News Jeremiah Wright: Why does Mr. Obama support him?

[Ivan Seeking]

I haven't checked to see if this came up already, but yesterday CNN played the entire video of Wright's controversial sermon. A surprise to me was that he only "damns" America IF we don't stop doing such and such... I had only seen his statements represented as an imperative and not in the subjunctive mood as it was actually expressed. That makes quite a difference!

 

[Amp1]

Sure does Ivan. Not only that much of what he said about chickens comming home to roost was true.

The US supported and put in power some of the worst dictators. Saddam H., The (former) Shah of Iran, was found GUILTY by the World Court of terrorist activities in Nicuragua.

The CIA's greatest hits - N. Chomsky
Why do people hate America - Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies

are two sources to find out about the chickens.

 

[TVP45]

Mr Jefferson

"Mr. Jefferson"? Are you a Hoo?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Let's not forget why the US&UK put The Shah into power either, it was because the Iranian pm at the time refused to grant favourable oil concessions to the UK and of course the US stood to gain from a favourable deal from a favourable leader.

I really don't see what politics has to do with religion in anything he says? Or according to the religion of The NT what right anyone has to judge in political terms. But to discuss why would be a render unto Caesar moment and that's religion. :/

This guy sounds like another Fred Phelps, maybe not as hard line, but definitely bigoted.

i don't know if i would say that it "was good for Europe" but i must confess that i am not a disinterested party. being a Mennonite and coming from the Anabaptist tradition (and ethnically from the same lines of Germans who are the Pennsylvania "Dutch"), i have distant ancestors who were persecuted to the point of burning at stake and drowning. there was even a case where one anabaptist "heretic" was drowned in a gunney sack tied shut with live (probably stray) cats tossed in the bag. cats were considered evil, too, from the western POV of the time.

Like I say I don't condone religious persecution, but I don't see how the Mennonites really effect politics anyway. Other than by their vote? Bear in mind I did say at least. I'm not condoning anything done in the name of Catholicism or Protestantism in Europe. This is why there's such a division of state and church though. In fact after looking at their beliefs, I think the Mennonites are not in the same league as some of the more evangelistic religions in the US.

I can see why they were controversial though.

* Freedom of religion
* Priesthood of all believers
* Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice
* Pacifism

Those are dangerous ideas. Well to Catholics anyway, placing authority in the common folk? Pacifism? Freedom of religion?

 

[Amp1]

Arildno, it doesn't seem to be hate but anger that Wright spewed. I notice how no one rebutted or attempted to argue against the posts I've read that say much of what Wright said is factually correct.

 

[mheslep]

didn't know anyone pandered to these groups and sought their endorsements.

Democratic candidate for President Jesse Jackson attended Farrakhan's Million Man march in '95 'without hesitation' when other's refused to attend.
http://www.time.com/time/special/million/1023time.html

[Rep] Gary Franks won't be going. He feels that Farrakhan's rhetoric is just as offensive to some whites as the Ku Klux Klan is to African-Americans. "The Ku Klux Klan hates blacks, Jews, and Catholics," Franks said. "The Nation of Islam hates whites, Jews and Catholics."

http://www.cnn.com/US/9510/megamarch/

With regards the whack job Wycoff on the video clip (equating homosexuality w/ murder), I wasn't aware anyone pandered to him either. As far as I can see the only common cause between the Republicans and the Moral Majority group is on abortion.

 

[mheslep]

"Mr. Jefferson"? Are you a Hoo?

Grad school

 

[Amp1]

Arildno, I'm assuming your not a christian. However if you are, what type of people did Jesus associate with... and in what way did his associating with them disuade him from his message or cause him to exhibit their behavior.

 

[mheslep]

...Might have something to do with us being staunchly and defiantly secular, for some very good reasons. It's called European history.

Funny, I would have said that E. history includes the crusades, the Inquisition, the 30 yrs war, on and on.

Yes I am aware that the Archbishop of C. does not speak in Parliment. The fact remains he's on the UK payroll and no other religions are so represented.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Funny, I would have said that E. history includes the crusades, the Inquisition, the 30 yrs war, on and on.

Yes I am aware that the Archbishop of C. does not speak in Parliment. The fact remains he's on the UK payroll and no other religions are so represented.

Did you know when the Knights of the first crusades asked if killing was wrong, as it was according to The Bible. He came back and said it's fine if it's infidels? I mean how scary is that? Killing in the name of? A pacifistic religion?

That's exactly what I meant, The 30 years war, the division of church that lead to both Catholic and Protestant persecution. The corruption and greed and politicisation of the Church, indulgences, the fact that priests were made celibate in the middle ages to protect the churches wealth from being passed to family members on their death, persecutions of Jews and Heretics. That's why we are now secular; religion and politics.

He's on the payroll because he works for a living? Is that wrong? he is not a representative though, his views do not pass parliament, and his views in the Lords are outvoted or ignored. So he has no power, no ability to affect policy, he might say ESCR is wrong, but no one is going to listen to him, unlike in the US, where you have to pander to the religious conservatives.

 

[Art]

Schrodinger's Dog for someone who lives there you have a very strange perception of the role of religion in the UK.

Not so long ago, and probably still happening in some places, councils ran by Presbyterians chained up the swings in kids' playgrounds every Sunday to ensure the Sabbath was adhered to and Sunday trading laws are still a major bone of contention.

On a national level although religion plays a smaller role in the Labour Party it is still a big deal with Conservatives and Parliament still begins each day with a prayer.

The UK is not secular! In legal terms the UK is a Protestant Christian state with the Anglican church being the established religion of England and Wales one consequence of which is Britain is the only country left in the democratic world that allows clerics to sit in its legislature as of right and another consequence being it is the established Protestant religion which is compulsorily taught in state schools.

The UK only voted to repeal blasphemy laws in March of this year although this has yet to be ratified (blasphemy laws which btw were restricted to statements against the established Protestant religion only)

This only passed because religious adherents including the C of E believed it's content was captured in the Racial and Religious Hatred Act of 2006 rendering it obsolete.

The US populace no doubt take their religion more seriously than their UK counterparts which is then obviously reflected in the stated views of politicians but to suggest the UK's political ambivalence to religion is due to clever deliberate secularisation by the UK government is totally misleading. It is purely down to the personal apathy of UK citizens.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Art do you live in the UK? Do you realize how secular we are? Tradition may still be tradition but it affects politics little. A recent poll showed that belief in a God or gods had gone from 79% in the 1960's to 49% and that includes all faiths. We are more secular than ever and sliding further that way. You may begin parliament with a prayer but that has nothing to do with the way parliament runs, and all to do with an outdated tradition.

Can you tell me the last time blasphemy laws were enforced? They are redundant under new laws as you say, they don't need repeal to be frank, apart from to clear out dead wood. It's still legal to shoot a Welshman with a crossbow when he ventures across the border of a weekend. Doesn't mean it's a particularly enforcible law.

It's not down to apathy it's down to the increasing secularisation of Europe. I never said it was deliberate, but in a democracy if no one cares about religious issues, and when they are raised they are mocked then apathy is a secular fault, so be it.

 

[Art]

Art do you live in the UK? Do you realize how secular we are? Tradition may still be tradition but it affects politics little. A recent poll showed that belief in a God or gods had gone from 79% in the 1960's to 49% and that includes all faiths. We are more secular than ever and sliding further that way. You may begin parliament with a prayer but that has nothing to do with the way parliament runs, and all to do with an outdated tradition.

Can you tell me the last time blasphemy laws were enforced? They are redundant under new laws as you say, they don't need repeal to be frank, apart from to clear out dead wood. It's still legal to shoot a Welshman with a crossbow when he ventures across the border of a weekend. Doesn't mean it's a particularly enforcible law.

It's not down to apathy it's down to the increasing secularisation of Europe. I never said it was deliberate, but in a democracy if no one cares about religious issues, and when they are raised they are mocked then apathy is a secular fault, so be it.

I did all of my schooling in the UK although I don't see how my domicile makes the slightest difference to the facts.

In a secular state there is a division between church and state. How can you possibly claim the UK is secular when the Protestant religion is a compulsory subject in state schools along with regular traipses to the local C of E for services on religious days? All mandated by the government.

The statistics you cite simply serve to affirm my contention that it is the British publics apathy to religion which diminishes it's influence on the political scene but it is certainly not through secular legislation.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I did all of my schooling in the UK although I don't see how my domicile makes the slightest difference to the facts.

In a secular state there is a division between church and state. How can you possibly claim the UK is secular when the Protestant religion is a compulsory subject in state schools along with regular traipses to the local C of E for services on religious days?

So environment makes no difference to your social status? Controversial?

RE is a compulsory. But that would be religious education not Christian education. They learn about world faiths now. And it's only compulsory up to secondary education, ie age 11, and it's part of the whole cultural integration thing.

Because 49% of people don't believe in God, that makes the majority unconcerned with religious issues. And those that are aren't generally Bible thumping evangelists, there evolutionary theolgists, or Sikhs or Hindus, Buddhists and so on, and liberal Christians in the main. Women Vicars, gay Vicars and so on in the Anglican Church. Even the Catholic Church has refused to condone ID and creationism.

 

[Art]

So environment makes no difference to your social status? Controversial?

RE is a compulsory. But that would be religious education not Christian education. They learn about world faiths now. And it's only compulsory up to secondary education, ie age 11, and it's part of the whole cultural integration thing.

Because 49% of people don't believe in God, that makes the majority unconcerned with religious issues. And those that are aren't generally Bible thumping evangelists, there evolutionary theolgists, or Sikhs or Hindus, Buddhists and so on, and liberal Christians in the main. Women Vicars, gay Vicars and so on in the Anglican Church. Even the Catholic Church has refused to condone ID and creationism.

Huh? So if everyone is so liberal how do you explain Dr Rowan Williams yielding to the African evangelical lobby and forcing the resignation of the Bishop-designate of Reading, Canon Jeffrey John, a celibate gay man whose cause he had previously advanced?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Huh? So if everyone is so liberal how do you explain Dr Rowan Williams yielding to the African evangelical lobby and forcing the resignation of the Bishop-designate of Reading, Canon Jeffrey John, a celibate gay man whose cause he had previously advanced?

Outside of the UK. I never said everyone is but Anglican vicars in the UK can be both gay and female or either or not. It's unfortunate but it's nothing to do with UK religion. I can give you the names of lesbian vicars, and gay vicars. It doesn't mean anything in terms of the liberalism of the CoE.

 

[Art]

Outside of the UK. I never said everyone is but Anglican vicars in the UK can be both gay and female or either or not. It's unfortunate but it's nothing to do with UK religion. I can give you the names of lesbian vicars, and gay vicars. It doesn't mean anything in terms of the liberalism of the CoE.

You do know Doctor Rowan Williams is the Archbishop of Canterbury and that Reading is in the UK don't you

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

You do know Doctor Rowan Williams is the Archbishop of Canterbury and that Reading is in the UK don't you

Yeah but what does that have to do with the liberalisation of the Church in the UK, because some bigots from wherever said they would leave the Anglican Church if they didn't get their way?

This is really OT anyway and I don't see what it has to do with secularisation. If anything it just confirms that some countries are living in the past. And that one person will not dictate policy of Anglicanism, no matter how powerful. There are gay Vicars and lesbian vicars, and female vicars. He doesn't define the Churches opinion he's as subject to ecumenical concerns as anyone else who is the leader of a religion. Despite being liberal on gay issues before he came to power, he still has to avoid schism.

 

[Art]

Yeah but what does that have to do with the liberalisation of the Church in the UK, because some bigots from wherever said they would leave the Anglican Church if they didn't get their way?

This is really OT anyway and I don't see what it has to do with secularisation. If anything it just confirms that some countries are living in the past.

The bottom line is UK politicians are every bit as capable and as likely to pander to religious groups if they see votes in it. There is nothing in the UK's state structures to prevent this from happening or even to make it less likely.

I also think you vastly underestimate the subtle influence of religion on UK politics today through groups such as the Masonic Lodge and even the Knights of Columbus whilst you blindly ignore the overt influence of religion in areas of the UK and it's dominions such as Scotland and NI.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

The bottom line is UK politicians are every bit as capable and as likely to pander to religious groups if they see votes in it. There is nothing in the UK's state structures to prevent this from happening or even to make it less likely.

I also think you vastly underestimate the subtle influence of religion on UK politics through groups such as the Masonic Lodge and even the Knights of Columbus.

Compared to the US, I think not. They might pander to voters, but policies are still decisively secular, and of course they only have to pander to a tiny, tiny minority of right wing conservative Christians, such as evangelists, particularly labour who aren't traditionally pro church anyway.

Let's ask an American if they think US policy is affected by religion? Let's likewise ask a UK citizen if this is so?

 

[Art]

Let's likewise ask a UK citizen if this is so?

Ahem, Iraq - Tony Blair - God. Sure you want to go there?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Ahem, Iraq - Tony Blair - God. Sure you want to go there?

Not a good example, the fact that he mentioned God, has really made him unpopular amongst traditional labour voters, and seen their popularity edge further towards Conservatives. One man does not a religious state make, even if he is TB. And thank Someone he's not in power any more, he was getting past his sell England by the Iraq war date.

 

[Art]

Not a good example, the fact that he mentioned God, has really made him unpopular amongst traditional labour voters, and seen their popularity edge further towards Conservatives. One man does not a religious state make, even if he is TB. And thank Someone he's not in power any more, he was getting past his sell England by the Iraq war date.

So unpopular he got reelected for a record 3rd term

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

So unpopular he got reelected for a record 3rd term

Conservatives got five terms, despite being really unpopular past the mid 80's. First past the post system, you have to overturn a massive majority when the government screws up massively. That means nothing. Their majority has been sliding since they got into power. Unlike Thatcher where it was rising until we realized what a right wing nut she was.

 

[Art]

Conservatives got five terms, despite being really unpopular past the mid 80's. First past the post system, you have to overturn a massive majority when the government screws up massively. That means nothing. Their majority has been sliding since they got into power. Unlike Thatcher where it was rising until we realized what a right wing nut she was.

SD no offense but are you really from the UK? Thatcher wasn't dumped by the electorate! Just like Blair she was dumped by her own party in a palace coup. IMO If the Tory party hadn't stabbed her in the back for not being right wing enough she'd still be PM. The British public loved her and many still do.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

SD no offense but are you really from the UK? Thatcher wasn't dumped by the electorate! Just like Blair she was dumped by her own party in a palace coup. IMO If the Tory party hadn't stabbed her in the back for not being right wing enough she'd still be PM. The British public loved her and many still do.

Are you? I didn't say she was, she would have been thus John Major. I suppose you're a Thatcherite then? Or are you from the UK at all. Or are you one of those people that wasn't born in the Thatcher years and didn't have to live through the riots, the distinct distaste for her policies, that now sees her through rose tinted spectacles? I was a conservative in the 80's until about 1988, then I became liberal and you can blame that right wing witch for that, nutcase who brought the country out of the gutter, then proceeded to throw it right back in again. All that was right with right wing politics and all that was wrong in one person.

 

[Art]

I'd be happy to discuss UK politics with you if you so wish.

If they are reading this perhaps one of the mentors would carve the last few posts off into a separate thread.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I'd be happy to discuss UK politics with you if you so wish.

If they are reading this perhaps one of the mentors would carve the last few posts off into a separate thread.

Me too but are you talking it or did you live it first hand, because these days, the Daily Mail readers have got it all out perspective? How old are you?

New thread needed start it yourself, I suggest, apologies for the threadjack.

Thatcher milk snatcher. Is there noting that woman wouldn't do to advance her greed is good idealism? Silly mare.

 

[Art]

Me too but are you talking it or did you live it first hand, because these days, the Daily Mail readers have got it all out perspective? How old are you?

It was after Thatcher got elected I voted with my feet and left the UK .

Thatcher milk snatcher. Is there noting that woman wouldn't do to advance her greed is good idealism? Silly mare

She did that when she was minister for education in the 70's under Heath and yet you still joined the conservative party in 1980 after she'd become leader. Shame on you

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

It was after Thatcher got elected I voted with my feet and left the UK .

Good for you, you got out while the going was still good, I presume?

She did that when she was minister for education in the 70's under Heath and yet you still joined the conservative party in 1980 after she'd become leader. Shame on you

I was 8 years old give me a break. We all make errors in our youth.