Is the concept of a perpetual motion machine feasible in the realm of physics?

[Q-reeus]

...So, I would take the forces issue to a reliable forces-Certified General Accountant, and have them look at Guss' system and return me, for a suitable fee of course, a complete tabularized account of the up-path photon, and quantum interaction, and whether the latter obeys some kind of GR regulations regarding redshifting, or whether they are offshore companies that don't pay GR taxes, or if they're in with the photon exchange particles in some kind of energy-laundering scheme, or whatever.

Good luck with finding such Certified Accountant - apart from being hard to come by he/she may charge quite a hefty fee!

 

[Q-reeus]

Actually, discussion on exchange interaction is rather hard to come by on PF, and its contribution to the transmission of energy even more uncertain. If it is invoked as a factor in the mechanical return path in the present discussion, I think it needs some quantification.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=208889&page=3

And the point driven home there was? Beginning at #33 and ending at #40 all I got was a differing of opinions. I could supply a counter link like here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=409034 - entry #19 & following. This whole thing can be made infinitely complex if one wishes to chase the fine details of every possible QM/EM/GR interaction involved. And why stop there - wouldn't we need to burrow right down to the Planck scale and even beyond. One might then have to decide whether string theory or LQG or CDT or whatever is the correct TOE before being comfortable our exhaustive accounting is done good and proper. And let's not forget the real world contributions of friction, hysteresis, imperfect 'transducer' conversion efficiencies, finite acoustic wave generation effects, etc etc. What an ungodly mess! But the OP surely intended an idealized gedanken experiment where extraneous issues are ignored. Surely what matters is how gravity effects an otherwise straightforward power loop - sans gravity we agree their is nothing to consider here; just conversion from one form of energy/power to another, and thence recycle continuously. The intention is to find that the gravitational metric transformations top re bottom are consistent, and here we rely on the universality of such transformations.

As I asked you in #98 and repeat here: "Do you accept that whether a force is of electrical or mechanical origin, it will transform under gravitational potential exactly the same?" If you would care to answer that this time around, we can decide whether you still have a real issue. If your answer is no, well straight away I will construct a perpetuum mobile for your consideration from that choice. (I have only just realized there IS a real issue with mechanical transmission in a gravitational field in a more general setting using Schwarzschild metric, but none that applies to the OP's setup and our discussion of that)

 

[danR]

As I asked you in #98 and repeat here: "Do you accept that whether a force is of electrical or mechanical origin, it will transform under gravitational potential exactly the same?" If you would care to answer that this time around, we can decide whether you still have a real issue. If your answer is no, well straight away I will construct a perpetuum mobile for your consideration from that choice. (I have only just realized there IS a real issue with mechanical transmission in a gravitational field in a more general setting using Schwarzschild metric, but none that applies to the OP's setup and our discussion of that)

The question is complex, so I will break it into parts:

The force is electromagnetic whether electrical (deBroglie) or mechanical (bond distortion). (Addendum: I'm satisfied that the exchange interaction is akin to quantum entanglement/correlation, is not a force, is FTL-instantaneous, cannot do work, cannot carry a signal, etc. and is not a significant component in this machine.)

Its exchange particle is the photon.

The photon solus, or part of a photon/bond domino cascade up the GR field, will lose energy exactly as the down photon gains.

I think we have to swap pronouns: you have to decide whether we have an issue. I think the matter is resolved, and answers to Guss' machine: the down and up photon energies are GR-symmetric. It will make a fine mobile, but not a classical perpetual motion machine that will solve our energy needs.

 

[Q-reeus]

...I think we have to swap pronouns: you have to decide whether we have an issue. I think the matter is resolved, and answers to Guss' machine: the down and up photon energies are GR-symmetric. It will make a fine mobile, but not a classical perpetual motion machine that will solve our energy needs.

As long as we all agree we have a mobile and not a perpetuum mobile then if you and I are happy with our different perspectives, fine. No big deal - time for a kit-kat.

 

[danR]

As long as we all agree we have a mobile and not a perpetuum mobile then if you and I are happy with our different perspectives, fine. No big deal - time for a kit-kat.

Also, all the big kids seem to have left the playground; but at least if we're both wrong, nobody important seems to care.