Is there a limit to how much energy can be stored in a photon?

[Pseudo Epsilon]

hi all, I have a couple of questions.

is there a limit to how much energy can be stored in a photon?

And why does the spectrum only go to gamma rays?

And what is the higest observed energy and what made it ?

Thanx in advance

 

[Khashishi]

There is no limit to how much energy there can be in a photon, unless you start getting into some speculative theories.

 

[tom.stoer]

There is no upper limit. The energy E is simply E=hf, and the frequency f can be arbitrary high. The only question is whether the are processes via which high-energy photons a produced.

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

what would be above gamma rays? And how could these be produced.

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

and what is the higest frequency photon observed?

 

[Bill_K]

and what is the higest frequency photon observed?

The highest measured energy is 16 TeV. At least, that's what it says here.

 

[Nugatory]

The highest measured energy is 16 TeV. At least, that's what it says here.

That's 16 Joules as I read the wiki... an almost mind-boggling number, enough energy to be macroscopically observable.

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

the wiki article implies the existence of up to 10Eev

 

[Amol Pakhare]

There is a limit to absorbed an energy into a photon. Some theories don't let us think that... eg., Quantum Theory and basic principle laws of Quantum Mechanics, for that we have to do research on it.

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

can any known proces produce 100 Eev photons?

 

[tom.stoer]

There is a limit to absorbed an energy into a photon. Some theories don't let us think that... eg., Quantum Theory and basic principle laws of Quantum Mechanics, for that we have to do research on it.

If you don't know any such theory, what makes you believe that there is one?

 

[glengarry]

I'm not sure that you can say a photon is anything besides energy. Is there a limit to the amount of energy stored in energy o_0 ?

 

[Bill_K]

I'm not sure that you can say a photon is anything besides energy. Is there a limit to the amount of energy stored in energy o_0 ?

A photon is not just disembodied energy! It exists, with a full set of properties, on the same basis as all the other elementary particles. In addition to energy and momentum it carries one unit ħ of spin, has space parity -1, charge parity -1, and couples to a conserved quantity, namely the charge-current 4-vector.

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

once again, can any KNOWN process generate hypotheticly, 100 Eev photons? If so please give me the name.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There is not a limit.

Proof: Consider the following: suppose there were a maximum energy, E_max. You create a source of photons of energy E_max. Now you start walking towards it, blueshifting them. Now their energy is greater than E_max.

 

[glengarry]

A photon is not just disembodied energy!

Hehe, I'm saying that it is disembodied because it has no dimensions in classical space. All of those quantum numbers are not what I would normally think of as a "body"... Perhaps you could think of all of those numbers as being vectors in Hilbert space. Then I guess you could say it's "embodied"!

 

[tom.stoer]

once again, can any KNOWN process generate hypotheticly, 100 Eev photons? If so please give me the name.

You can annihilate an electron-positron pair with sufficiently high energy.
You can blue shift a photon (e.g. the cosmic background radiation) to arbitrary high energy by accelerating yourself.

 

[Popper]

is there a limit to how much energy can be stored in a photon?

As mentioned above the answer is no. Although saying that a photon stores energy seems like a quirky way to put it.

And why does the spectrum only go to gamma rays?

I would hazard go guess that the term gamma ray refers to any photon above a certain energy so that the photon energy levels to the right of all observed gamma rays corresponds also to gamma rays.

It's theoretically possible to move at any speed relative to a source of photons. As such you can move as close to the speed of light as you wish. The faster you go relative to the source of photons the higher the photons energy will be and as such there is no theoretical upper bound to the energy of gamma rays.

 

[Borek]

Note that while there is no limit on the energy of a single photon, there is a limit on the energy of the photons coming to us from distant sources. If they have energy high enough they will interact with the background radiation, so they will be filtered out. Google for Greisen–Zatsepin–Kuzmin limit.

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

what hapens if photon a with 10Eev energy and photon b with same energy collide head on? And what if three with the same energy collide with equal angles away from each other?

 

[tom.stoer]

what hapens if photon a with 10Eev energy and photon b with same energy collide head on?

In each collision a pair of charged particle/antiparticle is produced. Depending on the particle species further particle production will occure. If e.g. an electron-positron pair is created, nothing else happens. If a quark-antiquark pair is produced the will hadronize in two jets.

 

[Popper]

what hapens if photon a with 10Eev energy and photon b with same energy collide head on? And what if three with the same energy collide with equal angles away from each other?

There is something called photon-photon scattering. I believe that the scattering cross section is quite small though. So for the most part they don't interact. I don't know much about this process but you can learn more about it at http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/p11-144

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

why does that happen if i may ask. Why for example don't they superpose like a clasical transverse wave?

 

[tom.stoer]

Why ... don't they superpose like a clasical transverse wave?

They do.

The two-photon state is (in the QFT-sense) the linear superposition of two one-photon states.

But due to the non-linearity encoded in the photon-fermion interaction term of the Hamiltonian (in Feynman diagram language the photon-fermion vertex), the S-matrix contains diffent channels

Besides the trivial (classical) non-interacting channel

|2\gamma\rangle \to |2\gamma\rangle

there are (infinitly many) interacting channels, e.g.

|2\gamma\rangle \to |e^+\,e^-\rangle

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

the wiki article on two-photon physics doesn't contain much info, any good links?

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

and is there a lower limit? Theoreticly there is none but is there a point where the frequency of a radio wave is too low for an electron to emit?

 

[SteamKing]

That's 16 Joules as I read the wiki... an almost mind-boggling number, enough energy to be macroscopically observable.

According to the wiki article:

10 TeV = 16 Micro Joules, so 16 TeV = 25.6 Micro Joules.

10Eev = 16 Joules

 

[LURCH]

There is no upper limit. The energy E is simply E=hf, and the frequency f can be arbitrary high. The only question is whether the are processes via which high-energy photons a produced.

But frequency is inversely related to wavelength, right? Can wavelength be arbitrarily short? What if a photon contains so much energy that the wavelength is shorter than Planck length; can that photon exist? I have also heard the statement (here in the Forums, actually) that there is a lower limit, if you envision a wavelength too long to fit within the universe. Those are some pretty exterme scenarios, but do they make sense on theoretically?

 

[Nugatory]

But frequency is inversely related to wavelength, right? Can wavelength be arbitrarily short? What if a photon contains so much energy that the wavelength is shorter than Planck length; can that photon exist?

Take a look at this thread and especially the posts by phinds and vanadium50:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=689477&highlight=Planck+length

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

if a photon with wavelenth big as universe were to be produced couldn't it affect an object at the end of the universe?

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

and is there a minimum frequency that an electron can emit?

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

otherwise an electron at zero kelvin could emit a photon tap into zero point energy by emmiting a radio wave with a very long wavelenth?

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

Take a look at this thread and especially the posts by phinds and vanadium50:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=689477&highlight=Planck+length

so the universe is definantly finite?

 

[e.chaniotakis]

Well, about high energy gammas, the most energetic ones are produced in violent phenomena in the cosmos.
(e.g in AGN's , GRBs etc).
There are also photons produced in the p+γ(CMB)->π0 +p, π0->γγ
The maximum energy gained by photons this way is of order ~10^19 eV.

The gammas however interact with CMB photons via the γ+γ=>e+e process and rapidly lose energy this way
Electrons on the other hand either interact via inverse compton or by bremsstrahlung and create more photons which interact/radiate again, leading to measured photons in the GeV-TeV range on earth.

These are the gammas we measure in our air shower arrays:)

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

there a has to be a limit tn mthe lowest frequency,otherwise an electron at zero kelvin could emit a photon tap into zero point energy by emmiting a radio wave with a very long wavelenth. Where is my logic faulty?

 

[mikeph]

"zero kelvin electron" sounds a bit faulty

If there is no limit to the universal rate of expansion then I see no limit to the amount of cosmological red-shift endured by a photon, and so no limit on the wavelength of a photon. If the cosmic expansion continues, which looks fairly likely, surely an unattenuated photon will eventually have an arbitrarily long wavelength after enough time elapses.

 

[e.chaniotakis]

About the GZK cutoff, yes it exists (or so we believe) which prohibits us from observing protons more energetic than 6*10^19 eV (taken that the interaction length of the proton in the CMB is lower than the proton source- Earth distance). Of course, there might be a way for a (e.g)10^25eV proton to be created and its interactions to create high energy gammas before it is attenuated by the CMB.. Just speculating.
Or there might be some more exotic production channels for gammas that do not respect the GZK cutoff.. But these are all speculations (to be answered by Pierre Augere and IceCube hopefully).

About why gamma gamma interactions occure, check the so called "Delbruck scattering".
Now, about the low energy photons I have no better explanation than the one proposed by MikeyW

 

[OmCheeto]

There is not a limit.

Proof: Consider the following: suppose there were a maximum energy, E_max. You create a source of photons of energy E_max. Now you start walking towards it, blueshifting them. Now their energy is greater than E_max.

I like Lurch's argument about the "Planck length".


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pppppppppppppps. Why is this in the "General Physics" section?
and yes, I did self sensor my "I'm smarter than Einstein and Feynman combined, to the 12th power!", 47 comments

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

it was moved from general physics.

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

it was moved from quantum physics.

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

concerning blue and redshifting: if you travel at c parellel to light the magnetic component disapears. What happens concerning the magnetic part of em radiation if a tachyon is traveling parellel to it?0_0

 

[OmCheeto]

I like Lurch's argument about the "Planck length".


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pppppppppppppps. Why is this in the "General Physics" section?
and yes, I did self sensor my "I'm smarter than Einstein and Feynman combined, to the 12th power!", 47 comments

hmmm... Regarding V50's comment, the extractable energy of the universe, and the "Oh My God Particle" I studied this morning;

The particle was traveling very close to the speed of light — assuming the particle was a proton, its speed was only about 1.5 femtometers (quadrillionths of a meter) per second less than the speed of light, translating to a speed of approximately 0.9999999999999999999999951c.

Given that I have a mass of roughly 68 kilograms, and given the limited total extractable energy of the universe to accelerate "me", relative to the "OMG Particle", there is of course, a practical limit.

unsubscribe.

 

[Pseudo Epsilon]

concerning blue and redshifting: if you travel at c parellel to light the magnetic component disapears. What happens concerning the magnetic part of em radiation if a tachyon is traveling parellel to it?0_0

and what would happen?