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Israel and Israel and Jerusalem and Judaism

  1. Feb 9, 2007 #1
    I would like to briefly share an opinion as a non-practicing russian jew and united states citizen living in california.

    I feel like many jews I know (including a good friend of mine - an argument I just had with her led me to start this thread) are making a fatal conceptual error in regards to Israel.

    Israel is a country. Israel is a government.

    Israel the government has nothing to do with Israel the location, otherwise known as the (and this applies to many religions) holy land of Jerusalem. In other words Israel the government has nothing to do with Judaism.

    As a Jew (if one were devout), one should not feel obligated to support Israel simply because it is supposedly a "jewish" state. Israel is a country and governments act only in the interest of the nation - religion is of secondary concern in this respect.

    In the United States we (supposedly...) have a separation of church and state.

    These things seem very clear to me - however it feels like as a Jew I am very much in a minority on my opinion in this matter.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2007
  2. jcsd
  3. Feb 9, 2007 #2
    hello sluga otechestva, as not Jew I can't comment on Israel. this topic just caught my eye since I've been in Israel twice. I can comment that in my country I feel just the same, government is not equal to location. Then, in Israel I have been under impression that some arabs just can't calm down, after everybody else did. I mean, there are plenty of arabs who accepted Israel government and have no problem living there, so why can't others do the same? It does not matter who rules; as long as it is not me, I would't really care if the president is jew or arab. Their war just does not make any sense.
     
  4. Feb 9, 2007 #3
    (oh wait I was tricked by "russian" in your post. I didn't realized "slug" was meaningful english word)
     
  5. Feb 9, 2007 #4
  6. Feb 11, 2007 #5
    (israeli)
    israel after all was founded not by religious people, and not for religious reasons.
    it was founded as a shelter for jews to immigrant to when they must.
    the government was never religious(though there are some annoying rules).
    also, more and more people walk astray from religion, many people do perform jewish rituals, but most people just celebrate pesah, and hanuka...

    but i have no doubt that israel will be a shelter for jews as long as it exists.

    i myself, dont feel much about anything like tradition or love for the motherland, it might change if i will be off israel for a few months or years, but right now, i pretty much care only about my family and some friends...

    btw, im atheist, though i still attend to the kidush(and all other holidays) with my family every week, some of us see it as tradition and a family dinner, and for some (including me) its a family dinner. i did use to attend also to the synagogue when i was young, heh, ive been there fot 9 hours in yom kipur..
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2007
  7. Feb 11, 2007 #6
    In an interview I heard from one of the refusniks a while back on the radio (Democracy Now), the problem he saw with jews in this country is that they pray to israel and not to God.

    I find this to be true from most Jews I've come across (American Jews).
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2007
  8. Feb 12, 2007 #7
    I urge you to try and get a copy of Yeshayahu Leibowitz's "Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish State".
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2007
  9. Feb 12, 2007 #8
    How would you expect them to do anything but resist colonization? Natives of areas like Australia and the Americas certainly resisted the foreigners settling those lands, what sense does it make to expect anything different from Arabs?
     
  10. Feb 12, 2007 #9
    The key word here is occupation. In my opinion, the state of Israel is the biggest outrage/injustice of our time. I'm so disappointed in the western civ.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2007
  11. Feb 13, 2007 #10
    Frankly I think the card has been played, Yes the victim of abuse gets a little leeway while settling down, but when you settle by mandate on otherwise owned property and then the settlers become expansionist, while developing nukes, then complain that others might have the same, and are upset that there is resistance, and so forth and so on, meanwhile you have US foreign policy strongly divided between loyalty to the have nots in Israel (oil wise), and those that have oil, but no political tread in the US, well what would be the best solution?.

    From US foreign policy perspective. Give lots of support to Israel while fomenting dissent between any would be allies among the Arabs.

    It has worked so far. ?????
     
  12. Feb 13, 2007 #11
    not only this comment has nothing to do with this thread, it also has nothing to do with reality. which led me to a very big "wtf" after reading your comment.
    also some other comments has nothing to do with this thread since it is about the jew nation not being very jewish.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
  13. Feb 13, 2007 #12
    No the point of this thread is that there is not, and should not, be a "jew" nation - or for that matter any religious nation.

    Religion and nationality are entirely separate entities - any time they become intertwined religion becomes a tool for the state.

    The Vatican is another poor example of this sad state of affairs - however the entire catholic religion seems to be centered more about following the word of the pope than any true deity worship.

    Judaism however has never been a figurehead religion - yet somehow for american jews the prime minister of israel is the jewish pope.
     
  14. Feb 13, 2007 #13
    thats extremely odd! why would they see our leaders as popes? we ourself cant stand them! seriously, how does that happen?
     
  15. Feb 14, 2007 #14
    good question - but here in the states (at least in the California Bay Area) it is not uncommon for jewish youth groups to attend for example, pro-israel rallies.

    To me that's pretty much the story of the "evangelical" movement in support of the United States government - ah.... I can't even find the words to express my frustration.
     
  16. Feb 16, 2007 #15
    Why wouldn't they attend pro-Israel rallies? Israel is the home of the Jewish people. It has helped and continues to support Jews around the globe who are not as fortunate as those living in the United States, it is only natural that Jews will attend rallies in its support.
    How familiar are you with the history of your ancestors in the USSR?
     
  17. Feb 16, 2007 #16
    If you ask me the US is so far in Israel's corner that it can't even see Palestine, doesn't bode well for diplomatic relations IMO, in fact it just makes things worse.

    The US badly needs to stop playing favourites, and start playing mediator again, or at the very least to stop vetoing every act the UN makes against Israel, 37 now I believe? How many have they vetoed against Palestine? 0, slightly one sided :rolleyes: Partisan diplomacy will get you one thing, a partisan response.
     
  18. Feb 16, 2007 #17
    Congratulations on completely missing the point of this thread.

    Pro-Israel rallies are supportive of the Israeli administration - if you can't separate that from Judaism this thread is about you.

    My point is that Jews should neither support nor attack the Israeli government under the flag of Judaism! To do so is simple religious nationalism - which in the past has been responsible for - oh, the crusades for one ...
     
  19. Feb 16, 2007 #18
    well, actually its not about judaism, its about jews. about everyone immigrated here since they had to run away, not because of religion. if jews somewhere in the globe will need a place to run to, israel will welcome them.
    israel still is the shelter it was meant to be...
     
  20. Feb 16, 2007 #19
    yeah thats fine thats why I was trying to distinguish israel the place from israel the government :uhh:
     
  21. Feb 17, 2007 #20
    I agree that it's necessary to differentiate between Israel the government and Israel the place.

    But where the Israeli government has no jurisdiction, will Jews be able to find refuge in the land? (I hate to open this particular can of worms, but when Israel the government relinquished jurisdiction over Aza, Jews found that they could no longer live in that part of Israel the place.
     
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