Is this equation from my lecture notes wrong? (RE: Transfer Functions)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the correctness of equations related to transfer functions presented in lecture notes, specifically focusing on first-order and second-order transfer functions and their responses to unit sine wave inputs. Participants explore the implications of these equations in terms of standard forms, natural frequencies, and DC gain.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant identifies potential mistakes in the equations for first-order and second-order transfer functions, suggesting that the numerator may be missing terms related to standard forms.
  • Another participant argues that the original quotes do not necessarily imply mistakes, as they do not mention standard form or unity DC-gain.
  • A participant expresses confusion about the equations and questions whether the natural undamped frequency and damping coefficient can still be identified from the given equations despite not being in standard form.
  • There is a discussion about whether the equations can be rewritten in standard form to clarify the natural undamped frequency and DC gain representation.
  • One participant clarifies that the dynamics of the systems are determined by their pole locations and that rewriting the equations is not necessary.
  • It is noted that a system in standard form has unity DC-gain, and the numerator alone does not represent the DC-gain.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the equations presented in the lecture notes contain mistakes. There are multiple competing views regarding the interpretation of the equations and their implications for understanding transfer functions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights uncertainties regarding the definitions of terms like natural undamped frequency and DC gain in the context of non-standard forms of transfer functions. There are unresolved questions about the relationship between the given equations and their standard forms.

CraigH
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Mistake 1.

In the lecture slides from my university it says that:

"The response of a stable first-order transfer function to a unit sine wave input is:"

Y(s)=\frac{1}{s+a}*\frac{\omega}{s^2+\omega^2}

Isn't this missing an a in the numerator since the standard form of a first order transfer function is:

H(s) = \frac{1}{\tau s +1} = \frac{a}{s+a}

where \tau=1/a

and the laplace transform of the sine wave input is:

\frac{\omega}{s^2+\omega^2}

Mistake 2.

The lecture slides also say that:

"The response of a stable second-order transfer function to a unit sine wave input is:"

Y(s)=\frac{1}{s^2+2\zeta\omega_n+\omega_n^2}*\frac{\omega}{s^2+\omega^2}

Similarly, isn't this missing an \omega_n^2 in the numerator as the standard form of a second order transfer function is:

H(s) = \frac{\omega_n^2}{s^2+2 \zeta \omega_n s + \omega_n^2}
 
Last edited:
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For your first two cases, I wouldn't necessarily call them mistakes. Your quotes do not mention anything about standard form. The systems do not have unity DC-gain, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

I can't really guess as to what's going on in your last case without seeing some context.
 
Thanks for your answer. The last case was just the same equation split into partial fractions. I misread the addition for multiplication. I've deleted that part of the question now.

As for the first two transfer functions, I'm still really confused. I don't even know what questions to ask, I'm really struggling in this module. I'll just ask this though:

In the equation for "The response of a stable second-order transfer function to a unit sine wave input" is the natural undamped frequency \omega_n still given by the \omega_n in the equation, even though it is not in standard form? and likewise for the damping coefficient \zeta?

Could this equation be re-written in standard form so that it has \omega_n^2 in the numerator so that the actual natural undamped frequency can be found?

If the numerator in the given transfer function represents the DC-gain, then what represents the DC gain in the standard form equation?

Thanks again!
 
CraigH said:
In the equation for "The response of a stable second-order transfer function to a unit sine wave input" is the natural undamped frequency \omega_n still given by the \omega_n in the equation, even though it is not in standard form? and likewise for the damping coefficient \zeta?
Since your systems don't have any zeros, their dynamics is determined fully by their pole locations. The poles are the roots of the denominator of the transfer functions of your systems, and since you aren't altering them in any way, nothing changes in terms of the dynamics. All that changes is the (frequency-dependent) gain.

CraigH said:
Could this equation be re-written in standard form so that it has \omega_n^2 in the numerator so that the actual natural undamped frequency can be found?
You don't have to rewrite it.

CraigH said:
If the numerator in the given transfer function represents the DC-gain, then what represents the DC gain in the standard form equation?
A system represented in the standard form always has unity DC-gain. You can easily determine this yourself using the final value theorem. Edit: The numerator alone doesn't represent its DC-gain.
 

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