News Jeremiah Wright: Why does Mr. Obama support him?

[Poop-Loops]

Entire post.

What I love about politics is that anybody can claim total knowledge of a person based only on what they have read or seen on the news.

I might be going out on a limb here, but you've never actually met Obama or Wright before, have you? Have you eaten dinner with them? Played pool over some beers?

No, I don't think so. So I can't possibly imagine why you are speculating on either party so deeply.

Saying Wright wants to start a war against the white race? Or that you know Obama isn't like that? How can you?

First of all, it makes more sense that Wright simply makes money from the conflict you mentioned. He doesn't give a damn about starting a revolution, but he'll keep preaching about it, because that's what pays the bills. I've seen it before many times. My idea is a lot more probable than some conspiracy to overthrow the white race in America. How would they do it? Contract the gags in NY and LA? Believe it or not, Blacks do NOT have some sort of Hive Mind, and you can't just ask some random black person about what the black community thinks about an issue. The whole idea is so f-ing retarded. So, now that we've established that blacks are individuals, what makes you think a vast majority of them living in the US would band together with Wright and Co?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

From 1959 to 1961, Wright attended Virginia Union University,[1] in Richmond. Inspired by President John F. Kennedy's 1961 challenge to "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country," Wright gave up his student deferment, left college and joined the United States Marine Corps and became part of the 2nd Marine Division with the rank of private first class. In 1963, after two years of service, Wright then transferred to the United States Navy and entered the Corpsman School at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, where he graduated as valedictorian.[10][6] Having excelled in corpsman school, Wright was then trained as a cardiopulmonary technician at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland where he graduated as salutatorian.[6] Wright was assigned as part of the medical team charged with care of President Lyndon B. Johnson (see photo of Wright caring for Johnson after his 1966 surgery). Before leaving the position in 1967, the White House awarded Wright three letters of commendation.[11][12][13]

In 1967 Wright enrolled at Howard University in Washington, D.C., where he earned a bachelor's degree in 1968 and a master’s degree in English in 1969. He also earned a master's degree from the University of Chicago Divinity School.[6] Wright holds a Doctor of Ministry degree (1990) from the United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio, where he studied under Samuel DeWitt Proctor, a mentor to Martin Luther King.[14]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cc/Jeremiah_Wright_Dec_1961_Boot_Camp_Graduation.jpg/100px-Jeremiah_Wright_Dec_1961_Boot_Camp_Graduation.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright

He joined the Marines just as Vietnam was heating up.

 

[Astronuc]

Analysis: Rev. Wright's Comments on 'Black Church'
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90024842

Morning Edition, April 29, 2008 · The Rev. Jeremiah Wright told the National Press Club that attacks on him are really attacks on the black church. Earlier comments about race and the Sept. 11 attacks by Barack Obama's former pastor have caused controversy for the presidential campaign.

Juan Williams makes some interesting comments. I think one needs to realize that Wright speaks for Wright - not Obama, not the African American community, not even Trinity Church necessarily - but himself.

Some are concerned that Wright is try to use his religious affiliation as a shield against critics.

Wright Decries 'Out of Context' Criticisms of Sermon
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90011520

Rev. Wright: Critics Are Attacking Black Church
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89999246

NPR.org, April 28, 2008 · The Rev. Jeremiah Wright says criticisms of his fiery sermons are an attack on the black church. Wright, presidential hopeful Barack Obama's former pastor, has begun speaking out since national attention fell on controversial opinions he expressed in the past.

Speaking at Washington's National Press Club on Monday, one day after he got a standing ovation for his speech at an NAACP meeting in Detroit, Wright said he hopes the controversy will have a positive outcome and will lead to an honest dialogue about race in America. Black church traditions are still invisible to many Americans, as they have throughout the country's history, he said.

Wright said the black church tradition is not bombastic or controversial. It is simply different — and misunderstood by the dominant culture in the United States, he said.

The bolded statement is certainly controversial. To criticize Wright or his sermons is not an attack on any church.

This is not going away any time soon.

 

[W3pcq]

If he is so smart and patriotic, then why did he mess things up for Obama so bad. A, he isn't really that smart after all, or B, he is that smart and doesn't care about Obama being president or not, or C, doesn't want Obama to be president.

Just because he was a marine doesn't mean he going to be patriotic now. Maybe that is where some of his resentment comes from?

I am not saying anything about the african american community. Is simply said that Obama considers himself a member of it. Wright being someone who does do a lot of good for the african american community in many ways. So I can see how Obama may get involved with him with nothing but good intentions. I do not blame Obama for Wright at all except the fact that he accepted him as a spiritual advisor, which makes me question on some level, Obamas judgment.

 

[Esoteric]

Wright doesn't appear to understand or be making that distinction. He does mention objects hung above a crib, which implies genetic differences (too early to get culture). But in any case, it's a moot point: the "white" way of learning has been proven to work. The "black" way doesn't actually exist and never has. If I were a black parent raising a child today, I would want to educate that child in a way that exists and is known to work, not try to 'fight the system'. It is the fighting against reality, more than anything else, that creates the divisions and puts blacks below whites in the US.

It appears so...I thought that lot of what the rev said was rubbish, but he has an idea, and that's fine. I disagree with most of it respectfully. However, one thing i do agree with is that black African learning style did exist. The main forum of the African historian was the ritual celebration, amidst drumming, dances and costumes. He used pneumonic devices to retain the vast amount of knowledge he was expected to store, and this explains the "folksy" or "tall-tale" nature of the griot's craft.

The rev makes a mistake in assuming that there's an unbroken continuity of African cultural learning style which is an obstacle to blacks learning process today...he appears to be unaware that prior to the 1960's black students performed on par with White students but with integration Black neighborhoods became less diverse class wise. So working class black children had less positive role models to look up to within their vicinity.

 

[Esoteric]

The bolded statement is certainly controversial. To criticize Wright or his sermons is not an attack on any church.

This is not going away any time soon.

I'm not one to stifle free speech but I think he needs to shut up and go away until after the election. He is a self promoter like most religious figure heads in America.

 

[TVP45]

.he appears to be unaware that prior to the 1960's black students performed on par with White students but with integration Black neighborhoods became less diverse class wise.

Do you have a source on this? Rosenberg and Simmons did a ton of research on this subject throughout the 60s and 70s and came up with a different conclusion. Are you aware that some Virginia counties provided little or no (yes, I mean no) schooling for Black students in the 1950s? What do you suppose that did to academic performance?

 

[russ_watters]

What I love about politics is that anybody can claim total knowledge of a person based only on what they have read or seen on the news.

I might be going out on a limb here, but you've never actually met Obama or Wright before, have you? Have you eaten dinner with them? Played pool over some beers?

No, I don't think so. So I can't possibly imagine why you are speculating on either party so deeply?

It's pretty simple: we have to choose who to vote for and this information is all we have to go on. So we have to make our judgements based on this information. That requires some educated guesses.

That Wright is a militant separatist is relatively clear - he's pretty explicit about his statements to that effect. How closely Obama follows his beliefs is obviously an open question, but the association between the two men will make people wonder about it and make them uncomfortable about voting for him.

 

[russ_watters]

It strikes me that this may be what saves him, if anything can. Wright was so over-the-top yesterday that that Obama may start to appear more a victim of a friend gone looney than someone to be feared.

As I've said before, Obama is trapped by this situation. He almost has to respond to Wright and he did - much more forcefully than the last time. And if he gives any response, the forceful disavowal is the right one. But then he risks starting a war between himself and Wright.

Incidentally, you and I have probably never agreed on anything quite so closely as I agreed with your previous post about Wright.

 

[russ_watters]

I alluded to it but didn't see anyone specifically mention it, so here is Obama, today, essentially recinding what he said about Wright in that speech in Philly that everyone loved:

"I gave him the benefit of the doubt in my speech in Philadelphia explaining that he's done enormous good. ... But when he states and then amplifies such ridiculous propositions as the U.S. government somehow being involved in AIDS. ... There are no excuses. They offended me. They rightly offend all Americans and they should be denounced."...

"What became clear to me was that he was presenting a world view that contradicts what I am and what I stand for," Obama said...

"The person I saw yesterday was not the person that I met 20 years ago," Obama said of the man who married him.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-04-29-obama-wright_N.htm

 

[edward]

Obama Has Finally disavowed Wright, but I doubt that the issue will go away.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/04/obama_disavows.html

On the other side McCain so far has slipped the noose with Hagee, who is also very controversial.

After McCain flew to Hagee's side for an endorsement and press conference, why didn't we hear Hagee's ugliest remarks over and over on the air? Hagee calling the Catholic church a whore, Hagee saying that Hurricane Katrina was punishment for gay pride plans, or Hagee, shouting halleluiahs at the altar of his bloodthirsty vision? It's all about who owns the media--and who clips the bites.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/mccains-glass-house-hagee_b_99236.html

 

[~christina~]

From the only TV interview with Pastor Wright:

I found the video version:

Very bad ju ju, I think.

I have a magazine clipping of a soap company that is selling voodoo soap. It can wash away "bad juju"

I laugh everytime I look at the advertisement.

 

[Cyrus]

Bla, I watched five mins of Rev. Wright. What an idiot. The US gov made AIDS to give to the poor people......wow. The guys a racist idiot.

 

[Poop-Loops]

Why would you give AIDS to the poor people? They make the rich people rich.

 

[hserse]

Obama has finally fallen into the rightwing political strategic moves of FOX (mainly), CNN, ABC with this revend Wright issue. I predict he would not win the nominee, and if he does he wouldn't win the general.

Here is the strategy which the rightwing pundits and media has played.

1. Repeatively reruning and bringing up this issue to the forefront, so either Obama or Wright would be pressured to speak up. When either one speakup the FOX news (sean hannity, orielly, etc...) would disect (instigate, insinuate, etc.. on FOX) every single words coming out of their mouth.
2. They finally got OBAMA to give a speech in Philly about race issues.. And we thought that was over. Of course, FOX and friends and many anchors from CNN (Lou Dobb, Anderson, etc.), ABC began questionings the sincerity, trustworthiness of his speech, and should Obama disowning his pastor and so forth. Again, again, and again.. they keep replaying the 30 second clip of Wright's comment. It's like groundhog day for the past several weeks.

3. Now finally, they got Wright to come out to defend his sermons of 30 years against the 30 seconds snippets. Of course as a libertarian pastor and with his egos, he went all out (of course every words he has spoken are true). But of course, the pundits (mainly supporter of Clintons, and McCain and FOX) again disecting his words w/ additional negative commentary for their own political gain.

4. New Press club (Clinton camps may have a hand in this) invites revend for an interview... and as a pastor, he went all out again. You know the rest about his comments.

5. Now Obama is forced to disavowed and distance (much farther) himself from the revend. Remember FOX news and friends wants and repeatively advocating that Obama should disavow the revend when it first started.

6. Now, after OBAMA give a press released of him disowning the revend, hannity and friends begins their usual poliitics saying his disavowing the reverend is "only for political gain" A perpetual politics in motion...

In my opinion, Obama shouldn't have to distance himself from the revend.
For those who believes the 30seconds snippet- those people are not the type of people who are open minded and aren't willing to listen to the whole sermon, and much less investigate and research towards the truth. They are either ignorant or afraid to questions the past, to question one's self, to question one's nation inorder to strive toward fixing the problem.

I don't know if this nation is ready for CHANGE, even after 8 years of Bush! Let's vote for McCain or Hillary- we can go bomb IRAN, Syria, Palestine.. We got the might and power. We would only loose 1 soldier per 100 terrorists we've killed and it will SHOCK and AWE. Let's forget the 4,000+ soldier killed, 1 million+ IRAQIs killed and displaced, gas price up, the world is hating US, China is growing power, IRAN developing nuclear, environment in jeopardy, healthcare and social security system are about to tank.

But, but, buh revend Wright's, his intolerable and hating America speech and our prestine way of life... You know what America, you are lucky to have honorable Marine to remind our failures. I guess you prefer Cheney and Bush to tell you how great America is, while they scr*w you from beh***

 

[Cyrus]

Now finally, they got Wright to come out to defend his sermons of 30 years against the 30 seconds snippets. Of course as a libertarian pastor and with his egos, he went all out (of course every words he has spoken are true). But of course, the pundits (mainly supporter of Clintons, and McCain and FOX) again disecting his words w/ additional negative commentary for their own political gain.

No, its a bunch of crap. The government gave poor people Aids? Gimme a break.

Now Obama is forced to disavowed and distance (much farther) himself from the revend. Remember FOX news and friends wants and repeatively advocating that Obama should disavow the revend when it first started.

Yes, because the guys a NUT.

Now, after OBAMA give a press released of him disowning the revend, hannity and friends begins their usual poliitics saying his disavowing the reverend is "only for political gain" A perpetual politics in motion...

You watch hannity and friends and take them seriously?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I can't help but wonder if this is a bit like a good scientist going crackpot in his later years. There have been many examples of this, and I would assume that the same thing could happen to ministers. Obama stated that the Wright of today is not the man he met twenty years ago, and that may well be true. Also, it was reported that Wright's friends begged Wright not to do this, but he wouldn't listen.

Incidentally, Obama and Wright specifically deny that Wright was his spiritual mentor or advisor. They both describe Wright as his pastor. Truthfully, that doesn't really mean much. If their relationship was that mundane, I don't expect this to stick. That is to say that Fox will certainly never let it die, but if Obama can still take the nomination, I don't see this working endlessly. The real question is how the voters will react next week, and what effect this will have on the superdelegates.

 

[drankin]

Obama might have to throw him under the bus... and then drive back and forth over him if he stays in the spotlight.

 

[~christina~]

Obama might have to throw him under the bus... and then drive back and forth over him if he stays in the spotlight.

 

[Astronuc]

Incidentally, Obama and Wright specifically deny that Wright was his spiritual mentor or advisor.

I was wondering about this. I did a search yesterday, and all I found was a lot folks claiming Wright as Obama's spiritual advisor. What I did not find was Obama claiming that.

So at the moment, I'd have to conclude that those making a such a claim are attributing words to Obama, which he himself did not say.

Basically such statements seem to constitute a blend of innuendo, slander and libel.

 

[chemisttree]

5:52 “If we have more black men in our prisons than in our colleges and universities, then it’s time to take the bullet out!” -Barak Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofbUK85bnwY&feature=related

37% of black male high school graduates are currently enrolled in college and university. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3919177/

Black and Hispanic college students – commuters and those in dorms- far outnumber Black and Hispanic inmates.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21001543/

So where does Obama get the idea that “we have more black men in our prisons than in our colleges and universities”? It has been preached by Rev. Wright of course.

So much for Obama not hearing the more onerous preachings of the race-baiter Wright…

 

[Gokul43201]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofbUK85bnwY&feature=related

37% of black male high school graduates are currently enrolled in college and university. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3919177/

Black and Hispanic college students – commuters and those in dorms- far outnumber Black and Hispanic inmates.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21001543/

So where does Obama get the idea that “we have more black men in our prisons than in our colleges and universities”? It has been preached by Rev. Wright of course.

So much for Obama not hearing the more onerous preachings of the race-baiter Wright…

That's the most contorted clutching at straws I've seen in a while C-tree. For one thing, to complete your line of thought, you need to at least show evidence that this has been "preached" by Wright. And even then it won't take on even a semblance of a reasonable argument.

Besides, isn't it far more likely that it was just a loose restatement of the Census reports that have be quoted by Civil Rights activists at least dozens of times now?

WASHINGTON (AP) -- More than three times as many black people live in prison cells as in college dorms, the government said in a report to be released Thursday.

The ratio is only slightly better for Hispanics, at 2.7 inmates for every Latino in college housing.

Among non-Hispanic whites, more than twice as many live in college housing as in prison or jail.

This discussion has gotten ridiculous beyond the point of absurdity.

 

[Astronuc]

So where does Obama get the idea that “we have more black men in our prisons than in our colleges and universities”? It has been preached by Rev. Wright of course.

So much for Obama not hearing the more onerous preachings of the race-baiter Wright…

Not quite.

How about the American Council on Education and the University of Wisconsin as sources?

http://www.acenet.edu/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=3719&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm This article is dated Oct 2003.

But ( http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm ) -

About a third of African American men are under the supervision of the criminal justice system, and about 12% of African American men in their 20s and 30s are incarcerated.

This has been a long standing concern by organizations such as the NAACP, UNCF, many universities, . . . . Wright may repeat it, but it is discussed by many, many others.

 

[chemisttree]

That's the most contorted clutching at straws I've seen in a while C-tree. For one thing, to complete your line of thought, you need to at least show evidence that this has been "preached" by Wright.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfNEfEBYIZs"

And even then it won't take on even a semblance of a reasonable argument.

Besides, isn't it far more likely that it was just a loose restatement of a Census study that has be quoted by Civil Rights activists at least dozens of times now.

If you mean lied about and mis-quoted, then I can see your narrow point. Loose restatement? Like Hillary's "misrememberances"? A lie is a lie. Who knows were Obama heard it. I'm saying that it is an identical interpretation as Wright's.

This discussion is getting ridiculous to the point of hilarity.

Clutching at straws? You must mean the highly contorted (and meaningless) statistic of dormitory residence numbers vs actual enrollment at colleges and universities. FYA, some people who go to college and university actually live off campus. Hilarious indeed!

 

[chemisttree]

I was wondering about this. I did a search yesterday, and all I found was a lot folks claiming Wright as Obama's spiritual advisor. What I did not find was Obama claiming that.

So at the moment, I'd have to conclude that those making a such a claim are attributing words to Obama, which he himself did not say.

Basically such statements seem to constitute a blend of innuendo, slander and libel.

Sen. Barack Obama's Pastor Frames Progressive Issues Through Lens of Faith, Religion News Service, March 10, 2005
But when talking about how religious conservatives have pushed issues such as gay rights and stem cell research into the forefront, [Wright’s] voice becomes taut and his rebuke direct.
Those who focus on these issues are building themselves up at the expense of others and, while the Bible has many references to right and wrong, Jesus only spoke against people who judged others, Wright says.
"Are you following Jesus when you are vilifying people?" Wright asks. "The answer to that question is no."
It's no coincidence that Wright's response to these issues is similar to that of Obama, Illinois' newest senator and one of the Democratic Party's leading lights in trying to frame traditional liberal issues as moral and religious imperatives.
Obama met Wright 20 years ago in the process of trying to get Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ involved in some community organizing he was doing. Ever since, Obama has been a devoted member of Wright's church. Obama says that Wright is not only his pastor, but he also is his friend and mentor. And Wright is one of the people to whom he turns [to] help him explain how his liberal positions jibe with his faith.

'I HAVE A DEEP FAITH,' Chicago Sun-Times, April 5, 2004
These days, [Obama] says, he attends the 11 a.m. Sunday service at Trinity in the Brainerd neighborhood every week — or at least as many weeks as he is able. His pastor, Wright, has become a close confidant.

Keeping the Faith, In These Times, February 28, 2005
Wright and Obama developed a close relationship in the intervening years, and Obama counts the Reverend among his spiritual advisers. When a reporter asked Wright what advice he would give Obama upon election to the Senate, Wright said, "My advice to him: Please stay the same as you've been ever since I've known you."

Obama's Real Faith, Investor's Business Daily, January 23, 2007
Obama, meanwhile, has been getting in touch with his African roots. . . .
"I believe in the power of the African-American religious tradition to spur social change," he recently asserted. He said his faith has also led him to question "the idolatry of the free market." This reflects Trinity church doctrine that no African-American can really rise to the top echelons of a "racist, competitive" white society on merit.
Obama, in turn, calls the dashiki-wearing minister of this militantly black church his "spiritual adviser" and mentor. The Rev. Jeremiah Wright said of Obama and his other congregants: "We are an African people, and remain true to our native land, the mother continent." He wants health care for all and more housing for the poor, and calls those who voted for President Bush (and his tax cuts) stupid.

Barack Obama, Candidate for President, is 'UCC,' PR Newswire US, February 9, 2007
In November 2004, during his acceptance speech following his election to the Senate, Obama expressed appreciation for the support of Trinity UCC's members. The Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., pastor of Trinity UCC, is one of Obama's close spiritual advisors and is credited with giving inspiration to the title of Obama's bestselling book, "The Audacity of Hope." Obama says he first heard Wright use the phrase in one of his stirring sermons.
"Trinity UCC has been a true community to me — a place in which the mind, heart and soul come together to celebrate God's goodness," Obama told United Church News in 2004.

Black power sermons test Democrats' faith in presidential hopeful, The Sunday Telegraph (LONDON), February 11, 2007
The senator, 45, who describes the Rev Mr Wright as a mentor and spiritual adviser, acknowledged that he too was struck by the call to disavow "middleclassness'' when he first visited the church 20 years ago as a community activist who had just moved to Chicago.
"As I read it at least, it was a very simple argument taken directly from the Scripture: 'To whom much is given, much is required','' he told the Chicago Tribune. More generally, he argued, the document "espouses profoundly conservative values of self-reliance and self-help'' for black advancement.

Ethnic identity isn't black and white, Chicago Sun Times, March 25, 2007
[A]t the last minute, Obama disinvited Wright to speak last month when he officially announced his presidential candidacy. Wright says that Obama now realizes that his political handlers gave him bad advice and that all is well between him and the senator.

IS OBAMA BLACK ENOUGH? Why do you ask?, Chicago Tribune, March 11, 2007
Obama had come under fire for being a member of Trinity United Church of Christ, whose tenets are based on what it calls the Black Value System. Conservatives said the church was separatist, anti-middle-class and too Afrocentric for a candidate who speaks eloquently of constructing bridges along race and class lines. Obama has defended his church, saying it promotes self-reliance and self-help and should be a conservative's dream. . . .
For some, the idea of Obama distancing himself from the man he has called his mentor and spiritual adviser is anathema and is looked on as the candidate selling out.

So I guess that Barak has sold out now? For denouncing a hateful, angry, bitter, racist? (who probably clings to his religion and owns guns…)
That’s not selling out… that’s waking up.
All quotes retrieved from the website “”http://volokh.com/posts/1209531850.shtml#contact”[/URL][/i]

 

[chemisttree]

Not quite.

How about the American Council on Education and the University of Wisconsin as sources?

http://www.acenet.edu/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=3719&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm This article is dated Oct 2003.

But ( http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/RacialDisparities.htm ) - This has been a long standing concern by organizations such as the NAACP, UNCF, many universities, . . . . Wright may repeat it, but it is discussed by many, many others.

There is absolutely nothing in the link you posted that discusses the prison population vs college enrollment for black men. How is this relevant?

You do remember that the post quoted the (incorrect) statistic that there are more black men in prison than in our colleges and universities?

 

[BobG]

That's the most contorted clutching at straws I've seen in a while C-tree. For one thing, to complete your line of thought, you need to at least show evidence that this has been "preached" by Wright. And even then it won't take on even a semblance of a reasonable argument.

Besides, isn't it far more likely that it was just a loose restatement of the Census reports that have be quoted by Civil Rights activists at least dozens of times now?

WASHINGTON (AP) -- More than three times as many black people live in prison cells as in college dorms, the government said in a report to be released Thursday.

The ratio is only slightly better for Hispanics, at 2.7 inmates for every Latino in college housing.

Among non-Hispanic whites, more than twice as many live in college housing as in prison or jail.

This discussion has gotten ridiculous beyond the point of absurdity.

The http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/27/census.prisons.ap/index.html also explicitly mentions that off-campus students aren't included. I can't believe a reputable journalist would base his whole story on a meaningless statistic pulled out of context and feel he did an honest job by including the disclaimer and then immediately blowing it off with a "nonetheless".

The problem with a candidate using that is that it gives the impression that the candidate and his staff just peruse the headlines without actually reading any content. Or else he's intentionally cherry picking data to support his talking points rather than basing his positions on real information.

Of course, Obama never actually said this was true or relevant. He said if it's true. If listeners misconstrue what he actually said, then it's because they weren't reading the fine print. As usual, any time you listen to a politician, you need a lawyer sitting beside you to interpret.

 

[Astronuc]

You do remember that the post quoted the (incorrect) statistic that there are more black men in prison than in our colleges and universities?

I do remember a conditional statement beginning with "IF . . . ".

But using the 37% of graduates (if that is correct, or is it of all African American who attended high school, and who didn't drop out - and is that 18-yr old, 18-22 yr olds? . . . , and then allowing for retention rates), then one can compare to 12% of all African American males in their 20's and 30's. One needs to know the respective populations. So the numbers are relevant to the discussion.

If one took 37% of 18 year olds (or 17-19 yrs) and compared to 12% of 20-39 yr olds, one might find the latter is the larger population.

Obama may have received incorrect or inaccurate information on which he reflected, but that certainly doesn't implicate that his comment is based on some comment by Wright.

 

[Gokul43201]

Who knows were Obama heard it. I'm saying that it is an identical interpretation as Wright's.

No, you were claiming specifically that he heard it from Wright.

So where does Obama get the idea that “we have more black men in our prisons than in our colleges and universities”? It has been preached by Rev. Wright of course.

So much for Obama not hearing the more onerous preachings of the race-baiter Wright…

Thing is, this little statistic has made the rounds through virtually every news outlet and most of them use the headline that is most eyecatching (along the lines that there are more blacks living in prisons than in college campuses).

Besides, only a third of Blacks enrolled in college ever graduate, and the important statistic is not the number that gets in but the number that gets out with a degree.

Nearly thrice as many Blacks have graduated from prison as compared to those that have graduated from college. Would you have preferred it said that way?

 

[mheslep]

Well I propose locking the thread and getting back to what the candidates do and say. Wright is whack job, the Senator said as much, and now I have little interest in any more comment by or about Wright.

 

[chemisttree]

I do remember a conditional statement beginning with "IF . . . ".

But using the 37% of graduates (if that is correct, or is it of all African American who attended high school, and who didn't drop out - and is that 18-yr old, 18-22 yr olds? . . . , and then allowing for retention rates), then one can compare to 12% of all African American males in their 20's and 30's. One needs to know the respective populations. So the numbers are relevant to the discussion.

If one took 37% of 18 year olds (or 17-19 yrs) and compared to 12% of 20-39 yr olds, one might find the latter is the larger population.

Obama may have received incorrect or inaccurate information on which he reflected, but that certainly doesn't implicate that his comment is based on some comment by Wright.

The completion rate for white males in 2000 was approximately 92%. That of black males was approximately 84%. http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/2002114.pdf

How far will you go in your attempt to believe this awful lie. Why is it so easy to believe such a negative statistic? What part of, "Black and Hispanic college students – commuters and those in dorms- far outnumber Black and Hispanic inmates." don't you believe or want to believe?

 

[chemisttree]

Besides, only a third of Blacks enrolled in college ever graduate, and the important statistic is not the number that gets in but the number that gets out with a degree.

Nearly thrice as many Blacks have graduated from prison as compared to those that have graduated from college. Would you have preferred it said that way?

Strawman.

 

[W3pcq]

I'm sick of hearing everyone buy into the idea that this shouldn't be an issue that should be discussed. The man is running for president. The idea that we don't need to know anything about him, just believe everything he says on the campaign is such bull. They keep brainwashing it into peoples minds that anything bad for Obama is just media B.S. Don't people want to know real things. Is the argument that we are so dumb that we are going to fall for all the tricks. Why can't we see all the angles and decide for ourself.

Also the idea that Obama isn't that close to Wright, the word play, advisor, mentor, pastor, is all such B.S. I think it is obvious what role he has played in Obamas life. In Obamas first denunciation, he said Wright was like family to him, he said wright helped him find god, Obama wrote a book and titled it after one of wrights sermons. This is not just a pastor, this is more, what you want to call the relationship, I don't know, but it is obvious.

CNN has been all for Obama the whole time, and even during the Wright controversy. The CNN news team were teary eyed after Wrights comments, even they were forced to address the issue which looks bad from any angle. All this time they have been defending Wright, saying it is just out of context short clips, all of that has been a lie, Wright is actually represented well by those clips. Of coarse fox takes it to a new level, but they don't even have to do much, the issue itself is a biggie.

The biggest issue is the idea that Obama will say whatever he needs to get elected, of coarse he will just as Hillary will, that is the very nature of running. After Wright speaks, every says, "He is going to really need to throw Wright under the bus after this one to get past it." So what does he do, no brainer. His words have probably been carefully chosen by think tanks. I take no notice to any of that B.S., I look at the facts. I'm not saying that the issue is going to make me not vote for Obama, I'm just sick of the dishonesty behind trying to make it a non issue.

 

[BobG]

No, you were claiming specifically that he heard it from Wright.

Thing is, this little statistic has made the rounds through virtually every news outlet and most of them use the headline that is most eyecatching (along the lines that there are more blacks living in prisons than in college campuses).

Besides, only a third of Blacks enrolled in college ever graduate, and the important statistic is not the number that gets in but the number that gets out with a degree.

Nearly thrice as many Blacks have graduated from prison as compared to those that have graduated from college. Would you have preferred it said that way?

Actually, a third of black men graduate (as compared to about two-thirds of white students and nearly half of black women).

Main difference: Money. White graduates and black graduates come from families with about the same mean income. 69% of black drop outs quit because of money while 43% of white drop outs quite because of money.

There's also some other proposed reasons, but none of those are as significant as money.

http://www.jbhe.com/preview/winter07preview.html

Somewhere along the way, there is a point that blacks face a disadvantage in graduating from college, but the story making the rounds is still garbage.

 

[chemisttree]

The completion rate for white males in 2000 was approximately 92%. That of black males was approximately 84%. http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/2002114.pdf

It should read:

The completion rate for whites (male and female) in 2000 was approximately 92%. That of blacks (male and female) was approximately 84%.

 

[Gokul43201]

Strawman.

You notice, I began that section with the word 'besides'. That means I'm making an additional point - one that addresses what is actually the relevant statistic here.

 

[mheslep]

...I'm not saying that the issue is going to make me not vote for Obama, I'm just sick of the dishonesty behind trying to make it a non issue.

The past Obama-Wright relationship is an issue, but there is no more current Obama-Wright relationship. Anything that Wright has to say from now on is meaningless - Britney Spears bling. So I say give the issue whatever weight you feel warranted, factor it in and move on.

 

[drankin]

The past Obama-Wright relationship is an issue, but there is no more current Obama-Wright relationship. Anything that Wright has to say from now on is meaningless - Britney Spears bling. So I say give the issue whatever weight you feel warranted, factor it in and move on.

It's only a "past" relationship because he's running for President. If he weren't running for President there would still be a relationship. I think it's worth considering that that is the ONLY reason he severed his association. Wright hasn't changed after 20yrs of preaching in front of Obama. I think this is very important to determine the past influences of a potential world leader. It is very relevant, the media knows this, voters know this.

 

[Gokul43201]

It's only a "past" relationship because he's running for President. If he weren't running for President there would still be a relationship. I think it's worth considering that that is the ONLY reason he severed his association. Wright hasn't changed after 20yrs of preaching in front of Obama. I think this is very important to determine the past influences of a potential world leader. It is very relevant, the media knows this, voters know this.

Only in this country can your world view be shaped by your pastor!

Anyway, what I think is more worthy of consideration is that Obama joined the Trinity Church 20 years ago because that was the smart thing to do, to climb the Chicago political ladder.

Y'all are getting yourselves tied up in knots that Obama may be swallowing all the bitter, hate filled rants from Wright, while it troubles me that he's swallowing all the hokey angels and talking snakes nonsense.

 

[drankin]

Only in this country can your world view be shaped by your pastor!

Anyway, what I think is more worthy of consideration is that Obama joined the Trinity Church 20 years ago because that was the smart thing to do, to climb the Chicago political ladder.

Y'all are getting yourselves tied up in knots that Obama may be swallowing all the bitter, hate filled rants from Wright, while it troubles me that he's swallowing all the hokey angels and talking snakes nonsense.

Angels? Snakes?

 

[mheslep]

...Y'all are getting yourselves tied up in knots that Obama may be swallowing all the bitter, hate filled rants from Wright, while it troubles me that he's swallowing all the hokey angels and talking snakes nonsense.

Now this is interesting. You reject the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package-deal_fallacy" fallacy on ascribing Wright's rants to Obama, but dive right into package deal on ascribing the mythical/fringe/cultish aspects of the church to Obama. Why can't it be that Obama subscribes only to the main idea of the Church: love? If you can point to some snake handling episodes in Obama's life / bios please enlighten.

 

[Gokul43201]

Now this is interesting. You reject the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package-deal_fallacy" fallacy on ascribing Wright's rants to Obama, but dive right into package deal on ascribing the mythical/fringe/cultish aspects of the church to Obama.

I didn't know that the existence of angels was a mythical/fringe/cultish aspect of Christianity! I could just as well have gone with the virgin birth, the Ten Commandments or the existence of a God that sent a "son" to Earth 2 millenia ago.

And the difference between being informed by your pastor about socio-political views as opposed to the contents of your religious text is obvious.

Why can't it be that Obama subscribes only to the main idea of the Church: love?

It may be that he does, but it's the Church of God, not the Church of Love.

 

[mheslep]

It's only a "past" relationship because he's running for President. If he weren't running for President there would still be a relationship. I think it's worth considering that that is the ONLY reason he severed his association.

Well that's posed two ways: first as a fact, then as a possibility worth considering. It can't be known what would have happened. Yes it bears consideration and I'll keep it in mind going forward. Consider though: As a local politician he could have easily grabbed the pulpit some Sunday ala Bill Clinton and spouted off Wrightish rants, pandering to the crowd. No history of that. In academia he could have found equally sympathetic forums in which to pander Wrightisms. No record of that either. And so on. So in the meantime he continues to get the benefit of the doubt from me, though the margin has grown small.

Wright hasn't changed after 20yrs of preaching in front of Obama

Apparently Wright didn't come in every Sunday and exclaim the US invented AIDs and GD America, nor did the Senator show up that regularly. Yes Wiright married him, yes he took his kids to the church, yaddah, yaddah.

I think this is very important to determine the past influences of a potential world leader.

Absolutely. I suggest that now you have look elsewhere to determine more about Obama.

 

[drankin]

I didn't know that the existence of angels was a mythical/fringe/cultish aspect of Christianity! I could just as well have gone with the virgin birth, the Ten Commandments or the existence of a God that sent a "son" to Earth 2 millenia ago.

And the difference between being informed by your pastor about socio-political views as opposed to the contents of your religious text is obvious.

It may be that he does, but it's the Church of God, not the Church of Love.

I don't think we've had a professed athiest as a President... ever. I guess they figured out that the majority won't vote for one. So for you to be surprised that a candidate doesn't renounce religion is humorous.

 

[Gokul43201]

I don't think we've had a professed athiest as a President... ever.

Or a Black person, or a woman, or anyone in their 70s.

So for you to be surprised that a candidate doesn't renounce religion is humorous.

I never said I was surprised. Much to the contrary I posited that he may have initially embraced religion specifically for this purpose.

 

[mheslep]

And the difference between being informed by your pastor about socio-political views as opposed to the contents of your religious text is obvious.

It is obvious in both cases there is no real evidence that the Sen. embraces either Wrights views or a literal interpretation of the bible. In the later case you know Obama's "swallowing all the hokey angels and talking snakes nonsense" since, why? He's a monotheist? He went to church? He read the bible? No, its just an assumption, a package deal.

It may be that he does, but it's the Church of God, not the Church of Love.

To my mind in the Christian church they are supposed to be the same thing.

 

[Gokul43201]

It is obvious in both cases there is no real evidence that the Sen. embraces either Wrights views or a literal interpretation of the bible.

There is definitely evidence in his speeches to support my fear that he accepts a literal enough interpretation to trouble me. I only hope that he's been forced to up the ante on the Jesus-talk because of the rumors that he's a Muslim, and boy what a terrible thing that would be!

To my mind in the Christian church they are supposed to be the same thing.

I wish they were, but I've been to church and that was hardly the impression I got.

 

[Gokul43201]

I'm going to excuse myself from this specific discussion here - I'm not very good at talking about religious topics with the constraints we have against such discussion, and I'd rather desist than get myself banned.

 

[mheslep]

I'm going to excuse myself from this specific discussion here - I'm not very good at talking about religious topics with the constraints we have against such discussion, and I'd rather desist than get myself banned.

Probably wise advise for me too.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Heh, I find this all rather amusing, actually. I am quite sure that many of you would find the beliefs of all three candidates to be unacceptable.