Issues with my investigation in capacitance

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the investigation of how the size of a dielectric in a capacitor affects its time constant. Participants explore theoretical expectations versus experimental results, focusing on measurement challenges and potential sources of error in the setup.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that increasing the dielectric size should theoretically decrease capacitance and thus reduce the time constant, but their measurements consistently yield a time constant of 302 ms, which deviates from theoretical predictions.
  • Another participant suggests that parasitic capacitance in the experimental setup may be influencing the results and requests a schematic and image of the setup.
  • Concerns are raised about the accuracy of the oscilloscope being used, with a participant questioning whether the probe capacitance can be compensated for.
  • A participant mentions using Logger Pro for data collection and inquires about the impact of stray capacitance due to multiple wires in the setup.
  • It is proposed that the current setup may not be suitable for measuring small capacitors in the pico farad range, suggesting that op-amp circuits could be utilized to buffer signals and minimize stray capacitance effects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effectiveness of the current measurement setup for small capacitors. While some acknowledge the limitations, others propose alternative methods without reaching a consensus on the best approach.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential inaccuracies in measuring small capacitances due to parasitic effects and the capabilities of the measuring equipment used. There is also uncertainty regarding the effectiveness of suggested modifications to the experimental setup.

Filippo Ficarra
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This is a simpler issue but I need some help nonetheless. I have been carrying out an investigation on how the dielectric size of a capacitor affects its time constant. In theory the larger the dielectric the smaller the capacitance and therefore the smaller the time constant. However although I am changing my dielectric by 5 mm at a time every single time I have measured the time constant with an oscilloscope I get the same value for the time constant of 302 ms which is also off of the theoretical value by a factor of ten. I think it may be due to the fact that my capacitor is in the pico farad range therefore it is hard to measure acureately.
 
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Filippo Ficarra said:
This is a simpler issue but I need some help nonetheless. I have been carrying out an investigation on how the dielectric size of a capacitor affects its time constant. In theory the larger the dielectric the smaller the capacitance and therefore the smaller the time constant. However although I am changing my dielectric by 5 mm at a time every single time I have measured the time constant with an oscilloscope I get the same value for the time constant of 302 ms which is also off of the theoretical value by a factor of ten. I think it may be due to the fact that my capacitor is in the pico farad range therefore it is hard to measure acureately.
Yes, it sounds like the parasitic capacitance of your setup is too large. Can you post a schematic and picture of your setup? :smile:
 
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berkeman said:
Yes, it sounds like the parasitic capacitance of your setup is too large. Can you post a schematic and picture of your setup? :smile:
http://imgur.com/a/0Sm5z here is the link to my setup image. The resistor is 100 k ohm btw.
 
Filippo Ficarra said:
http://imgur.com/a/0Sm5z here is the link to my setup image. The resistor is 100 k ohm btw.
Yeah, looks like many tens of pF in just the setup and wiring alone. What are you using for an oscilloscope? Can you compensate the probe capacitance, or are the probes too simple?

You can look into how oscilloscope probe capacitance can be nulled out, to see if you can use a similar technique on your setup (after making all of the connections as small and tight and low-capacitance as possible)...
 
berkeman said:
Yeah, looks like many tens of pF in just the setup and wiring alone. What are you using for an oscilloscope? Can you compensate the probe capacitance, or are the probes too simple?

You can look into how oscilloscope probe capacitance can be nulled out, to see if you can use a similar technique on your setup (after making all of the connections as small and tight and low-capacitance as possible)...
Ok my school did not have an accurate oscilloscope so I am using logger pro to collect my data. I set it to collect 6 seconds and it takes samples every 100 milliseconds while the capacitor discharges. Is it possible that since many wires are involved their is some stray capacitance that is affecting my data?
 
Filippo Ficarra said:
Ok my school did not have an accurate oscilloscope so I am using logger pro to collect my data. I set it to collect 6 seconds and it takes samples every 100 milliseconds while the capacitor discharges. Is it possible that since many wires are involved their is some stray capacitance that is affecting my data?
Yes, that setup will not work for measuring the effects of small capacitors. You could probably measure caps in the several uF range, but not down in the pF range.

Are you familiar with opamp circuits? You could build a circuit with a few opamps that would isolate the capacitance and buffer the signals to minimize the effects of stray capacitance. You could even "bootstrap" the stray capacitance with opamps to effectively null it out... :smile:
 
berkeman said:
Yes, that setup will not work for measuring the effects of small capacitors. You could probably measure caps in the several uF range, but not down in the pF range.

Are you familiar with opamp circuits? You could build a circuit with a few opamps that would isolate the capacitance and buffer the signals to minimize the effects of stray capacitance. You could even "bootstrap" the stray capacitance with opamps to effectively null it out... :smile:
I will look into that but thanks for your help
 
You're welcome. You might try Googling something like Measuring Small Capacitance Using Opamps... :smile:

EDIT -- use Google Images...
 

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