News Justice for Victims of Agent Orange

[hiphys]

To: The U.S. President and others
AGENT ORANGE, THE CHEMICAL, has killed, is still killing, and causing great suffering to over three million people in Vietnam.

PLEASE HELP THEM BY SIGNING THIS PETITION on http://www.petitiononline.com/AOVN/petition.html
We welcome and support the Civil Action brought by the Vietnam Association of Victims of Agent Orange/Dioxin, and three Vietnamese victims. The documents have been submitted to a court in New York, on behalf of all affected by the chemicals used by the American Forces in their War on Vietnam.

This will be the first ever such action by Vietnamese victims of Agent Orange in any court of law.

We call upon the U.S. President, Government and the Chemical Companies named as defendants in the documents, to accept their responsibilities for the damage caused by their actions and products, and to pay full compensation to the vict

 

[Adam]

Yep, I have signed. Such savage use of chemical weapons must be properly addressed at some point.

 

[hiphys]

Call for help

Agent Orange is still being blamed for birth defects more than 30 years since its use
Researchers reported at the conference that a new study shows extremely high levels of dioxin in the blood of residents of Bien Hoa, a highly sprayed area near a former U.S. air base, more than 30 years after spraying ended.

Some of the highest levels -- reaching 206 times greater than average -- were found in people born well after spraying stopped, indicating exposure to persistent dioxin residues in soil and water, the researchers said.

Dioxin, one of the most poisonous chemicals created by man, is also one of the most persistent pollutants.

Vietnam's cash-strapped government has not been able to clean up the dioxin pollution in Bien Hoa or resettle the area's 20,000 residents.

At the conference Vice Minister Nguyen talked of the need to clear the area of toxins.

"The objective is to bring dioxin contamination across Vietnam down to internationally acceptable levels and do all that can be done to mitigate the health effects," Nguyen said.

"The United States waged chemical warfare against Vietnam 30 years ago. Cooperation with the U.S. is very necessary."

Anne Sassaman of the U.S. National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences told the conference the talks over the next two days would deal with setting research priorities.

Collaboration started between the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and Vietnam would likely result in scientists in Vietnam being able to evaluate and define the extent of the residual hazard posed by Agent Orange and dioxin, she added.

Vietnam Veterans of America, which has lobbied for years to get compensation for its members, said it was anxious to see research move ahead in Vietnam.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Agent Orange was not a weapon.

 

[kat]

Well, I'm glad to see that they are having their day in court, but how does a petition help their court case? I'm feeling a bit dubious about the intentions of the petition. It would seem that it would have no relevancy whatsovever and that someone may instead be harvesting information and email addresses.

 

[JohnDubYa]

If the Vietnamese are having their day in court, what is the purpose of the petition in the first place? If the petition is being served to those involved in a trial, is it even legal?

 

[hiphys]

The purpose of this petition is collecting at least 300.000 signatures before December 2004.This petition will be sent to American government .
This program was created by Len Aldis, the president of Britain-Vietnam Friendship Society.He himself has seen the terrible effects of AGENT ORANGE on many Vietnamese in many generations. He wrote this petition to call the supports and notice of people around the world.
By signing this petition, you can show that you one of those who support the AGENT ORANGE affected Vietnamese.The petition can be consider as the voice of peace-lovers .
We close the past, but we can't forget it, and we need to do something to heal the sorrow.

 

[hiphys]

I wish that you can see the sorrow in an Agent orange affected child.Many children in Vietnam have been being stolen their childhood, their life by Agent orange .You can search "Agent orange " on Google to see what happened.
Vietnam has tried a lot to heal the sorrow of the war. It has been 29 years since the war ended, but the Agent orange still exists as the ghost of war.
It has killed, is still killing, and causing great suffering to over three million people in Vietnam...
Let the conscience say...

 

[hiphys]

**********PICTURE OF AN AGENT ORANGE AFFECTED CHILD********


"This is Le Minh Dat in Quang Tri ,Vietnam.
This photo was taken in 1998, when Dat was 13 years old.People said that he couldn't understand anything because his brain had "died".But I felt he still understood ! He lay on the bed, I had taken a lot of photos and looked at him for a long time.When I was going to leave, his eyes traced me and give his hand to me..."
Written by Philip Jones Griffiths,photographer.
The author, of "Agent orange “collateral damage” in Vietnam"

 

[member 5645]

By signing this petition, you can show that you one of those who support the AGENT ORANGE affected Vietnamese.


The petition can be consider as the voice of peace-lovers .

We close the past, but we can't forget it, and we need to do something to heal the sorrow.

Support them do what?


How is that? No one is petitioning against a war.

heal the sorrow? Sir, you will do better in your cause by not using cliches.

 

[member 5645]

We call upon the U.S. President, Government and the Chemical Companies named as defendants in the documents, to accept their responsibilities for the damage caused by their actions and products, and to pay full compensation to the vict

What exactly would I be signing? I personally would need proof that the chemical companies have any resposibility. I also don't know what "full compensation" means.

right now, I am leaning towards not signing, and I am very sympathetic to the plight of innocents afflicted by war.

 

[loseyourname]

We call upon the U.S. President to accept their responsibilities for the damage caused by their actions and products, and to pay full compensation to the vict

You do realize Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon are all dead, correct?

 

[fisipavia]

You do realize Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon are all dead, correct?

The President is a representative of his country. You cannot said that what have been done earlier by another president is not the responsibility of the ones that follow him. When they accept to become presidents they certainly do not become guilty of the bad things done by other presidents but they do have de responsibility to “correct” what has been done. In this case there is no way to correct what have been done but at least they can help these people. You cannot accept the presidency ignoring the effects of history, that is the effects that will have what you do and the effects of what is already done by others. So, in another words, when he speaks of the president's responsibilities he is talking about US responsibilities.

 

[loseyourname]

Does the president of Vietnam have a responsibility because the VC disguised themselves as civilians, resulting in many innocent civilian deaths?

 

[fisipavia]

That’s not my point. I am just saying that the US president does have a responsibility not matter what. After all the US army was the one that used Orange Agent. But answering to your question, yes… the Vietnam president have the responsibility to protect the well-being of Vietnam citizens and also the responsibility to demand justice for them , just as the US president have a responsibility with American citizens. I am not speaking of who is guilty, and by saying that US have a responsibility with those people I am not excluding other entities that also have the responsibility of helping them.

 

[loseyourname]

Is there any statute of limitations on how long a given nation's president owes reparations to the victims of actions taken by a former regime? Should the current president of Japan officially apologize and make payments to POW's who were tortured during WWII? Remember that this petition is asking for monetary compensation. The money that would be used it taxpayer money. Are the people paying taxes today responsible for actions taken by their nation's military several decades ago?

 

[JohnDubYa]

When they accept to become presidents they certainly do not become guilty of the bad things done by other presidents

George W. owes us an apology then for Clinton lying to us about Monica Lewinsky.

Sorry, but those that actually committed the acts are the only ones that are guilty.

 

[JohnDubYa]

He wrote this petition to call the supports and notice of people around the world.

To do what? Why is it that the answer to this question is so hard to come by?

 

[Adam]

George W. owes us an apology then for Clinton lying to us about Monica Lewinsky.

Sorry, but those that actually committed the acts are the only ones that are guilty.

So:

• Germany should cease paying off Israel for WW2?
• The USA should re-zone all native American reservations and such for development?
• Australia should re-zone all native Australian reservations and such for development?
• Swiss banks should tell Jewish families who were harmed during WW2 to go for a long walk of a short pier?
• The USA should ignore the fact that Agent Orange still causes deformity and death in Vietnam?

 

[hiphys]

Does the president of Vietnam have a responsibility because the VC disguised themselves as civilians, resulting in many innocent civilian deaths?

1. We call Vietnam war the people 's war.The Vietnamese civilians fight for themselves, for their country not for VC.If U.S were under attack in their land someday, would the American cilvilian fight for their country ?
2. Agent Orange was sprayed from the air plane, so could it distinguish VC among the Vietnamese civilians ? Agent Orange is a mass-killer, not only one generation but also many others..

 

[JohnDubYa]

* Germany should cease paying off Israel for WW2?

Is the German president guilty for the Holocaust?

* The USA should re-zone all native American reservations and such for development?

Should George W. be charged for the killing of Chief Joseph?

Australia should re-zone all native Australian reservations and such for development?

Should John Howard be charged for the murder of aborigines?

The words "responsible" and "guilt" are getting thrown around here a lot, and usually foolishly.

 

[hiphys]

No reason could be given to explain why the US sprayed such a poisonous chemical in Vietnam.Until that time, Dioxine was the most poisonous chemical that people could synthetize.
The American Government always criticize other countries developing chemical weapon, nuclear weapon, but they are the only country that used both of them and still develops nuclear weapons.
Someday, in some where, will they use them again if people continue to forget what they did in Vietnam ?

 

[JohnDubYa]

Okay, hiphys, let's try another question:

Is the current leader of Vietnam responsible for the torture of American POWs?

 

[jcsd]

Is there any statute of limitations on how long a given nation's president owes reparations to the victims of actions taken by a former regime? Should the current president of Japan officially apologize and make payments to POW's who were tortured during WWII? Remember that this petition is asking for monetary compensation. The money that would be used it taxpayer money. Are the people paying taxes today responsible for actions taken by their nation's military several decades ago?

They have, our family received a substantial sum a couple of years ago from the Japanese government for my Grandfather's internment at Changi (one of the worst POW camps), I'm not sure if this is the cas efor everyone tho', as my Grandfather was a civilian.

Of course the US should compensate the Vitenamese, not just for Agent Orange, but their appalling conduct in general in that war.

 

[jcsd]

Does the president of Vietnam have a responsibility because the VC disguised themselves as civilians, resulting in many innocent civilian deaths?

What apoligist rubbish, the US attacked the general Vietnamese population indiscrimately whether they had good reason to believ ethey were VC or not.

Vietnam is one of the blackest episodes in US history.

 

[hiphys]

I really don't want to discuss who was wrong or who was right in the war.
Every war has itself complex problem.To some Americans,that's the war to free Vietnamese from Communists.But to Vietnameses, that's the war to defend their homeland from the conquerers and their hands.We have different point of view. But now,the first,we should try to solve the remains.
It has been a long time after the war, and their victims may die someday without any justice.
Some people say that they don't have any responsibility for what their previous generations had done, so had the agent orange affected children made any mistake before they were born ?
A few dacades may be long to a person, but to a country,to the history, it's not so long.

 

[loseyourname]

1. We call Vietnam war the people 's war.The Vietnamese civilians fight for themselves, for their country not for VC.If U.S were under attack in their land someday, would the American cilvilian fight for their country ?
2. Agent Orange was sprayed from the air plane, so could it distinguish VC among the Vietnamese civilians ? Agent Orange is a mass-killer, not only one generation but also many others..

1. If they chose to fight, shouldn't they put up with the consequences? As soon as you pick up a gun, you're no longer an innocent bystander, you're an enemy target.

2. Well, what is it? Were they civilians that were of no threat, or did they fight?

What apoligist rubbish, the US attacked the general Vietnamese population indiscrimately whether they had good reason to believe they were VC or not.

What is good reason? When you go into one town and half your platoon is taken out by grenades thrown by some innocent-looking woman on a rice paddy, what would you do when you got to the next village? What documentation do you have that the US forces were ordered to kill indiscriminately?

To some Americans,that's the war to free Vietnamese from Communists.But to Vietnameses, that's the war to defend their homeland from the conquerers and their hands.We have different point of view.

What conquerors? Did somebody actually tell you that the US had plans to annex Vietnam or are you just making this up as you go along?

Some people say that they don't have any responsibility for what their previous generations had done, so had the agent orange affected children made any mistake before they were born ?

I'm sorry, but charging the manufacturer is a bit like charging Jack Daniels when a kid is born with fetal alcohol syndrome. If you can show me documentation that the US military intentionally targeted innocent civilians, then I might agree that some reparations are in order.

 

[jcsd]

What is good reason? When you go into one town and half your platoon is taken out by grenades thrown by some innocent-looking woman on a rice paddy, what would you do when you got to the next village? What documentation do you have that the US forces were ordered to kill indiscriminately?

You are trying to justify some pretty horrendous massacres, I only have to point you to the most famous example - Mai Lai and this was hardly an isolated incident.

I'm sick of ultar-nationalists who think that their country can do no wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

 

[russ_watters]

You are trying to justify some pretty horrendous massacres, I only have to point you to the most famous example - Mai Lai and this was hardly an isolated incident.

I'm sick of ultar-nationalists who think that their country can do no wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Mai Lai was a crime and those responsible should be (were?) punished. No one has said otherwise. But it is also a fact that the tactics of the enemy contributed to the incident. Had we only been fighting against uniformed soldiers, Mai Lai would not have happened.

No reason could be given to explain why the US sprayed such a poisonous chemical in Vietnam.Until that time, Dioxine was the most poisonous chemical that people could synthetize.
The American Government always criticize other countries developing chemical weapon, nuclear weapon, but they are the only country that used both of them and still develops nuclear weapons.

This has been said before, but Agent Orange was not a chemical weapon, it was a pesticide. That doesn't make it right to use it, but it is certainly also not right to mischaracterize it.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Your grandfather was probably not compensated by the Japanese government:

WHEREAS, while Japanese Government officials have expressed personal apologies and supported the payment of privately funded reparations to some victims, the Japanese Government has refused to fully acknowledge the crimes Imperial Japan committed during World War II and to provide reparations to its victims; and... (my emphasis)

http://www.expows.com/GA-HR142.htm

Agent Orange was a herbicide, actually. Still, not a weapon.

By the way, Vietnam refused to fight under the laws of the Geneva Convention. Fighting in uniform is one such requirement that was broken by countless civilians.

 

[fisipavia]

George W. owes us an apology then for Clinton lying to us about Monica Lewinsky.

Sorry, but those that actually committed the acts are the only ones that are guilty.

WHAT?!I don’t see the connection. I am sorry, but I really don’t care with whom the president sleeps. We are talking here about lifes that have been affected. And besides, if you read what I wrote in your quote you will notice that what I said was: “ When they accept to become presidents they certainly do not become guilty of the bad things done by other presidents”

And as for how long I think should be given the compensations… the thing is that I’m not saying that they have to paid Vietnam forever… but the reality is that although the war is over, the problem caused by orange agent is still a thing of the present… Babies are still born today with deformities because of orange agent. What I am trying to say is that it has been zero days for this people since the effects of orange agent. Ahhh…I’m sorry if I am being redundant but I want to make my point clear. I must also say that I do not think that giving money is the solution in all cases, they are times when nothing can be done. But the fact is that these people have health problems and in many cases are unable to study and work, so financial help will be very useful for them and their families. About the taxes… I don’t think that you will loose a fortune by the money that will be given to them…how much can it be? $10 per year (as much)? That would not affect you…but to them the sum of this money can really have a positive effect. And besides… you annually pay a lot more for a lot of wars in which US participate in the name of justice and protecting humans that are being oppressed by a number of regimes…. so it is not a responsibility, the moral and logical thing to do to help those who are directed affected by your actions first?

I want to make clear that I don’t see money reparations as the solution but it can help. This is how I see it…
If a person fall because of you… you should say I am sorry and help him get up. In this case the person is still in the ground. Obviously, if the effects of an action are things of the past, there is nothing that you can do to help. …ahhh! I don’t know if I am expressing myself correctly! And about the question of the apology…this one is very important to me. It’s never to late for an apology…accepting that you did something wrong internationally, for me this is very important…this gives credibility and respect to any country that believes in protecting the human rights. Otherwise you will be “predicando la moral en carzoncillos” = “talking about moral in underwear” (ja,ja…I don’t know if that proverb can be translated). A good example of this (no matter if I am atheistic, catholic or what) is when the pope officially apologized by all the persecutions done by the Catholic Church…. By he admitting that it was wrong he is letting us know that this is no longer the position of the church and that things like that should never happen again. An apology serve to give a closure as well to help us remember because one can forgive but should never forget since if one forgets it is most probable to repeat the same error.

 

[loseyourname]

I'm sick of ultar-nationalists who think that their country can do no wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Woa there, buddy. Who said the US could do no wrong? We're talking about whether or not civilians harmed by Agent Orange should be paid from US coffers. I'm sure the US did plenty of wrong. I will not, however, accept reparations as a reasonable request unless it can be shown that the military was ordered to intentionally harm innocent civilians.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Sorry fisi, I misread your post.

But does Vietnam owe certain citizens of our country reparations because it refused to fight under the laws of the Geneva Convention and for the way it treated our POWs?

 

[fisipavia]

Sorry fisi, I misread your post.

But does Vietnam owe certain citizens of our country reparations because it refused to fight under the laws of the Geneva Convention and for the way it treated our POWs?

You know what I have notice? and please don't take it wrong...but all of you are just making me question after question as you are waiting for me to contradict myself...I am just saying what I think and you can also say what you think... this question I would said that is actually a tricky one and answering it would involve our perceptions of how a war must be fighted... ?...By your personality I am thinking that you are in favor of the war in Iraq...if so that's ok, I am not here debating that...but the US didn't take in consideration the opinion of the ONU... you can think there is no wrong in doing so...so why do other country (in this case Vietnam) should take in consideration what have been said at the Geneva Convention. Another tricky aspect is the one with respect of the POWs. Afterall for some taking a life is the worse thing that can be do to a person and for other torture is worse...a war is a war and I am not saying which of these (death or torture) is worse...(personally I reject both)... but some people think, like looseyourname, that if you are willing to fight you should accept the consequences...I am just saying this because I want you to notice that the concepts of how opponent militars should be treated is a different story with its own complexity. But in this case we are talking of CIVILIANS
Don't attack me now by saying that it was right to not follow the laws of the Geneva convection...I am not saying that... what I want to say is that this would lead us into a debate that at the end will diverge from the original question (should the US make compensation to vietnam citizens affected by orange agent or at least make a public apology?) and we will end contradicting ourselves.
I am certainly not an expert in law and I am not presuming of that. Afterall, there are so many inmoral laws... I am just saying how I think a country should act.

 

[jcsd]

Mai Lai was a crime and those responsible should be (were?) punished. No one has said otherwise. But it is also a fact that the tactics of the enemy contributed to the incident. Had we only been fighting against uniformed soldiers, Mai Lai would not have happened. This has been said before, but Agent Orange was not a chemical weapon, it was a pesticide. That doesn't make it right to use it, but it is certainly also not right to mischaracterize it.

One of those responsible was given life imprisonment, but was released a few years after due to an outcry by the American public.

 

[jcsd]

Your grandfather was probably not compensated by the Japanese government:



http://www.expows.com/GA-HR142.htm

Agent Orange was a herbicide, actually. Still, not a weapon.

By the way, Vietnam refused to fight under the laws of the Geneva Convention. Fighting in uniform is one such requirement that was broken by countless civilians.

I am pretty sure it was the Japanese government (tho' it was actually not paid to him, as he had been dead for quite a few years), but as I say he was not a soldier but a civilian.

 

[JohnDubYa]

What if someone said that the US should only offer reparations to Vietnamese civilians if the Vietnamese government offers reparations to wronged US soldiers?

Essentially, my argument is that we should strive for some consistency in the way we deal with reparations. It is very convenient to ignore those atrocities committed against Americans and simply say that we should focus exclusively on our use of Agent Orange.

 

[Adam]

Your grandfather was probably not compensated by the Japanese government:

http://www.expows.com/GA-HR142.htm

Agent Orange was a herbicide, actually. Still, not a weapon.

Are you saying nobody has ever been killed with a pick or shovel?

By the way, Vietnam refused to fight under the laws of the Geneva Convention.

When invaded, why should they stick to the invader's rules?

Fighting in uniform is one such requirement that was broken by countless civilians.

Wrong.

 

[Adam]

Feel free to read: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm

 

[JohnDubYa]

Are you saying nobody has ever been killed with a pick or shovel?

Irrelevant. Agent Orange was not used as a weapon, but as a defoliant, in the same manner that bulldozers are used to clear a field of fire. Agent Orange was no more a weapon than the barbed wire strung about defenses.

Now, if the bulldozer is used to attack an enemy, then the bulldozer is a weapon in that instance. IMO, such was not the case here.

By the way, I found some info on the Web that, if true, may affect our judgment regarding the US responsibilities in this matter:

In 1961, President Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam asked the United States to conduct aerial herbicide spraying in his country. In August of that year, the South Vietnamese Air Force initiated herbicide operations with American help. The request by Diem launched a debate in the White House and the State and Defense Departments. On one side were those who viewed herbicides as an economical and efficient means of stripping the Viet Cong jungle of cover and food.

Others doubted the effectiveness of such a tactic and worried that such operations would both alienate friendly Vietnamese and expose the United States to charges of barbarism for waging a form of chemical warfare [<i>naturally, I disagree with this charge</i>].

Those who protest the use of Agent Orange as a chemical weapon (in their words) who also admire JFK have some serious explaining to do:

Both sides agreed upon the propaganda risks of the issue. In November 1961, President Kennedy approved the use of herbicides, but only as a limited experiment requiring South Vietnamese participation and the mission-by-mission approval of the United States Embassy, the Military Assistance Command Vietnam, and South Vietnam’s government.

Operation Ranch Hand, the designation for the program, began in January 1962. Gradually, limitations were relaxed; the spraying became more frequent and covered larger areas. The Air Force used C-47s, T-28s, B-26s, and C-123s equipped to spray herbicides for the defoliation missions. By the time Ranch Hand ended nine years later, some 18 million gallons of chemicals had been sprayed on an estimated 20 percent of South Vietnam’s jungles and 36 percent of its mangrove forests.

In other words, if Agent Orange is really a chemical weapon, and JFK authorized the use of this weapon, and this weapon killed thousands of Vietnamese, then could JFK not be considered a mass murderer?

Adam, what is your opinion of JFK if the information I provided here is true? Should JFK go down as a repugnant violator of crimes against humanity?

When invaded, why should they stick to the invader's rules?

We did not invade Vietnam, because Vietnam as a single country did not exist. We were invited to fight by the South Vietnam government.

And to answer your question, you should abide by the rules for the reason the rules were created in the first place.

My quote: Fighting in uniform is one such requirement that was broken by countless civilians.

Wrong.

Nope, true. The Geneva Convention requires combatants to display their armed forces association prominently at all times when engaged in combat. Fighting in civilian clothes with no such identifiers is prohibited.

EDIT: I was mistaken. The Geneva Convention requires that in order to be treated as a prisoner of war, "soldiers" must abide by the above requirement.

 

[hiphys]

I want to tell you a story.
Nam was a three-year old boy. His family traveled to the sea.He could not swim.So he drank a lot of sea water.Sea seems to be too dangerous for him.When he came back home, he tried his best to take all the fishes out of water because he thought that fishes couldn’t live in water like him.As the result, all of the fishes died.
In my opinion, American has the same thinking as Nam. The American thought that they brought freedom to Vietnam . They sent troops, B52, tanks … to Vietnam to “help” Vietnameses.Actually, at that time, Americans were not welcomed. Americans used their ”American Democracy standard” to judge the world. Every country has self-determination. Others have to respect it.
That’s the reason why American troops was attacked everywhere in Vietnam and American troops became the Conquerer in Vietnamese eyes.
I have read many evidences which show that US government and American Chemical Companies did know the terrible effect of Agent Orange but they all ignored it. So, in this case, Agent Orange is not only herbicide but also a mass-killer weapon, actually.

 

[hiphys]

Woa there, buddy. Who said the US could do no wrong? We're talking about whether or not civilians harmed by Agent Orange should be paid from US coffers. I'm sure the US did plenty of wrong. I will not, however, accept reparations as a reasonable request unless it can be shown that the military was ordered to intentionally harm innocent civilians.

Agent Orange has killed not only Vietnamse soldiers but also their children. Vietnamese children aren't soldiers but they are still affected by Agent Orange.
Do you think there is a law that soldiers ' children have to wear uniform ?

 

[Prometheus]

Agent Orange was not used as a weapon, but as a defoliant, in the same manner that bulldozers are used to clear a field of fire. Agent Orange was no more a weapon than the barbed wire strung about defenses.

If an arson incident causes the death of someone inside, would you contend that there was no murder because fire was not used as a weapon? Don't you think that there should be any repsonsibility at all for the extreme deadliness of Agent Orange?

In other words, if Agent Orange is really a chemical weapon, and JFK authorized the use of this weapon, and this weapon killed thousands of Vietnamese, then could JFK not be considered a mass murderer?

Are you saying that since Bush authorized the use of weapons that, however inadvertantly, killed thousands of innocent Iraqis, he shold be considered a mass murderer?

We did not invade Vietnam, because Vietnam as a single country did not exist. We were invited to fight by the South Vietnam government.

Can you provide evidence to support this? The Republic of Vietnam, also known as South Vietnam, was created by the partition of Vietnam in 1954 after the defeat of France at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. By this time, US aid to the French had reached $1.4 billion, which constituted almost 80% of France's budget for the war. I do not consider your statement valid.

And to answer your question, you should abide by the rules for the reason the rules were created in the first place.

Please elaborate. The U.S. invades a tiny country, with little justification other than fear of that country, and you claim that they should follow rules that they were not party to the creation of. By the way, I think that the U.S. did not become bound by the Geneva Convention until the signing was ratified by Congress in 1977.

 

[kat]

None of this tells me why I should put my name on a petition for a case that is already in court and proceeding in the system. Petitions aren't allowed as evidence of guilt or responsibility. The only purpose at this point of a petition would be to harvest names and emails to spam for?

 

[JohnDubYa]

If an arson incident causes the death of someone inside, would you contend that there was no murder because fire was not used as a weapon? Don't you think that there should be any repsonsibility at all for the extreme deadliness of Agent Orange?

Okay, here goes: AGENT ORANGE WAS NOT USED FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF KILLING SOMEONE.

Are you saying that since Bush authorized the use of weapons that, however inadvertantly, killed thousands of innocent Iraqis, he shold be considered a mass murderer?

I'm not saying anything. I asked a question. Do you want to answer the question? What exactly is your opinion of JFK as a human being?

Can you provide evidence to support this? The Republic of Vietnam, also known as South Vietnam, was created by the partition of Vietnam in 1954 after the defeat of France at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. By this time, US aid to the French had reached $1.4 billion, which constituted almost 80% of France's budget for the war. I do not consider your statement valid.

What does all this have to do with an "invasion"?

Please elaborate. The U.S. invades a tiny country, with little justification other than fear of that country, and you claim that they should follow rules that they were not party to the creation of.

That's right, they should follow the rules for the same reason the rules were put in place.

Prometheus, are you going to try and disagree with every point I make? This is getting tiresome.

 

[JohnDubYa]

hiphys, read the word "intentionally" in loseyourname's post. And if you really think freedom is not necessarily a good thing, say so. That is what you are suggesting.

Actually, at that time, Americans were not welcomed.

They were welcomed by some, not by others. Your post is therefore disingenous.

And it's FISH, not fishes.

 

[Prometheus]

They were welcomed by some, not by others. Your post is therefore disingenous.

You did not even consider his post. Your post is therefore disingenuous.

And it's FISH, not fishes.

Do you own a dictionary? Open it.

 

[hiphys]

I know that my English is bad.
It's really difficult for me to express all of my ideas in English.
As you know, many Agent Orange Victims can't express their sorrow.
I just want to do sth to help them.I'm a student, I don't have so much money to help them, and I think I can send some messages to friends all over the world.I think that's the best way I can do to help them.
You may sign the petition or not, it's your determination.
The Court may disagree with us and the Agent Orange Victims may not get any reparations from American Chemical companies.
We know that money can reduce the difficulties in their daily lives but money can't cure their sorrow. So money is not everthing.
A sorrow will be reduced if it's shared by other warm hearts.
So, please do sth if you feel it's necessary.
On behalf of Agent Orange victims and Vietnamese people, I would like to thank those who sign the petition and support us.
I want to repeat that we only accuse American chemical companies, not American people.

 

[member 5645]

hiphys, your goals are admirable, even if I do disagree with you :)

 

[hiphys]

To Kat,
I know that your email address will be kept in secret if you want.
There are 3 secret options that you can choose when you sign this petition :
1. Your email will be kept in secret, just used to confirm your signature.
2. Your email will be kept in secret , just used to confirm your signature and kept in local system.
3. Your email will be shown to everyone.