Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[ihatelies]

Right, so seeing that the remains of the roof structure to the SW do display fractions of a double layered structure (double 'X's), we can conclude that the roof structure has also not shifted significantly to the south.

I've already conceded that I was wrong on that point - no sense discussing it further. Now, take a look at my pictures above of the "hole" in the roof framing that still would be very near directly above the reactor core.

 

[jlduh]

That is not correct. The north set roof beams look to have fallen downward. The second and third rafters are still adjacent to the columns and the fourth rafter is still attached to the column on the east (ocean) side of the building, but on the west (land) side the columns fell toward the south and there is a slight southward displacement (~half of a panel) of those rafters (rafters 3, 4 and 5 starting from north). The southern half (three section) looks like it fell straight down. The plume of steam is coming from the spent fuel pool which is on the south side of the containment building.

Overhead of Unit 3 - west top and south to left.

I was just willing to confirm this point that the roof didn't move to the south still being attached to one pillar at the East side, it just moved two floors DOWN on the west side!http://www.netimago.com/image_198859.html

Now Astro, when you say that the plume of steam is coming from the SFP, this is true (did you see some RECENT footage of reactor 3 by the way? I would like to see such a video to update my visual representation of the situation...) but after the explosion there has been TWO plumes of steam and one was situated at the place where the reactor is (i don't know if this plume totally disappeared after, or reappeared occasionnally?).

http://www.netimago.com/image_198860.html

On this satellite view, that i think most of you saw, taken just after the explosion at n°3, the two plumes are obvious, and the central one (reactor area) is even bigger than the SFP one.

http://www.netimago.com/image_198861.html

 

[MadderDoc]

I've already conceded that I was wrong on that point - no sense discussing it further. Now, take a look at my pictures above of the "hole" in the roof framing that still would be very near directly above the reactor core.

It was not a stab at you. I fact I think was trying to say that we could see that the roof structure is also not displaced to the north. I don't care a damn if I or anyone else has had a wrong theory, now rejected. Haven't we all, and does it not have to be that way, that the road to truth is crooked and paved with rejections of falsehood. Having been wrong is a pride it's what wisdom is made of.

 

[ihatelies]

It was not a stab at you. I fact I think was trying to say that we could see that the roof structure is also not displaced to the north. I don't care a damn if I or anyone else has had a wrong theory, now rejected. Haven't we all, and does it not have to be that way, that the road to truth is crooked and paved with rejections of falsehood. Having been wrong is a pride it's what wisdom is made of.

Thanks. No problem. In fact, if you can prove to me my "hole" is not a hole, then I'm happy to admit I'm wrong there too.

However, I have much more photographic evidence that the #3 may have blown completely open, and at worst doesn't exist anymore.

I know there was pressure data and temp data and all that - however I also know that they were publishing data when there was no one onsite to get the data, and no power onsite for any equipment to function with.

And, having instrumented devices before, I also know that it is very unlikely that any instrumentation at all survived that blast - just look at the place - 1 meter thick bulkheads shredded.

 

[Rive]

On this satellite view, that i think most of you saw, taken just after the explosion at n°3, the two plumes are obvious, and the central one (reactor area) is even bigger than the SFP one.

http://www.netimago.com/image_198861.html

That is the image which were taken only a few moments after the explosion.
Actually I think both big plumes are from the reactor area: the left one from near the equipment pool, the right one is from under the south edge of the overhead crane. These main sources can be seen on the thermal images.
With carefully guessing the position of SFP I can't see any plumes over it.

 

[MadderDoc]

Sure - Picture number 1 shows it very clearly - I've desaturated everything but the hole. Look at how the crosstie beams are bent in a perfect arc <..> Can you see what I'm talking about now?

While I certainly can see what you are talking about, I am hesitant to consider it a round hole in the sense that a huge round object could've passed unhindered through it. There appears to be several remains of the higher lying roof structure elements in the way, which appear relatively unscathed by the general utter destruction in this area, as well as more specifically an assumed collision with a passing through large object.
[URL]http://www.gyldengrisgaard.dk/fuku_docs/20110324_down_3_epicenter.jpg[/URL]

That said, this 'hole' you are highlighting does seem to be closely the epicenter of the events that shook unit 3 so badly.

 

[|Fred]

In my opinion the sat picture is consistent with the other picture (see bellow) and the belief that steams is leaking via the removable wall of the upper part of the containment.

As far as the "south hole in the roof structure", I see that the roof structure is damage and par has collapsed in the pool or partially melted. I do not manage to imagine how this could have been done by a concrete slab pushing upward.

I'm still unsure where the FHM and its crane are, I'm still asking my self what is the cause of the North North west damage that teared apart the roof structure

"What do you think the blackish piece is with the roundish shape? (Left of center)"
If it is what I think you are referring to, it is actually green, and the proper name has been given one page down it is a "bolt driver" machine that is used to screw/unscrew the bold fixing the biological shield " yellow cap" of the containment.
Problem is that it is in it's right storing position mind the floor giving out. So there was something else that damages the structure..

 

[MadderDoc]

<..>I have much more photographic evidence that the #3 may have blown completely open, and at worst doesn't exist anymore.

But, I'd rather see evidence that unit 3 within its leaking primary containment does still have a pressure vessel worthy of the name. Until then my working hypothesis remains: that it doesn't.

 

[AntonL]

I have plotted all 13 temperature variables of 032_1F3_05110600.pdf

Increased water flow to reacter 3 has no effect, even though the water level has risen to 1800mm below fuel top.

Surely the temperature sensor for the RPF flange top is faulty, as is the senxor for the RPV stud which is intermittent faulty.

The lower RPV body is above 150 degrees even though there is water in RPV , the lower RPv flange is view degrees hotter than the body itself.

Also refer to https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3293066&postcount=6381" for location of temperature sensors

[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikT5hW.JPG

 

[razzz]

Shot from the helicopter over Unit 3.

 

[zapperzero]

Shot from the helicopter over Unit 3.

Shot when, please?

 

[Rive]

I have plotted all 13 temperature variables of 032_1F3_05110600.pdf

Increased water flow to reacter 3 has no effect, even though the water level has risen to 1800mm below fuel top.

If there are melted (or just blocked) areas within the RPV then it's possible that some areas 'overreacts' the cooling, while other areas does not reacts or reacts only with delay.

Even fluctuations or sudden changes are possible as the blocked flow paths changes or the crust breaks up locally.

It's enough for me if the trend turns downward.

 

[razzz]

Shot when, please?

Uploaded March 24.

 

[Concrn&Curius]

Apologies if this has already been sorted out, but what is the accepted status of the fuel in unit 4 SFP? I noticed that in the shorter video it appears there are 1) clearly empty spaces in the bins 2) undamaged fuel, and 3) mirky looking areas where assemblies could have been? In the longer video that was "damage free" you can really only distinctly see the tops (where the crane grabs them) in the near assemblies. The other end of the pool is difficult to tell. If you pause the shorter video around 0:02, you can see what looks like darker plumes above the mirky areas rising in the water? When the camera goes out of focus, it is pretty hard to see the distinctions.

 

[|Fred]

Uploaded March 24.

it was taken on the 15th march

 

[rmattila]

If you mean BWR plants under normal operation, they do have recombiners in the condenser vacuum/off gas system in order to recombine the hydrogen and oxygen back to water prior to transferring the gases to the actual off-gas treatment.

Haa, interesting. Do you have an indication of their capacity? By design how much would they process (depending on plant power I guess)?

The design capacity lies somewhere around 10-20 kg/h hydrogen depending on the plant, the required capacity during normal operation being about half of that.

 

[elektrownik]

And what is that ?! Leak to sea from reactor 3 pit ?? It was posted today on tepco site:
[URL]http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110511_1.jpg[/URL]

 

[TCups]

Sure - Picture number 1 shows it very clearly - I've desaturated everything but the hole. Look at how the crosstie beams are bent in a perfect arc


Your markup shows the reactor core offset somewhat.

I've also highlighted your picture from above(attachment #2) - much harder to see the deformed beams and the "hole" but it is there, and when I see this view, the hole is not very far offset from where you show the reactor core.

Can you see what I'm talking about now?

@ihatelies:

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/cep/39/4/images/thumb_cep_39_4_491_fig4a.jpg

Google "Cognitive Contours" and do a bit of reading, just for fun. See also: cognitive contrast and cognitive mental sets. Your visual physiology is more complex than you know. Your brain sees what it expects to see.

PS: I make my living looking at images and interpreting them.

 

[elektrownik]

Yes, another radioactive leak to sea: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11051108-e.html
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110511e9.pdf

 

[jlduh]

And what is that ?! Leak to sea from reactor 3 pit ?? It was posted today on tepco site:
[URL]http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/images/110511_1.jpg

[/URL]

The big problem is that outside of the containment vessel (which is designed to contain everything radioactive of course), such a plant is not designed to contain so much contaminated water... So because of the leakages through containment vessels, water will then follow many possible paths, either cracks but it is not even necessary: hundreds of cables routes here and there will do the job! I've had to deal in my environmental expertises with several cases with that kind of situation (much smaller and not nuclear, but with chemicals), after a big fire for example, and i can tell you that containing water from something like a big plant that is not designed from scratch to contain water is a pain in what you prefer. There are so many unexpected paths and holes, water goes everywhere (you probably noticed that in your house unfortunately!)

Containing contaminated water in such a messy plant (and the volume is going to increase even much more with typoon rains washing everything and adding big volumes!) is almost an impossible task because it will leak towards the sea and towards the ground water, and even if they can stop some of it, it will overflow or take many other paths...

The final containment vessel will be... the ocean.

 

[jlduh]

"TEPCO slipping behind schedule to contain accident"

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/11_04.html

The title is almost laughable... as if there was a clear schedule to stabilize and contain this mess...
That's the very thuth!

Let's face it. We've spent here on the forum more than TWO MONTHS today discussing, analysing the infos given, trying to understand what happened and what could still happen, building theories and cutting pixels in half and more (including me!) BUT in 2 months I didn't see a credible plan from any nuclear company (including Tepco) or any nuclear agencies in the world explaining how this desaster COULD be contained. And i have more and more the impression that any schedule given will be something to create hope and give the impression that things out of any control are or "will be soon" in control. A cloud of steam to hide the core of the situation.

Maybe i missed some anticipation technical plans but really i would like to see them summarized there on this forum now after the first two months (if they ever exist). How long will we continue to lurk for tidbits of infos just being moved by day by day events? When will a global plan be discussed?

Ok Tepco has some plan to try to restore a backup closed loop cooling system reusing nitrogen pipes (any drawing of them?) on reactor N°1 which has still some containement but what else?

N°2?

N°3?

Ok I'm not in their shoes, but I'm just (like this article above) considering this simple fact: do they know what to do on a mid term/long term or NOT? My personal feeling is that they have no plan (except a draft for N°1, with lots of uncertainties) because THERE IS NO PLAN IN SUCH A SITUATION, because the nuke industry never imagined to have to handle such a situation...

So what will they do? Just keep flooding them for years (maybe 3 or 4 based on what is required for active cooling of spent fuel?)? During this time just pray for not having a new quake, a new tsunami (ohhh they are going to build a new wall in emergency, I forgot) , and not too bad typhoons. Man, let's imagine 3 seasons of typhoons washing these highly contaminated ruins and spraying radioactive materials where the winds want to bring them around... not a very sexy scenario!

And then, if we assume that after a so long time, there hasn't been any bad event like a new explosion of some kind or a fall of some fuel content of the attic SFP's, will come the time for long term containment and/or decontamination of the complete site... Where are those guys with gigantic views and nice drawings when the subject is to present the launch of some future big project for making big money? Why are they so quiet? Don't they have any credible plan? Like a nice 1 kms (or maybe even bigger) long sarcophagus, for 4 reactors and turbine buildings, that will make the Tchernobyl one a miniaturized one (the one that should be constructed to replace the old one but is still not really started, due to... lack of money and technical difficulties!)... Or whatever other plan. But i hear nothing. Just silence.

Undoubtedly, if only considering the releases in the 2 first months, and thanks to some incredible luck when you consider the details of what happened with the SFPs, this Fukushima accident could be viewed as much less severe than Tchenobyl where a bunch of radioactive material has been thrown away in the air in the first weeks. But let's now consider the time factor, and also the size factor (4 reactors plus spent fuels, so a total of 10 cores to manage!) and you will get a very different view at the "end of the story", which will be in a very long time (and this thread will die before it for sure!).

From this standpoint, no doubt that Fukushima is going to replace Tchernobyl in the minds of humanity.

They are going to present where they are according to their "restoration plan" the 17th of May...

But a part of the unplanned things is that they apologize for the second time for being out of their planned timings... I fear they will have soon their backs soaring if they have to apologize each and every time the so called plan is delayed, considering the current situation...

"TEPCO apologizes again 2 months after accident"

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/11_19.html

 

[Samy24]

Yes, another radioactive leak to sea: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11051108-e.html
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110511e9.pdf

TEPCO increase the water flow to the reactor from 6 t/h to 9 t/h in response to the increasing temperature at unit 3. The water level will rise and you can be sure the water will "find" it's way.

 

[Astronuc]

To be more precise there is no double layered steel structure on the north and south end as there is no transversal beam adjacent to the wall. But there still is a single layered steel structure.

I' don't feel like going over every argument again but I've reup a better view of the roof been deformation, that also show you the secondary pool wall, the one adjacent to the reactor concrete slab with a crane on top , toping the reactor biological shield, the one toping the reactor core vessel lid..
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikOZG2.jpg[/QUOTE] That's an interesting picture. It looks like steam is issuing through a crack around the frame of the hole, which I believe is the cask transfer shaft. That shaft should be on the west side of the spent fuel pool.

 

[ernal_student]

The following matter has been previously considerd in this thread, but it is perhaps worth mentioning because it has shown up in mainstream media now:
(found quoted in the blog at http://norikoiida.exblog.jp/13552179/ where other interesting information can be found, as well)

The evening edition of the Toukyou Shinbun (Tokyo Newspaper) from May 10 is quoted as follows:

Under the headline
"謎深まる４号機爆発　水素、原因じゃない？" ("Deepening mystery of the reactor 4 explosion - cause of explosion not hydrogen?")
the article considers that there is virtually no damage to/in the fuel storage pool next to reactor 4 and explains why hydrogen cannot have flown to reactor 4 from reactor 3 through underground pipes ("it is lighter than air"). Then it mentions
"石油類二六リットルとスプレー缶三十三本" ("33 spray cans containing 26 liters each of a petroleum product") = 858 liters total
as a possible source of explosive materal.

 

[|Fred]

That's an interesting picture. It looks like steam is issuing through a crack around the frame of the hole, which I believe is the cask transfer shaft. That shaft should be on the west side of the spent fuel pool.

No no , this picture is taken from the north looking south, this is not the spent fuel pool BUT the "utility" pool symmetrically opposed to the spent fuel pool

as I explained (but I'm to lazy to find my post) the white REMOVABLE wall that you see is similar to the one on this picture http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/BigBrocktoon/headlift.jpg
but the picture is taken from the pool not from the reactor area.

 

[ihatelies]

While I certainly can see what you are talking about, I am hesitant to consider it a round hole in the sense that a huge round object could've passed unhindered through it. There appears to be several remains of the higher lying roof structure elements in the way, which appear relatively unscathed by the general utter destruction in this area, as well as more specifically an assumed collision with a passing through large object.
[URL]http://www.gyldengrisgaard.dk/fuku_docs/20110324_down_3_epicenter.jpg[/URL]

That said, this 'hole' you are highlighting does seem to be closely the epicenter of the events that shook unit 3 so badly.

I didn't say anything passed unhindered through it.

Instead, I would believe quite a bit of hindrance on the way. Notice that all those other pieces of metal that seem to cross over the "hole". are broken off at one end and no longer connect the two roof trusses together anymore.

Whatever went through there may have gotten sliced up as it passed through. Then it would fall back down in pieces.

I think the most interesting area of the Reactor 3 wreckage is not the reactor space, not the spent fuel pool, but instead the north end of the building wreckage.

And no, I'm not talking about the "nut driver machine". I believe that actually is what the charred black object is. However just to the West of the nut driver is a bunch of stuff that it very interesting.

First there is a large pile of "rod like" items, then there is something buried deep in the wreckage. That item has been smoking with reddish smoke for weeks. Also, the entire north end of the building wreckage has disintigrated slowly over time. And finally - that is the area of the whole plant that has shown the highest radiation readings, and to top it all off, it is the first area they put a firehose on after the accident, and despite the fact they have purposely avoided photographing anything there, as of a couple weeks ago they were still pumping water on that part of the wreckage.

 

[TCups]

I think the most interesting area of the Reactor 3 wreckage is not the reactor space, not the spent fuel pool, but instead the north end of the building wreckage.

And no, I'm not talking about the "nut driver machine". I believe that actually is what the charred black object is. However just to the West of the nut driver is a bunch of stuff that it very interesting.

First there is a large pile of "rod like" items, then there is something buried deep in the wreckage. That item has been smoking with reddish smoke for weeks. Also, the entire north end of the building wreckage has disintigrated slowly over time. And finally - that is the area of the whole plant that has shown the highest radiation readings, and to top it all off, it is the first area they put a firehose on after the accident, and despite the fact they have purposely avoided photographing anything there, as of a couple weeks ago they were still pumping water on that part of the wreckage.

Please share the image(s) you reference. Thanks.

 

[|Fred]

this is a picture of the north end
http://i.min.us/inkjAa.jpg
Could you please point out what you believe are pile of ..well rod like = small tubes.
I don"t recall any mention of reddish Smoke, but could you refresh my memories.

For the rest of the statement I believe you are referring to the pictures and the following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBeY7URe9q8
I would agree that one could wonder why in order to fill the Fuel Pool the truck is positioned there.

 

[ihatelies]

@ihatelies:

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/cep/39/4/images/thumb_cep_39_4_491_fig4a.jpg

Google "Cognitive Contours" and do a bit of reading, just for fun. See also: cognitive contrast and cognitive mental sets. Your visual physiology is more complex than you know. Your brain sees what it expects to see.

PS: I make my living looking at images and interpreting them.

I don't doubt that some people have a lot of trouble recognizing things in that wreckage. As I said, please show me where I'm wrong - sorry if I cannot accept a general concept that I might have gotten tricked by my brain as proof that this doesn't exist.

I used to make my living making 2D drawings on a drafting board for many years, and then I designed on a Cad station. I'm pretty good at interpreting things in 3D - if you point out where I'm incorrect, I will have no trouble seeing it.

The screen grabs of the helicopter flyover clearly show the opening I'm talking about. BTW that's been the best piece of visual evidence that has been released so far, because it wasn't cropped and edited as much as most of what we see.

 

[ihatelies]

this is a picture of the north end
http://i.min.us/inkjAa.jpg
Could you please point out what you believe are pile of ..well rod like = small tubes.
I don"t recall any mention of reddish Smoke, but could you refresh my memories.

For the rest of the statement I believe you are referring to the pictures and the following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBeY7URe9q8
I would agree that one could wonder why in order to fill the Fuel Pool the truck is positioned there.

The stuff I'm going to point out is in the picture you show, but not very visible. I'll show a different angle.

Attachment 1 shows the wreckage of #3 - As I recall it is a screen grab from the video where they were driving a reporter around the wreckage just a few weeks ago - so it's taken from a vehicle. You can clearly see the "nut driver" wreckage. If you download it and zoom in, you can also see the red smoke I'm talking about. Also, of course you can see a firehose on this part of the wreckage - this is several weeks after the explosion.

Attachment #2 is a slightly different view of the same scene. Some of the items in the wreckage are a little clearer.

Attachment #3 I've zoomed and annotated #2. I've pointed out the areas of red smoke - which you can't really see with the annotation, but if you switch back to the clean view, you will now be able to see. I've also pointed out the jumble of long, thin straight rods. I tend to think they are not fuel rods, at this point, but maybe instead control rods - but the implications are the same.

I've also pointed out an item which has some round openings that are large diameter pipes that have been ripped out from somewhere. I label this as possibly the RPV - and yeah, that's a real jump. However, I followed some of the falling wreckage in the explosion to exactly this spot, and additionally if you look at drawings of the base of the Mark IV RPV, you see an object that looks ominously like this thing that is sitting there, upside down, in the wreckage.