Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

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The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant is facing significant challenges following the earthquake, with reports indicating that reactor pressure has reached dangerous levels, potentially 2.1 times capacity. TEPCO has lost control of pressure at a second unit, raising concerns about safety and management accountability. The reactor is currently off but continues to produce decay heat, necessitating cooling to prevent a meltdown. There are conflicting reports about an explosion, with indications that it may have originated from a buildup of hydrogen around the containment vessel. The situation remains serious, and TEPCO plans to flood the containment vessel with seawater as a cooling measure.
  • #1,711
I fear this is getting off topic to political issue. I guess on Kiefer Sutherland's 24 the US army was a lot more involved and they only need the tech operator to look clueless, while Military will solve everything did it's thingy.

The SDF are working at the Fukushima plant, it's the closest thing to an army that Japan has, since WW2 Japan kind of made a point in not having an army (per say).
Those are the one putting water into the plant for the past days.
 
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  • #1,712
And there it is: Pu-238,239,240

BRCor.png


In soil samples, more info here:

http://plixi.com/p/87602186

[Sampled 22nd]
 
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  • #1,713
jlduh said:
BEWARE concerning the picture you posted FRED on the internal top floor layout: This is a picture i previously posted here i think three days ago (i did only a print screen capture of the video of Mr Tanaka's conference) and i mentionned that IT WAS PRESENTED BY TANAKA AS THE INTERIOR OF TOP FLOOR OF REACTOR N°6 WHICH IS A DIFFERENT GENERATION OF BWR REACTOR (i mentionned that the building is square from the top, the other ones 1 to 5 are rectangular). He presented this because he wanted to show the various parts of a reactor fully opened with the reactor's cover, the containement vessel's cover and the pool. But the actual layout and position from a geographical standpoint are probably different in reactors 1 to 5.

So this picture can be misleading if used to describe damaged reactors.

I didn't find until now actual pictures of the damaged reactors previously taken before the accident.

Understand. I could not find an exact floor plan of the top floors of units 3 or 4, but it has been confirmed, I believe, that the SPF's are in the SE corner. Here is a wider angle view of the damaged Unit 3.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture8.png
 
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  • #1,714
|Fred said:
I fear this is getting off topic to political issue. I guess on Kiefer Sutherland's 24 the US army was a lot more involved and they only need the tech operator to look clueless, while Military will solve everything did it's thingy.

The SDF are working at the Fukushima plant, it's the closest thing to an army that Japan has, since WW2 Japan kind of made a point in not having an army (per say).
Those are the one putting water into the plant for the past days.

Probably due to the lack of new information.
We're bored 'cos there's nothing new to work on!
I think if they gave the truth out to all concerned they'd get answers, not panic... OK they feel embarrased, but mistakes happen... we only learn something REALLY when we make a mistake so swallow your pride, and tell us what happening!
 
  • #1,715
Bodge said:
And there it is: Pu-238,239,240

BRCor.png


In soil samples, more info here:

http://plixi.com/p/87602186

[Sampled 22nd]

Any idea where these samples were taken? I see the distances. Do you know what they are in relation to?

Sorry, my knowledge of Kanji is pretty poor.
 
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  • #1,716
Astronuc said:
...If the fuel material was washed out, then the core is less likely to become critical, because the fuel material would end up in the water, which is at the bottom of the core or in the plenum underneath the core, where there is a lot of hardware...

Is it even possible to 'wash out' the reactors and distribute fuel wherever the water goes?

Have they had the available water pressure to move out broken/melted fuel rods; I'm assuming the fuel is pretty dense..

Or, is that exactly what they've been doing for 10 days: flushing out the cores to prevent further explosions?

If so, the groundwater and the pacific will get a battering.
 
  • #1,717
divmstr95 said:
Any idea where these samples were taken? I see the distances. Do you know what they are in relation to?

Sorry, my knowledge of Kanji is pretty poor.

LjmUb.png


http://plixi.com/p/87602186
 
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  • #1,718
Plutonium detected in soil at Fukushima nuke plant: TEPCO

TOKYO, March 28, Kyodo

Plutonium has been detected in soil at five locations at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Monday.

The operator of the nuclear complex said that the plutonium is believed to have been discharged from nuclear fuel at the plant, which was damaged by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

==Kyodo

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/81589.html

I see the earlier posts. This news release is officially from Tepco. Now we can continue.
 
  • #1,719
Reno Deano said:
Do not condemn until you have walked in their shoes.

Amen to that.
 
  • #1,720
Must point out, the activity from Pu, quoted per kg of soil is very small..

However, the half-lives of these isotopes is very long.

Will there be more at other locations I wonder?
 
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  • #1,721
Bodge said:
Is it even possible to 'wash out' the reactors and distribute fuel wherever the water goes?

Have they had the available water pressure to move out broken/melted fuel rods; I'm assuming the fuel is pretty dense..

Or, is that exactly what they've been doing for 10 days: flushing out the cores to prevent further explosions?

If so, the groundwater and the pacific will get a battering.

If the radioactive water is left standing in cement ponds, like the Turbine Building floor, most of it will be fitered out by the concrete as the water seeps through it. That happened at Three Mile Island.
 
  • #1,722
I need some clarification (promised, this is not political :rolleyes:) related to the hypothesis that it seems there is now some plutonium in the environment of the plant: when we talk about "millisieverts" for example, this is a measure of the dose equivalent radiation, which tries to quantitatively evaluate the biological effects of ionizing radiation.

The equivalent dose to a person is equalled to the absorbed dose, in gray, multiplied by a weighting factor. The weighting factor is determined by a combination of the radiation type, the tissue absorbing the radiation, and some other factors.

So my question is the following one: does the dose equivalent take into account the presence of very toxic elements like plutonium even in small quantities, and if yes, how is it measured by the equipments and integrated in the measurement in millisieverts for example?

In other words, can measurements in millisieverts still be compared to "safe limits" of doses per 24h, or per year for example (in fact i know that it's more a probabilist approach: one dose creates an excess risk of cancers of X/million people) EVEN IF THERE IS SOME ELEMENTS LIKE PLUTONIUM AROUND?

See, this is not political, hey!:wink:
 
  • #1,723
Bodge said:
LjmUb.png


http://plixi.com/p/87602186

Got the other survey map. That is what I was looking for.

Thanks.
 
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  • #1,724
So most of the waterborne contaminants will end up locked in the concrete Joe?
 
  • #1,725
Bodge said:
So most of the waterborne contaminants will end up locked in the concrete Joe?

Bad speculation: it will be deposited there, but released bit by bit over time due to enviornmental conditions. Radiation levels will be basically the same due to the surface deposition of the radioactivity and continual release due to temperature and humidity on the exposed surfaces. Concrete sweats.
 
  • #1,726
Bodge said:
Is it even possible to 'wash out' the reactors and distribute fuel wherever the water goes?

Have they had the available water pressure to move out broken/melted fuel rods; I'm assuming the fuel is pretty dense..

Or, is that exactly what they've been doing for 10 days: flushing out the cores to prevent further explosions?

If so, the groundwater and the pacific will get a battering.
Fuel washout is possible when the cladding is breached and the opening is relatively large - several mils or mm. Grain size of the ceramic is on the order of 10 microns, but there is usually a sized distribution, from ~1 - 20 microns. On the surface, there is some restructuring as a function of burnup, and the fuel subgrain structure forms with sizes on the order of 10's of nm.

If the fuel grains wash out, they go with the flow. If there is no flow, then they would settle toward the bottom of the core, or down through the plenum under the core plate.

Now, with the seawater, I have to wonder if some of the fuel particles will actually dissolve, in which one then has a solution, e.g., uranyl chloride. I don't know of any research into the chemical behavior of spent fuel in seawater.

Any solution could flow through any opening in the system, and possibly to the torus or plant discharge. If they are detecting fission products in the discharge to the sea, then it's either fuel particles or fuel and fission products in solution.

I think the main focus has been on cooling the remaining fuel. I am concerned about the use of seawater though.

Update: Contaminated pools to be drained (where the water seems to be going)
27 March 2011
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Contaminated_pools_to_the_drained_2703111.html
 
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  • #1,727
How can people argue this incident is far less severe than Chernobyl?

According to calculations published by Austria's Central Institute for Meteorology and Geodynamics:

" the iodine released from Fukushima in the first three-four days was about 20 percent of that released from Chernobyl during a ten-day period. For Caesium-137, the figure could amount to some 50 percent."

And now plutonium is spotted as well.

The radiation of Iodine is very short lived but for Caesium- 137 it does not go away in one generation. Plutonium radiation will practically speaking never go away.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/23/us-japan-quake-radiation-chernobyl-idUSTRE72M6OV20110323
 
  • #1,728
jensjakob said:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/28_h28.html

"pumping in 16 tons of water every hour in #2, might cut down to the 7 tons that are evaporated every hour".

1. What happens to the 9 tons that doesn't evaporate?
2. How much thermal energy does it take to evaporate 7 tons of cold water?
3. Where does all this steam go?

You pump 16 tons and whaddya get?
7 tons lighter and fuel that's still wet?
St. Peter don't come knockin' at my door
'cause Fukushima needs me at units 1-4.
 
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  • #1,729
Thanks very much for the full answer Astronuc.
 
  • #1,730
TCups said:
You pump 16 tons and whaddya get?
7 tons lighter and fuel that's still wet
St. Peter don't come knockin' at my door
'cause Fukushima needs me at units 1-4.

Love it.
 
  • #1,731
Reno Deano said:
Love it.

If Bodge can inject light humor, so can I, I guess.
 
  • #1,732
How can people argue this incident is far less severe than Chernobyl?

Only official numbers ONCE THE ACCIDENT IS FINISHED will tell the final level of notation. Don't preclude to quickly, because anyway this is going to last for looooooooooong time!

In other words, "don't be political" (ok, maybe 1% of sarcasm inside my answer? :shy: Hope you understand it! )
 
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  • #1,733
http://plixi.com/p/87601856

Are those leaked (no joke) documents or are these official releases? These scanned or Xeroxed documents always look like leaked ones (don't they use word or excel files for generating docs and releasing them officially?)
 
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  • #1,734
Passionflower said:
How can people argue this incident is far less severe than Chernobyl? According to
According to the same article those 20 to 50% might as well be 10% when the French do the math. (assuming it's math they are doing)

Any how , make your mind by your self !
I'll leave it to you to judge of the merit of the claim (speculation really) from the Austrian Weather channel http://www.zamg.ac.at (that's the expert)
(and may be blame the journalist...)

Weather in the crisis region
The weather front that crossed the crisis region meanwhile went out. Rain in Fukushima and Tokyo stopped. The winds are weak, mostly from northerly to easterly directions. Air from the reactors can thus be blown inland.
Tomorrow and the day after tomorrow, winds from westerly directions predominate. Air is thus mostly transported towards the Pacific.
On Friday, a new disturbance is expected to cross the region. There is again potential transport of radioactivity inland.
First emission estimates
In the phase of March 12 to 13, the Fukushima emissions were mostly transported to the Pacific, eventually hitting the CTBTO station in Sacramento/California. In the phase March 14 to 15, on the other hand, most of the emissions were transported inland, hitting the CTBTO station in Takasaki, Japan. Based on simulated dilution factors and measurements, we were able to have a first rough source estimate.
Regarding Iodine-131, the picture is relatively homogeneous. A source term of 1017 Bq per day would explain the measurements in Takasaki as well as Sacramento. The total 4-day emission of 4 1017 Bq is on the order of 20% of the total emissions of Iodine-131 that occurred during the Chernobyl accident. Regarding Cesium-137, the situation is a bit different. In the cloud eventually propagating to the United States, the ratio of Iodine-131 to Cesium-137 was about 30. This is similar to the Chernobyl accident. In Takasaki, however, this ratio was four. This would indicate a much larger Cesium-137 release in the second two-day period after the accident. Taking this together, the source terms would be about 3 1015 Bq during the first two days, and 3 1016 during the second two-day period. In sum, this could amount to about 50% of the Chernobyl source term of Cesium-137.
 
  • #1,735
jlduh said:
Are those leaked (no joke) documents or are these official releases? These scanned or Xeroxed documents always look like leaked ones (don't they use word or excel files for generating docs and releasing them officially?)

Those are papers coming from Tepco press conference, from the past 2 weeks those press conference were held live and document uploaded live by Japanese journalists, as soon as they were handled.. usually takes a few hours for NISA to clean them up and put the pdf online and again a few hours or a day to have them in english ..

I gave link to the live streaming... it's a shame we don't have some one to translate them

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/iwakamiyasumi
 
  • #1,736
First I want to thank the many contributors to this forum especially the moderators/mentors. I have read it all from the beginning and understood more than I would have thought. Thanks for the clear and concise explanations. Keeping up with it has been a bit like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow though.

As a teen I worked on the construction of the Pilgrim 1 plant in Plymouth, Mass (1970). I had the run of the place and recognize the Daiichi 1-4 designs. I later worked building construction and as an aircraft mechanic for a major airline. Part of the time with the airline, ~Y2K, was in the department that maintained the physical plant; emergency generators, boilers, fire suppression, electrical, plumbing, lighting, PLC’s, etc. The focus then was contingency planning and mitigation.

What I will contribute will be from a practical experience perspective. This will be long, typed with two fingers, copied and pasted and will cover some areas already addressed so skip it unless or until you have the time or interest to read it.

Emergency diesel generators in this application range from 1-25Mw and even in the smaller end http://www.fairbanksmorsenuclear.com/engine_alco_251f.php range from 26-43 tons. As part of the earthquake design specification of the original plant they would have to have been anchored to the concrete floor of the building designed to hold such weight in the specified earthquake. Without witnessing it I have high confidence that they are still where they were installed (allowing for the fact of the whole nation moving a few meters). With the air intakes near the top of the (3+ meters, see dimensions) generators, inside an intact building 10-13meters above sea level I am confident that they did not draw water into the intakes and liquid lock. In addition the basements of the T/B and R/B remained dry until ~ 24 March after the tsunami and after much seawater had been pumped into the building and the generators ran ~30 min which is 20 min past the arrival of the after the tsunami.



I believe we will eventually find that the diesel generator problem originated with the fuel supply. The fuel tanks are outside of the buildings on a concrete pad separate from the building itself. Five minutes of earthquake shaking independent of the building, with fuel sloshing and adding to the forces on the tank/foundation, would stress the fuel supply lines and connections. If the break happened low enough to draw in water it would result in damage to filters, injector pumps and injectors that would consume more time than the golden 8 hours http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/6124656-R8y05j/6124656.pdf might allow even if materials were available on site and undamaged. This fits with the ~30 min run time as generators installed inside of buildings typically have a small “day tank” that they actually run from. The tank calls for replenishment from the main fuel source as it draws down and holds a small amount of fuel. If a break drew in air the generators would run out of fuel and the fuel system would have to be purged of air which requires climbing all over a large engine. It is not as simple as filling your empty car.

Adding to the problem is the probability that emergency generator maintenance is probably done by an outside company on a contract basis. It is unlikely they would have had someone on site, and they would have needed mere than one. This is not a criticism. Elevator maintenance and air conditioning (HVAC) are also specialty occupations that are required only on an intermittent basis and not part of the skill sets needed to run a reactor.

As the NRC recognizes the critical nature of backup power many plants now have more than the minimum two generators in order to comply with new regulations. http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part050/part050-0063.html

I will add my opinion to the excellent suggestions already offered here in hindsight. Also, because I have just pointed out problems, it will make more sense to offer the solutions now.
In a tsunami risk area at least one new diesel generator needs to be placed in an elevated area outside of the risk zone. It should supply an electrical buss available to all reactor plants at its installation. All new or existing diesel generators at nuke plants should supply an electrical buss available to each plant in its location. All existing diesel generators in seismically active areas should be retrofitted with flexible fuel supply lines between the main fuel supply and the generator building. (Existing aircraft jet engine flexible fuel lines should easily gain approval for this application.) New construction of emergency power generation for nuclear power plants in seismically active areas should have the main fuel supply tank foundation integral with that of the generator building to minimize independent movement. The size of the day tanks inside the building should be increased to allow several hours use set to maintain 2/3 to 3/4 full and alarmed for any level below 1/2. This may require a waiver and additional fire suppression equipment. It will buy time however.



Daiichi 4 fires explosions while in maintenance shutdown have been difficult for some to understand. After all it was shut down safely. However it was not in its normal configuration due to it undergoing maintenance. This does not mean that it was in an unsafe condition. Just that the process of undergoing maintenance is not a normal configuration. By design, the systems that must be shut off and locked out, disassembled, removed for replacement or repair are placed in a condition that is not normal for operation. They are brought to this state by a safe, prescribed process. But there still remains a great deal of stored energy. The spent fuel storage heat for example. All tools, parts and assemblies at any vertical height have stored kinetic energy and are potential sources of sparks if they fall. Five minutes of earthquake, tsunami and aftershocks may account for fire origination. There may have been hot tools or torches in use at the time of the earthquake and flammable materials, like boxes containing new parts and supplies present that normally would not be present. Oxy/acetylene is commonly used in maintenance and presents the potential for another source of flammable gas before hydrogen might have become present. Portable, as well as normal, lighting present a potential heat source to flammable materials not normally present. If the spent fuel pond, or its piping, were to leak the potential for hydrogen formation in falling water levels has been well addressed by others. I think this is a sufficient, if not complete, list of potential sources of trouble for a shut down reactor going thru an earthquake. It may be a long time, if ever, before we know cause exactly. The information may not be worth the danger it presents to persons trying to discern it.


I have great admiration for those present at the Fukushima plants. They endured an earthquake, a tsunami, knew that their families (most are reported to have lived nearby) were in danger or worse, had their plants lose all electrical sources, were in a location inaccessible to rescue, relief or re-supply, lost heat, faced winter conditions outside and had limited food and water. Afterwards, things got bad as aftershocks continued, explosions and fires occurred, tsunami warnings repeated while they were trying to get a grip on things and then the batteries ran down leaving them with no instruments to tell them how bad things were becoming. They knew that the people and families nearby would be affected by what they did to control their plants at the same time that they continually had fewer and fewer tools to do anything about their deteriorating situation. The situation became different as well with each passing event (tsunami, aftershock, explosion, power loss).


I have fewer good feelings toward the utility management outside of the area. They also had loss and stress and fear but they also had distance from the immediate danger. They had greater means and responsibility to mitigate the damage that was sure to come. It seems that there was no one with a voice in the back of their head saying “autodestruct engaged, autodestruct will commence in eight hours” and then repeating with diminished time periods. The absence of practical actions taken is not in keeping with my understanding of the Japanese character. I do not know what the source of the inertia was. Perhaps in another thread when we have some facts.
 
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  • #1,737
|Fred said:
Those are papers coming from Tepco press conference, from the past 2 weeks those press conference were held live and document uploaded live by Japanese journalists, as soon as they were handled.. usually takes a few hours for NISA to clean them up and put the pdf online and again a few hours or a day to have them in english ..

I gave link to the live streaming... it's a shame we don't have some one to translate them

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/iwakamiyasumi

BTW, IAEA must have taken the day off!
 
  • #1,738
|Fred said:
According to the same article those 20 to 50% might as well be 10% when the French do the math. (assuming it's math they are doing)

Any how , make your mind by your self !
I'll leave it to you to judge of the merit of the claim (speculation really) from the Austrian Weather channel http://www.zamg.ac.at (that's the expert)
(and may be blame the journalist...)

The IAEA are making some pretty worrying measurements 30+ km from the site:

Upto 4.9 megabecquerels of "beta/gamma" contamination per square metre of soil

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/2011/fukushima240311.html

I for one would like to see the raw numbers collected by The Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization.
 
  • #1,739
Reno Deano said:
BTW, IAEA must have taken the day off!

Silence from the IAEA for 30 hours. Unusual, as they have updated several times a day most days.
 
  • #1,740
jlduh said:
Are those leaked (no joke) documents or are these official releases? These scanned or Xeroxed documents always look like leaked ones (don't they use word or excel files for generating docs and releasing them officially?)

By the looks (and by experiece of photographing documents) they seem to be photographed documents. Please note the Pu sampling report id from the 22nd today is the 28th and Tepco only made official statement on 28th - why not on 22 or 23rd

I posted this earlier
//www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/28_19.html said:
Edano said he has received a report that the radioactive substances are assumed to be either condensed steam from the reactor containment vessel or radioactive substances diluted by the water released into those facilities as part of cooling efforts

indicates very much like receiving information from non Tepco source
and what does "released into those facilities as part of cooling effort" mean
 
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