circumstances.

The difficulty I have with your philosphy (or how I interpret your philosphy) is in the grey areas. People tend to be a very poor judge of whether what they're doing is for the good of others. Worse, they will rationalize.

Classic example: "I didn't tell you about that affair because I didn't want to hurt you."

I think I agree with you more than my post led you to believe.

 

[Dr.Yes]

If honesty can be compared to a good, solid documentary film

then

lies would compare to a bad and boring soap opera.

A lie will come apart like a ball of rubberbands where
honesty will hold true until all the laws of physics have changed, drastically.

Lies are based on the human mind. And simple ones at that.

Honesty a part of the truth that is found in all existence.

My take. Whatever.

 

[Lisa!]

I've tried not to tell lies since I was a kid."Hiding the truth sometimes,telling lies never!"
when you're honest,you feel better.I mean you don't have to be worried about the time when others may know you told them lie.and you don't have to tell another lie in order to hide your first lie!"Lie is like a snowball!" And once your lie is revealed,people may never trust you.
but sometimes it seems to be really difficult not to tell lie and at the same time not hurt other's feelings.

without them, surprise parties would be impossible!

Be careful about surprise parties!they could be really dangerous sometimes.

Honesty doesn't mean that ...

agree with you.

Most people want the ones they love to be honest with
them. This doesn't mean most people are usually honest with the ones they love; that's another topic. I don't think honesty is something people typically strive to achieve themselves, but it sure is nice to surround yourself with people who will be honest with you.

you know in most cases people tell themselves lies about people whom they love!
by the way,what a difficult username!

THe world we live in will never be that way.

If people tryied to be honest with themselves,it would happen!

I think honesty has a sliding scale depending on what someone does.

Could you please explaine more?

If honesty can be ...

Interesting!



Tigron-X,you really frightens me!

 

[dextercioby]

I hate lying.To be honest,i don't lie too often...(sic!) Some people consider lying to have the same negative impact as hiding the truth.But i always hide the truth to protect them.I'm innocent,deep down inside of me.I never did something bad...Yet i have no friends.Lousy ba$tards !

Daniel.

 

[saltydog]

And do you agree with "Honesty is the best policy."?

No Lisa. Survival is the best policy. One must never forget: "it's all a matter of survival". I know, it's cold, indifferent, inhumane even. The social trappings of civilization hides this basic fact but we are still at our core, biology.

 

[Lisa!]

dexter,isn't this time one of those special occassions that you'd tell a lie?

No Lisa. Survival is the best policy. One must never
forget: "it's all a matter of survival". I know, it's cold, indifferent, inhumane even. The social trappings of civilization hides this basic fact but we are still at our core, biology.

I'm not sure if I've understood you comp. .Could you please explaine more?
You mean human should do whatever to survive himself!

 

[saltydog]

dexter,isn't this time one of those special occassions that you'd tell a lie?


I'm not sure if I've understood you comp. .Could you please explaine more?
You mean human should do whatever to survive himself!

Martin Freedman, the Economist, said, "there is only one thing you can be assured about the other man, he'll put his priorities above yours" (you'll see this as true with time or already do so). That has nothing to do with being honest if you think his priorities are better than yours. That's survival in the real world.

Now I know truth is a nobel cause and is a goal to be pursued in general but always, the biology remains within ourselves. That biology first and foremost is self-perservation. And thus I hold that people will little reflect upon honesty when doing so would threaten their survival, that is, they'll lie.

 

[DaveC426913]

Martin Freedman, the Economist, said, "there is only one thing you can be assured about the other man, he'll put his priorities above yours" (you'll see this as true with time or already do so). That has nothing to do with being honest if you think his priorities are better than yours. That's survival in the real world.

Now I know truth is a nobel cause and is a goal to be pursued in general but always, the biology remains within ourselves. That biology first and foremost is self-perservation. And thus I hold that people will little reflect upon honesty when doing so would threaten their survival, that is, they'll lie.

Yes, but the surpassing quality of humans is that we can choose. We can decide whether we want to live for our own sake, or whether we have compassion for our neighbour. That is one of the defining characteristics of a society. It is what separates animalism from intelligence.

 

[DaveC426913]

I've tried not to tell lies since I was a kid."Hiding the truth sometimes,telling lies never!"

Yes, just remember:

A lie of omission is still a lie.

 

[Lisa!]

Martin Freedman, the Economist, said, "there is only one thing you can be assured about the other man, he'll put his priorities above yours" (you'll see this as true with time or already do so). That has nothing to do with being honest if you think his priorities are better than yours. That's survival in the real world.

Now I know truth is a nobel cause and is a goal to be pursued in general but always, the biology remains within ourselves. That biology first and foremost is self-perservation. And thus I hold that people will little reflect upon honesty when doing so would threaten their survival, that is, they'll lie.

Yes,that's right.Although I wish it wasn't.

 

[Lisa!]

Yes, but the surpassing quality of humans is that we can choose. We can decide whether we want to live for our own sake, or whether we have compassion for our neighbour. That is one of the defining characteristics of a society. It is what separates animalism from intelligence.

And that's what makes him in trouble.I don't know how much authority we have in this world and I think all of our troubles are coz of that.We know we can choose but for sure it's not all the time.

a lie of omission is still a lie.

That's right.sometimes I don't want to ask a question,so I act in a way that people know I won't answer their questions.

 

[honestrosewater]

Do I really need to say anything? [cough]username[/cough]

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

But, eh, consider the source.
Above all, I think it's better to prioritize and use your intelligence to choose the best action rather than relying on crude rules.
I've found that being honest with myself has been very valuable.

Here's an interesting scenario: A woman runs to your door in terror and says that her boyfriend is chasing her, trying to hurt her. You let her inside. A few minutes later, the boyfriend comes to the door, asking if the woman is inside. Do you tell him the truth? Oh, and to make it more interesting, say he is a bodybuilder and has a gun.

 

[dextercioby]

Thinking of what i might be doing with the woman later on ,i would lie to him on ANY possible situation.Unless he were to pay me... In which case,he can do whatever he wants with her...

Daniel.

 

[honestrosewater]

Thinking of what i might be doing with the woman later on ,i would lie to him on ANY possible situation.Unless he were to pay me... In which case,he can do whatever he wants with her...

Daniel.

Well, your honesty is refreshing. :buggrin:

 

[wolram]

honestrosewater.
Here's an interesting scenario: A woman runs to your door in terror and says that her boyfriend is chasing her, trying to hurt her. You let her inside. A few minutes later, the boyfriend comes to the door, asking if the woman is inside. Do you tell him the truth? Oh, and to make it more interesting, say he is a bodybuilder and has a gun
I also have a gun so i shoot him, and milk the situation for all its worth.
But on the other hand--------------------

 

[Lisa!]

dextercioby,I'm really sorry for any woman who wants you to help.there's always worse and here you would be worse than his bf.

I've found that being honest with myself has been very valuable.

So we could say at least honesty with ourselves is the best policy.Lieing to ourselves is the worst kind of lieing.

Here's an interesting scenario: A woman runs to your door in terror and says that her boyfriend is chasing her, trying to hurt her. You let her inside. A few minutes later, the boyfriend comes to the door, asking if the woman is inside. Do you tell him the truth? Oh, and to make it more interesting, say he is a bodybuilder and has a gun.

You can say a white lie!maybe you can still find a way to hide the truth!anyway this kind of lies couldn't be important.

 

[Kenneth Mann]

I don't know if you talked about it before but I want to get your ideas about it anyway:
Why most of people consider honesty as the most important value in life?
And do you agree with "Honesty is the best policy."?
Do you think that sometimes telling white lies are necessary?

This is not a straight-forward consideration. There is no simple answer. Absolute honesty is not even considered by most of us, because it is simply too difficult to achieve.

Sometimes, telling other than the absolute truth is considered tactful. An example: When someone asks the question "How are you?", the person asked may feel a bit less than good, but it is still considered proper to reply with something like "I'm feeling good!". Generally, others don't want to hear what sounds like a complaint.


There's nothing dishonest about not answering a question, but, depending upon the intelligence of the asker, that could be taken in unpredictable ways. An example is the Newsweek reaction when they asked government officials for confirmation of their belief concerning 'flushing of the Koran'. When they got no answer, they assumed that to be confirmation. A logical thinker would never have done so, but some people do.

We are so on opposite sides of this.
I interpret that to mean you believe lying is OK except under certain circumstances, whereas I believe lying is always wrong except under certain circumstances.

You are both hedging here, a tacit admission that this is not a simple straight-forward subject.

Yes, just remember:

A lie of omission is still a lie.

I disagree! If that were so, we would have no free will. Others would be in position to compel us, and this would rob us of freedom of expression. In a free society, silence must be a free and acceptable option in all but special extenuating circumstances (like sometimes in court). We cannot allow free people to be put into compromising circumstances simply by asking them leading or compromising questions (like "Do you still beat your wife?") (sorry, press). Imagine how the 'Tabloids' would love this.

Everyone has secrets (matters of privacy) that others simply have no need to know. Should these be divulged simply because others have a morbid curiosity?

Do I really need to say anything? [cough]username[/cough]
Quote:

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Alas, self deception, though probably the least defendable, is also the most prevalent. We commonly refer to it as 'denial', and it is the stuff from which most forms of discrimination (done to enhance the position of one's self) are made. It is the stuff of internal group politics. It is human nature.

KM

 

[dextercioby]

Who said i was a good guy,Lisa? I would help anyone is distress,just as long i don't get into trouble.Helping that lady would have meant endangering me as a human being,so i chose the wise and safest (for me,of course) decision.

Don't be sorry "for any woman who wants" me "to help".

Daniel.

P.S.So i ask you again,what's wrong with being a bad guy...?

 

[Lisa!]

Who said i was a good guy,Lisa?

For sure it wasn't me.I think all guys are unrelieable esp. those with awesome avatars!

Don't be sorry "for any woman who wants" me "to help".

You're right coz they deserve the worst penalties coz of their stupidness!

P.S.So i ask you again,what's wrong with being a bad guy...?

nothing.In fact most of hot girls fall in love with jerks!

 

[Lisa!]

I think people who are lying all the time are better than those who tell lies sometimes.you can never know when they're lying and when not!


Most of time it's obvious you're lying.HOw others can believe you when you don't believe in what you're saying?

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

I don't believe in full honesty , and angel would do that, but there r people who are very honest that they don't have to lie all the time, but they also lie..

And there r people who are mostly lying, that they can't give it up..

 

[somsom]

I don't believe in full honesty , and angel would do that, but there r people who are very honest that they don't have to lie all the time, but they also lie..

And there r people who are mostly lying, that they can't give it up..

very execelent anser.

why the need for honesty?
are you honest, so you need people honest to you too ?

 

[Jameson]

So when one asks another, "Are you a liar?", can the asker really know anything from the response?

More of a rhetorical question. I think asking someone if they lie is one of the most pointless questions as one can never reach a logical believable answer.

As to the original post, I agree that the intent of what one says is very important in the matter of honesty. The only problem with getting away with these "white lies" is that one person's definition of a white lie may not concur with another's.

Example:

A husband comes home from work to see his wife having sex with his brother. He confronts her about it and she replies, "I just didn't want to hurt you. You'd be happier not knowing".

 

[somsom]

Example:
A husband comes home from work to see his wife having sex with his brother. He confronts her about it and she replies, "I just didn't want to hurt you. You'd be happier not knowing".

good example, that happens many times. never believe in fox's reasonings

 

[Lisa!]

I think people who aren't faithful ,are the most terrible kind of a liar!

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

I don't think so..

 

[Jameson]

I think people who aren't faithful ,are the most terrible kind of a liar!

I find it interesting that you rate lies by degrees of "wrongness", something that I do also. I'm not agreeing with your statement but I would say that most of us find certain lies worse than others. Why? Humans are so illogical sometimes.

 

[Lisa!]

I find it interesting that you rate lies by degrees of "wrongness", something that I do also. I'm not agreeing with your statement but I would say that most of us find certain lies worse than others. Why? Humans are so illogical sometimes.

Yes,they are.I think the reason you do sth is important sometimes.Not all the time.
I think people who aren't faithful are lying somehow at least to themselves and telling a lie to yourself is really bad!it's difficult to explain why I think they're lying maybe because as you said "humans are so illogical sometimes."who knows maybe they're logical exactly when they have no reason to prove they're right!

 

[selfAdjoint]

Yes,they are.I think the reason you do sth is important sometimes.Not all the time.
I think people who aren't faithful are lying somehow at least to themselves and telling a lie to yourself is really bad!it's difficult to explain why I think they're lying maybe because as you said "humans are so illogical sometimes."who knows maybe they're logical exactly when they have no reason to prove they're right!

Can you really lay down a universal law that lying to yourself isn't really bad? Think of Hitler who lied to himself about the Jews, or Lenin who did so about the Kulaks. A person who systematically lies to himself is apt to act upon a falsehood, and that can lead anywhere.

Consider that someone who lies to their spouse hurts that person, and maybe a few others - children, members of their circle, etc. But someone who lies to themselves can hurt millions.

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

Lisa most humans on Earth lie to themselves...

1st of all every person has an image for himself in his mind, the picture must be beautifull to be bearable, fqaithgull or not, sometimes people convince themselves that they r soemthing they aren't and maybe cannot be..

Some people suddenly wake up and look carefully again, and discover the truth, and some don't...it's not because they r bad people who want to lie but it's how they see it.And even if they felt soemthing wron , this is hard to accept..

 

[Lisa!]

Can you really lay down a universal law that lying to yourself isn't really bad? Think of Hitler who lied to himself about the Jews, or Lenin who did so about the Kulaks. A person who systematically lies to himself is apt to act upon a falsehood, and that can lead anywhere.

Consider that someone who lies to their spouse hurts that person, and maybe a few others - children, members of their circle, etc. But someone who lies to themselves can hurt millions.

Why should I do that?I think it's really bad.How is it possible to know myself when I'm not honest with myself?and when I don't know myself how is it possible to know what I should be looking for in my life?


Bigger lie hurts more people.I don't know why I think first you should be dishonest with yourself then you can lie to others!
Sometimes we say sth that we don't believe it.maybe Hitler just lied to others not himself about Jews in order to achieve his goals.
Anyway could you please explain why you think Hitler and Lenin lied to themselves?I mean what kind of lie?and what do you think about all politiciens like Bush?are they lying to themselves too?and why?

 

[Lisa!]

Lisa most humans on Earth lie to themselves...

That's why the world is so terrible.

1st of all every person has an image for himself in his mind, the picture must be beautifull to be bearable, fqaithgull or not, sometimes people convince themselves that they r soemthing they aren't and maybe cannot be..

I agree with you but sometimes people around someone are guilty about this unreal image.they never tell you what they really think about you.sometimes we think we're really good because others are worse...

Some people suddenly wake up and look carefully again, and discover the truth, and some don't...it's not because they r bad people who want to lie but it's how they see it.And even if they felt soemthing wron , this is hard to accept..

I don't think all of them are bad but at least I don't want to be one of them!

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

Yeah people can be guilty cause they don't look thoroughly but there r a lot of causes for that..

 

[Lisa!]

anyway,I can't trust all people's ideas about me!

 

[Dr.Yes]

Lisa! asks, "please expand"

1) Honesty is an expression of a person's actual interpretation of an occurance:

Invariably and unconsciously a person will favour one interpretation of an occurance than another. But this is more of an unconscious and autonomic response that is based in their genetic and environmental conditioning as well as how their brain has organized and expresses that conditioning.

2) Lies relate a person's consciously manipulated interpretation of an occurance:

Here we see the liar using their intellegent interpretation of occurances. They use only those elements of thought that serve their conscious and immediate requirments, disregarding the actual, physical sequences and occurances they have experienced.

There is honesty to be found in both of these actions. They are both human methodologies of surviving either physically, socially or economically.

The honest truth is that both processes are a matter of survival.

However, when you factor in sociopathological reasoning, the discussion transforms and you'd have to move this thread to the psychology section.

 

[Smurf]

dextercioby,I'm really sorry for any woman who wants you to help.there's always worse and here you would be worse than his bf.

Ah, now that's a fallacy if ever I've seen one. Maybe you should start a topic about that next.

 

[Lisa!]

Ah, now that's a fallacy if ever I've seen one

Look in the mirror and you'll see one!

. Maybe you should start a topic about that next.[/QUOTE]
about "There's always worse"?