Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

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The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is facing significant challenges following the earthquake, with reports indicating that reactor pressure has reached dangerous levels, potentially 2.1 times capacity. TEPCO has lost control of pressure at a second unit, raising concerns about safety and management accountability. The reactor is currently off but continues to produce decay heat, necessitating cooling to prevent a meltdown. There are conflicting reports about an explosion, with indications that it may have originated from a buildup of hydrogen around the containment vessel. The situation remains serious, and TEPCO plans to flood the containment vessel with seawater as a cooling measure.
  • #5,581
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110501p2g00m0dm005000c.html"

Japan will have to get used to Western satire, next I presume they will claim the Hollywood rights

they already protested regarding below cartoon published 21 April in the Herald Tribune
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/assets/201104/0422023.jpg
fortunately they are not that fanatical and and respond by issuing a fatwa.
 
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Engineering news on Phys.org
  • #5,582
Astronuc said:
Roof of unit 3 is covered by debris.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110415_1f_3_4.jpg

Looking at the damage to #3 and the explosion, I suspect that the roof frame was lifted to some extent and then fell back more or less in place. The pillars on the N, W, and S sides were torn away, and all but two of its attachment points on the E side were broken too. So I think that the roof frame pivoted on the E side like the lid of a sardine can, by some unknown angle, during the explosion That would have left a path for some items to be thrown from the service floor on higher trajectories, hence to greater distances.

However that may be irrelevant. To my eyes, the bright flash seen at the start of the explosion apparently occurred in the SFP region, and blasted through the S wall (so that we could see it) before the damage had time to spread rest of the building. The flash rules out a steam explosion. Could a hydrogen explosion behave that way? (I would expect a flameless explosion affecting the entire building at the same time, like that of #1.)

Guesses are cheap, so I would guess a mini nuclear explosion in the SFP -- the flash -- that ignited the hydrogen. Unlikely?

(PS. An overdue grant report has prevented me from updating my NISA plots since release 114. Right when some action is happening, darn. I'll catch up on Wednesday, hopefully...)
 
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  • #5,583
AntonL said:
flooding reactor 1 leaves tepco puzzled and cooling rate back to 6m3/h

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110502p2a00m0na012000c.html

From the article,
Officials said the water level inside the reactor's pressure vessel remained almost unchanged -- at about 1.6 meters above the top of the fuel rods -- when the amount of water was temporarily increased. With water pumped into the pressure vessel leaking out, workers estimate that the water level inside the containment vessel stands at about 6 meters, but they do not know the exact level.
Things like this are part of the reason why they don't release more information such as engineering drawings of the plant and reactors. If they did release such information we would know in about 10 minutes, and that would make them look bad. I sincerely hope the desire of most Japanese people is to act responsibly and not be slaves to their cultural need to save face. I think portrayals in the media of Japanese nuclear experts, TEPCO chiefs and government officials depicting them as clowns are not far away, and would not be far from the truth.
 
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  • #5,584
Arizonan said:
The Gunderson video from fairewinds.com,. From his analysis of the data,
As I said , he is referring to a US report that say that one could speculate that , and M.Gunderson, make it a hard fact, multiplying the range by 2. I provided a proper analysis with link to the material last week. Point is it a assessment base on a theory he elaborated not based on had fact.
I now question the rigor of his analysis and his will to correct him self. I already challenged his alleged Spent fuell rack theory a while back when he explained solely based on a shady low resolution video that the fuel rack of the pool 4 were sticking out the pool . Without his experience proper photo analysis was rather pointing to his alleged rack being part of the Crane. This was confirm later but he never retracted.

So If I value the insight Gunderson can provide, I won't for granted. And to be honest the cumulative contradictory contribution of this thread is for me more trustworthy.


********

Thank you rowmag , was the evac zone / order to take iodine made in accordance to the data now released ?
 
  • #5,585
|Fred said:
Thank you rowmag , was the evac zone / order to take iodine made in accordance to the data now released ?

The evacuation zones were decided based on similar plots, but not sure whether exactly these ones. These plots show the estimated exposures received so far, and the evacuation zones were, I believe, based on projections of exposures expected over the next year. (Not sure how those were calculated, whether they extrapolated from present estimated ground contamination patterns, or whether they did something fancier, such as using SPEEDI with typical wind patterns over the course of a typical year, and some assumption about ongoing emissions...)

Anyway, there have been several such maps shown, and they all have the general features of one big pseudopod going up to the North-West, and a smaller one down to the South-West, but they differ in various details after that. The people living in the northwest pseudopod (beyond the circular zone that is already under evacuation orders), in the towns of Iitatemura and surrounding areas, have been told to evacuate by the end of this month. The people in the southwest pseudopod (in the town of Iwaki) have not, if I recall correctly.

I don't think any orders to take potassium iodide have been issued, by the way, just evacuation orders.
 
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  • #5,586
Ms Music said:
Someone told me the other day that pieces of fuel had been found a few miles (or kilometers) from Dai ichi. Is this confirmed?

It has not been confirmed by any primary source that I know of, but perhaps indicated by a secondary source. If you was practically able to track the information you got back to where it came from etcetera, I'd expect the trail to lead you to a NRC report from March 26th. According to this report neutron sources have been found up to 1 mile away from the reactors. In the context of the NRC report, 'neutron sources' would be understood as another way of saying 'something from the fuel', and NRC would be understood as talking not from thin air, but from information available to it, and originating, in the eyes of the NRC, from a primary source.

Or bogus?

The bit 'a few miles', I think can be dismissed as bogus. No credible source I know of has talked about anything from fuel being found at that distance.

It is implausible that the events in unit 1, 2, or 4 could have been the source of ejection of fuel fragments for anything even coming close to a km or a mile.

As regards unit 3, I think the jury is still out. I think it is beyond discussion that some material from unit 3 -- I am talking here in general terms, not particularly or necessarily about material from fuel -- was ejected to distances up to the 1 km range by the events in unit 3. Should this ejection have encomprised material from fuel, it would have to be material from the spent fuel pool, or from the core. What was once the service floor of unit 3 is a mess, and we know preciously little about its conditions. Personally I find it implausible if the events in unit 3 did not eject material from fuel.
 
  • #5,587
Jorge Stolfi said:
Looking at the damage to #3<..> To my eyes, the bright flash seen at the start of the explosion apparently occurred in the SFP region, and blasted through the S wall (so that we could see it) before the damage had time to spread rest of the building. The flash rules out a steam explosion. Could a hydrogen explosion behave that way? (I would expect a flameless explosion affecting the entire building at the same time, like that of #1.)

It is clear from the video, that the explosion in unit 1 was not a flameless explosion. The explosion was however quite brief, compared to the flame/fire phenomena seen during the unit 3 explosion, the briefness consistent with its being a hydrogen detonation.

Unit 3 otoh, put on display fire/flame phenomena lasting for at least 0.4 seconds during the inital phase of the explosion. And after the explosion, in the remains of unit 3 we see evidence that intense heat has been present during the explosion for long enough to melt and burn away steel and concrete structures. The long durance of the flame phenomena, and the presence of such destructive intense heat, seem to me quite inconsistent with the explosions being (only) a hydrogen explosion.
 
  • #5,590
MadderDoc said:
... in the remains of unit 3 we see evidence that intense heat has been present during the explosion for long enough to melt and burn away steel and concrete structures.
Can you please give me some links to this part of the topic?

Just one more guess about the explosion of U3:
- Boom one: I think the initial explosion was a hydrogen explosion above the service floor, with minor damages on structures below the floor: this part was similar with the explosion of U4. The differences from the U1 explosion were because the upper building of U1 is steel, not concrete. At this point the pillars of the upper building were gone on the south and north wall.

- Boom two: my guess is that this part was a originated from the lower building, somewhere on the north side. Maybe because of a hydrogen release from a torus-failure, like in U2, ignited by the first explosion. (There was that PDF not so long ago about GE MK1 simulated failures). This explosion ripped the northwest corner of the building, with a strong NW and upward momentum, with a lot of debris, some of them contaminated. At this point the pillars on the west side were gone.

- Boom three: with the pillars gone the overhead crane fall down and pushed the FHM (did anybody managed to find that damned FHM of U3? It's not on the top of SFP, not on the top of equipment pool, but these parts are mostly intact, so after two weeks of pixel-hunting of every available footage and pic I see no other place for it than below the crane) through the upper concrete plug of the containment and released a lot of really hot steam, maybe with some hydrogen, maybe ignited on free air.

Any ideas, comments on this sequence?
 
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  • #5,591
Some questions from this article:
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110502p2a00m0na012000c.html

1)
Furthermore, when workers increased the amount of water pumped into the containment vessel, pressure inside the vessel fell, threatening a hydrogen explosion. As a result, workers had to once again reduce the amount of water. When pressure inside the containment vessel falls to a level near regular atmospheric pressure, oxygen can enter the container from outside and react with hydrogen inside to produce an explosion.

Could somebody explains me why pressure inside the RPV is dropping when injected water volume increases from 6 to 14 M3/h, whereas it seems there is no increase in the water level inside the RPV which stays at around 1,6 meters below the the top of fuel rods (i would say maybe: below what was the top of fuel rods as they are probably gone since a long time and relocated lower into the reactor in the water). To me it doesn't make sense.

2) second question related to this extract: why do they consider that if pressure falls inside the RPV towards a value close to 1 atm, there could be oxygen coming from the outside, IF THE CONTAINMENT IS NOT DAMAGED? I know that Tepco said once it could be damaged (and i think what they say here with oxygen is confirming this hypothesis) but as they said almost everything and its contrary on many subjects if you look back, this part of the explanation is a little bit fuzzy to me...

3) other question from this extract:
On May 1 TEPCO announced that it had pumped about 120 tons of water from the turbine building of the No. 6 reactor into a makeshift tank. The level of accumulated water, totaling roughly 4,900 tons, stands at about 2 meters. Its level of radioactivity is thought to be relatively low.

Ok so we have now 4900 tons of water, or 2 meters of water, inside the turbine building of N°6 reactor...

So again what are the hypothesis for this water, if we believe Tepco statement that there is no internal link from the reactor on this one (i saw some graphics on this thread which showed data that could contradict this, with level inside RPV going up and down at regular intervals, and same thing with temps. But?). A) This could be water left from the flooding of the tsunami, but it would not increase along the time; so there must be a continuous flow, right? B) Did the water level of the water table under the Daichi plant moved upward with the tsunami and so there is part of the basement which is now under the water table surface?

But personnaly, i cannot fully remove from the scope the hypothesis of an internal leakage of this reactor (which is cooled by the internal cooling system, instead of external open loop "cooling" (low efficiency) on the n°1 to 3). The radioactivity of this water is "thought to be relatively low" doesn't tell you more, right?
 
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  • #5,592
#3 RPV is 205C now, why ?
also only 1,6m water in #1 SFP
 
  • #5,593
georgiworld said:
These numbers must be horrifying to people who understand their significance.

Quite the opposite - they can be horrifying to those who DON'T understand their significance, so they were not release to not start the panic.

I am not saying that's the case, just pointing out you are jumping to conclusions.

MiceAndMen said:
Things like this are part of the reason why they don't release more information such as engineering drawings of the plant and reactors. If they did release such information we would know in about 10 minutes

Don't underestimate them, don't overestimate yourself.
 
  • #5,594
jlduh said:
Some questions from this article:
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110502p2a00m0na012000c.html

1) Could somebody explains me why pressure inside the RPV is dropping when injected water volume increases

2) second question related to this extract: why do they consider that if pressure falls inside the RPV towards a value close to 1 atm, there could be oxygen coming from the outside, IF THE CONTAINMENT IS NOT DAMAGED?

1. Water inside RPV gets less hot. Steam production drops. Pressure drops. Oops.
2. The containment IS damaged, obviously, or else they would have filled it many times over with all the water they've been pumping in.

The hole(s) in the RPV _must_ be somewhere below water level or else they would have atmospheric pressure above it. I do not believe in hairline cracks in the RPV above water level not getting worse after a month.

So, what mechanism is left, that would allow air from the outside, but only when pressure drops below atmospheric? Well... sounds like a check valve, no? Something that right now is being held shut by pressure inside the RPV, but which would hang open if that pressure went away.

I think there is a big hole or a number of smaller holes on the bottom of the RPV. The drywell ("bulb") is thus flooded and the water drains out of it into the basements and steams into the atmosphere through one or more holes (pipes, instrumentation, wiring, end-cap even, maybe). These are probably a bit above the level at which water in the RPV is (the steam in the RPV is pushing down, but not by much).

The good news is that in this scenario fuel is submerged and being reasonably cooled all the way down, including whatever portion of it may have dropped on the drywell floor. The semi-bad news is the water is leaching all sorts of nastyness out.
 
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  • #5,595
elektrownik said:
#3 RPV is 205C now, why ?
also only 1,6m water in #1 SFP

Where do you see this data, elektrownik?
 
  • #5,596
MadderDoc said:
Where do you see this data, elektrownik?

Here: http://www.meti.go.jp/press/2011/05/20110503001/20110503001-3.pdf (last page)
 
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  • #5,597
Well, if i look at some data from speedi system, in the North west of Daichi some readings are around 20 to 37 micro SV/h, which is 175 mSv/year to 320 mSv/year if we assume a constant dose, less if we assume some future decay of course, depending on which isotopes is responsible for these values.

http://www.mext.go.jp/component/english/__icsFiles/afieldfile/2011/05/02/1305674_050219.pdf

But note that these values are the ones the 2nd of May so decay of I-131 from early deposits has already happened, and the values are still high. So either these values are from isotopes with much lower decay time (Cs for example) or there has been ongoing deposits.

Again, these values are just radiation data per h, and not real absorbed doses, which again can involved much more complex phenomenon of concentration through ingestion, inhalation depending of what people do, touch, eat, and drink. Alpha and betas doses then have to complete the picture of gamma doses for a complete full understanding of the health effects.

Does the speedi system gives some "projection" of absorbed doses by the way -if somebody found it?

Just a remark: at the end of the pdf there is a page with chart showing comparison between various absorbed doses. Just note that these doses are in microSV/year, so it would be fair to make it easy for people -who are not experts in nuclear matters- reading this page to express the values and the chart in the same unit, don't you think? One french frie is one part of a potato, so it make it strange and useless to compare the two.

Also, i find always a little bit tendancious to just mention that for example Guaripari levels in Brazil are 10 Msv/year (and even higher on the beach sands, but ok let 's say very few are spending one full year on the beach!), without precising that more studies tend to show that the population there (or in other places with high "natural" levels) have higher cancers rates than average:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7581-4FJT8MK-13&_user=10&_coverDate=02/28/2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1738762424&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=907ad049822bb6f73609384f1368d09b&searchtype=a

http://rpd.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/08/05/rpd.ncq187.abstract

More research has still to be done on this matter i think.

For a long time radon has not been a concern, but now with more an more research it is known to be a serious factor in some areas in France for example.

Explaining that something is not dangerous because it is "natural" is a weak argument. Asbestos is also natural, oil is also natural, and it can be very dangerous depending on where it is in the body of a living organism!
 
  • #5,598
MadderDoc said:
Where do you see this data, elektrownik?

I read 116°C and 135°C for the RPV temps. NO?

EDIT: ok i see the 205°C in the last page. But i don't know what is this specific temp (maybe someone who reads japanese?) as on the sketches of the reactors the two temps indicated are 116 and 135°C...

It is indicated related to RPV but it is also in a "D/W" (dry well) line, so i don't know what it is actually?
 
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  • #5,599
elektrownik said:
#3 RPV is 205C now, why ?
also only 1,6m water in #1 SFP

As I have learned the "skimmer level" is not the water level in the SFP
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110418e5.pdf"

The temperature is rising since the last days, but is still lower than the highest readings in the past. So maybe it does not explode by now ;)
 
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  • #5,600
jlduh said:
I read 116°C and 135°C for the RPV temps. NO?

EDIT: ok i see the 205°C in the last page. But i don't know what is this specific temp (maybe someone who reads japanese?) as on the sketches of the reactors the two temps indicated are 116 and 135°C...

The 205°C is "RPV bellows seal"
 
  • #5,601
Found this doc on Nisa site, with kind of glossary of terms used in measurements at DAICHI. Don't know if this was already posted here but it may be useful:

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110423-4-5.pdf

Note this:
Measuring instrument malfunction Measuring instrument malfunction: Down(Over)scale
/Indicator malfunction Situation as of 22:00 April 22nd

-Unit1 Spent Fuel Pool water temperature and CAMS D/W radiation monitors
-Unit2 Temperature at the Bottom Head of RPV, S/C Pressure and RPV bellows
seal temperature
-Unit3 Spent Fuel Pool water temperature and FPC Skimmer Surge Tank level
-Unit4 Spent Fuel Pool water temperature

Now the question: what is the bellows seal?
 
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  • #5,602
zapperzero said:
TEPCO lied about Fukushima Dai-ni being in cold shutdown (but maybe we knew that already? we really need a timeline):
http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFL3E7FL2HE20110421

May I ask what leads you to think there is a lie about Daini being Shut down ?
The linked article surely state the opposite..
 
  • #5,603
rowmag said:
The evacuation zones were decided based on similar plots, but not sure whether exactly these ones. These plots show the estimated exposures received so far, and the evacuation zones were, I believe, based on projections of exposures expected over the next year. (Not sure how those were calculated, whether they extrapolated from present estimated ground contamination patterns, or whether they did something fancier, such as using SPEEDI with typical wind patterns over the course of a typical year, and some assumption about ongoing emissions...)

Anyway, there have been several such maps shown, and they all have the general features of one big pseudopod going up to the North-West, and a smaller one down to the South-West, but they differ in various details after that. The people living in the northwest pseudopod (beyond the circular zone that is already under evacuation orders), in the towns of Iitatemura and surrounding areas, have been told to evacuate by the end of this month. The people in the southwest pseudopod (in the town of Iwaki) have not, if I recall correctly.

I don't think any orders to take potassium iodide have been issued, by the way, just evacuation orders.

the evacuation orders, in case we already forgot the history, were initially 20km circle, and 30km stay indoors, and remained as that for a long long while.
It really is amazing how quickly history can be altered.
 
  • #5,604
New video from #1 unit: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110503_1.zip
 
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  • #5,605
from Dmytry
the evacuation orders, in case we already forgot the history, were initially 20km circle, and 30km stay indoors, and remained as that for a long long while

That's also my understanding.

To introduce more precision, then there has been a time in April when, while keeping these evacuation and "stay inside" statements, the government "adviced" people between 20 and 30 kms to evacuate on a "voluntarily basis".

Then there has been a recent evacuation order for some specific places outside of the 20 and even 30 kms zone, especially Litate area. That's were I'm at now.
 
  • #5,606
this seems to be SFP unit 4.



sorry, posted and discussed earlier! (p342)
 
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  • #5,607
Rive said:
Can you please give me some links to this part of the topic?

I wish I could, but I've seen no one else mention it. However, I can offer a look at the remains of this part of the roof girder construction.
unit4_heat_damage.jpg

How on Earth should one go about making a steel construction look this way without using heat?

Just one more guess about the explosion of U3:
- Boom one: I think the initial explosion was a hydrogen explosion above the service floor, with minor damages on structures below the floor: this part was similar with the explosion of U4. The differences from the U1 explosion were because the upper building of U1 is steel, not concrete. At this point the pillars of the upper building were gone on the south and north wall.

- Boom two: my guess is that this part was a originated from the lower building, somewhere on the north side. Maybe because of a hydrogen release from a torus-failure, like in U2, ignited by the first explosion. (There was that PDF not so long ago about GE MK1 simulated failures). This explosion ripped the northwest corner of the building, with a strong NW and upward momentum, with a lot of debris, some of them contaminated. At this point the pillars on the west side were gone.

- Boom three: with the pillars gone the overhead crane fall down and pushed the FHM (did anybody managed to find that damned FHM of U3? It's not on the top of SFP, not on the top of equipment pool, but these parts are mostly intact, so after two weeks of pixel-hunting of every available footage and pic I see no other place for it than below the crane) through the upper concrete plug of the containment and released a lot of really hot steam, maybe with some hydrogen, maybe ignited on free air.

Any ideas, comments on this sequence?

If this boom boom boom thing is making reference to the sound of the explosion, I owe you to say, that I am one of those who do _not_ believe we have any reliable audio recording of the explosion(s).

The first frame of the explosion in the best videos indicates the initial blast is coming through the east face of the building. We see see no fire phenomenon in this frame, only the shape of black smoke over the top of the building. In the same frame we see indication of a concurrent shattering of the west face of the building. This directional arrangement is consistent with the grey 'spit out' we can see over the roof of the turbine buildings to the east, and to the west, with the grey spit out over the buildings across the road from unit 3. In the next dozen frames or so, we see the fire phenomenon, and a growing black cloud of smoke around it.

(I think it is likely that the concrete structure of the north and the south wall was shattered by the initial blast, but that is not something that can be seen from the video)

Re the FHM3, I have been looking for it too, it appears to be nowhere in sight, as you mention. It may be because it is not there (it may have been ejected and fallen far from the building) or it has sunk into the building somewhere we cannot see. Candidates for hiding ground for the FHM would be either the SFP itself, or the north west corner of the service floor (we have unexplained massive destruction of the service floor in that corner), or it could have been swallowed by the building annexed to the north wall of the reactor building, the same spot which I currently lean to could be hiding the carrying bridge for the FHM.
 
  • #5,608
jlduh said:
Some questions from this article:
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110502p2a00m0na012000c.html

Well , first of all the article mix Containment Pressure Vessel and Reactor Pressure vessel , so its a bit hard to be sure of what the mean and when.. And I think you are mistaken both or they are.. If I read them right they say that they put enough watter to filled the Containment but the water remain the same level and does not fill it => Containment is leaking..
 
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  • #5,609
I think this the index page of the SPEEDI data, right?

http://www.nsc.go.jp/mext_speedi/

Damn, couldn't they put an english version of this important one? They had some time in the last weeks when they were not disclosing the data...

Release 5000 data this way in one big package and you are sure that anyway only few people will be able to digest it. Transparent as concrete, yes.
 
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  • #5,610
Borek said:
Quite the opposite - they can be horrifying to those who DON'T understand their significance, so they were not release to not start the panic.

I am not saying that's the case, just pointing out you are jumping to conclusions.

I am more concerned about the revelation that they held back facts than I am about the the actual value of the numbers they will report. What this shows me is that their collective behavior may actually be exacerbating the disaster.

Their intellectual feudalism is hindering efforts to find a solution.

They assume they know best. It's the paternalism of their bureaucracy.

Their reluctance to accept international help is a planetary scandal. This governmental version of Colonel Saito must step aside and allow those qualified to clean up this mess.
 

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