Justice for Victims of Agent Orange

[hiphys]

if you really think freedom is not necessarily a good thing, say so. That is what you are suggesting.

Let ‘s see what US government did to bring freedom to Vietnam .

They created and supported a brutal puppet government in Vietnam. And this government broke the Geneve Accords by refusing a democratic election to reuninfy country. Ngo Dinh Diem was assigned to be the president of the South Vietnam by the US government. So, the Vietnamese even didn’t have the right to vote.

Is it the freedom that the US government wanted to bring to Vietnam ?

During the war , the Diem ‘s government transported the guillotine to all the provinces in South Vietnam to decapitate the suspected VCs. They developed a “strategic hamlet” program to remove peasants from their traditional villages, often at gunpoint, and resettled them in new hamlets fortified .The villagers were forbidden to leave the hamlets.

Is it the freedom that the US government wanted to bring to Vietnam ?

Johnson ordered ships to the North Vietnam’s territorial boundaries , and on August 4 both the Maddox and the USS Turner Joy reported that North Vietnamese patrol boats had fired on them. Johnson then ordered the first air strikes against North Vietnamese territory and went on television to seek approval from the U.S. public. (Subsequent congressional investigations would conclude that the August 4 attack almost certainly had never occurred.) The U.S. Congress overwhelmingly passed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which effectively handed over war-making powers to Johnson until such time as "peace and security" had returned to Vietnam.

Is it the way that US government wanted to bring peace to Vietnam ?

“We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.
We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.”
Kerry, John F.

Is it the freedom that the US government wanted to bring to Vietnam ?

In November 1969 reports began to be published that soldiers under the command of Lieutenant William Calley had rounded up hundreds of Vietnamese civilians in the hamlet of My Lai and then raped, tortured, and murdered them.

? ? !

“We got more trouble for killing a water-buffalo than we did for killing people. That was something I could never adjust to.”
Lee Childers ,U.S. soldier.

“The American war in Vietnam destroyed three ancient civilizations. They had survived through millennia everything history can do, which is always plenty, but they could not survive us, who understood nothing about them, nor valued them, and do not grieve for them.”

Martha Gellhorn (1908 - 1998) , U.S. journalist and author.

Please don’t use the word “freedom” in this case !

 

[hiphys]

John McCain won't ever have normal use of his arms due to the number of times they were torn out of their sockets when he was a POW.

This Vietnamese POW won't ever have normal use of his arms ,too.He even couldn't stand up !
Ya, CON DAO is not a prison, but the hell.
This picture was shown in Vietnam war museum.
Most of the pictures here were taken by US and international photographers.

See the attachment below.

 

[hiphys]

Admiral James Stockdale.

"Stockdale wound up in Hoa Lo Prison - the infamous "Hanoi Hilton" -- where he spent the next seven years under unimaginably brutal conditions. He was physically tortured no fewer than 15 times. Techniques included beatings, whippings, and near-asphyxiation with ropes. Mental torture was incessant. He was kept in solitary confinement, in total darkness, for 4 years, chained in heavy, abrasive leg irons for 2 years, malnourished due to starvation diet and denied medical care, and deprived of letters from home in violation of the Geneva Convention."

Ya, it seems that the US soldiers did it more influently !
See the picture below.

 

[hiphys]

American soldiers tied up persons to their tank and dragged them on roads to death.
See the picture below.

 

[hiphys]

American soldiers cut Vietnamese soldiers ' head.
I think that these US men wouldn't be devil if they had refused to fight this nonsense war.
see the picture below.

 

[hiphys]

Now, I decide to stop posting these shocking pics althought I have much.
We talk about the past but we should look forward the future.

It's easy to find reasons for a war. The US government gave many reasons to avocade their nonsense war but we now know that many of them are liars.
Please think much before supporting the war.

In World War II. Vietnam stood by America to fight against Japanese.Viet Minh helped many OSS agents and American pilots.

In 1945, when Vietnam declared independence to the world, President Ho Chi Minh sent letter to make ralationship with USA. We wanted to make friend with your country.Althought all OSS agents in Vietnam persuaded their President to make relationship with VN, but US president refused. Instead of making friends, he chose war.We missed too many chances to be friends.

Here some pics that we should see.
President HO Chi Minh, General Vo Nguyen Giap with OSS agents.
Posters appealed Vietnamese to help American Pilot.
Young boy Viet Duc is playing football with his "three" legs.
Present and future is in our hand.
Peace in our hand.

 

[JohnDubYa]

It's easy to find reasons for a war.

North Vietnam certainly found its reasons.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Your pics show the brutalities of war (well, the one that shows up clearly), which the Geneva Convention is supposed to outlaw. Now who stated from the outset that they would not abide by the Geneva Convention?

If you are going to insinuate that the Viet Cong were peaceful people who never committed barbarity, feel free. I am not going to believe you.

 

[russ_watters]

It's easy to find reasons for a war. The US government gave many reasons to avocade their nonsense war but we now know that many of them are liars.

By the same token, much of what your government has told you about the war is (apparently) lies. Your country remains a dictatorship because of the US's failure to prevent it. I won't concede to the validity of the captions to any of those pictures without some real context.

Looking around for info on Con Dao, I don't see anyone saying it was an American prison - it was originally a French prison that was administered by South Vietnam during the war.

 

[Prometheus]

North Vietnam certainly found its reasons.

According to this logic, the north had no right to go to war with the south in the American Civil War.

Your pics show the brutalities of war (well, the one that shows up clearly), which the Geneva Convention is supposed to outlaw. Now who stated from the outset that they would not abide by the Geneva Convention?

Everybody knows this one. The United States expressly did not sign the 4th Geneva Convention in order to be able to act as it wanted in Vietnam. Surely you knew this.

If you are going to insinuate that the Viet Cong were peaceful people who never committed barbarity, feel free. I am not going to believe you.

The United States went half way around the world to bully a tiny country that did not want to be a colony of the French. When the Vietnamese dared resist the great United States, the U.S. dropped more tonnage of bombs on Vietnam than were dropped during WWII, and attempted to destroy their environment for a generation using such as Agent Orange.

You, however, claim that you are not going to believe that the Viet Cong were peaceful, since after all they put up such resistance to the United States. Do you think that the Viet Cong were more barbaric than the United States? If so, why?

 

[Prometheus]

By the same token, much of what your government has told you about the war is (apparently) lies. Your country remains a dictatorship because of the US's failure to prevent it.

You go there! Tell him!

Your country remains a dictatorship because of the US's failure to make you a French colony. French colonialism is the greatest form of liberty that you deserve.

Don't forget to tell him that the United States loved the Vietnamese people, and only had their best interests in mind.

 

[JohnDubYa]

According to this logic, the north had no right to go to war with the south in the American Civil War.

Huh? hiphysi lamented that there are always reasons to go to war. I said that North Vietnam certainly found its reasons. Are you suggesting that it didn't?

The United States expressly did not sign the 4th Geneva Convention in order to be able to act as it wanted in Vietnam. Surely you knew this.

Are you talking about the 4th Geneva Convention, or the 1977 protocols? (Or are you talking about the Geneva Accord?)

* Convention I: for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field.
* Convention II: for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea.
* Convention III: relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
* Convention IV: relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War.

These four Conventions have been signed by 190 states. The Additional Protocols of 1977 (AP I and II) have been signed by a majority of states, but by substantially fewer than the 1949 Conventions (161 and 156 states respectively of 191 UN member countries).However, they are still considered to have customary, if not moral, authority by many. The purpose of the two Additional Protocols was to clarify and strengthen the protection afforded to individuals, POWs and civilians in armed conflict.

Both the United States and Iraq are parties to the Geneva Conventions. The United States ratified the Conventions on 2 August 1955 and Iraq ascended on 14 February 1956. However, both countries are not signatories to the Additional Protocols of 1977."

http://www.ciss.ca/Comment_GulfWarPOWs.htm

...and attempted to destroy their environment for a generation using such as Agent Orange.

And who ordered the dumping of such horrific chemicals on such peace loving people. Surely he must be a monster, don't you agree? Who was that man, Prometheus?

 

[Prometheus]

And who ordered the dumping of such horrific chemicals on such peace loving people.

So, we agree that the dumping of agent orange was a horrific act by the United States. Do we also agree that the entire war was a horrific act?

Are you saying that you agree with me that the United States, and of course those in power who caused it to occur, commited atrocities in Vietnam and that the entire war was an American atrocity. Of course, those who were in power and promoted the war are most at fault.

 

[JohnDubYa]

You're not too swift at detecting sarcasm, are you Prometheus?

By the way, I figured you would jump all over my understanding of the Geneva Conventions. What gives?

 

[hiphys]

By the same token, much of what your government has told you about the war is (apparently) lies. Your country remains a dictatorship because of the US's failure to prevent it. I won't concede to the validity of the captions to any of those pictures without some real context.

Oh, russ_watters ,you are sitting in America and say that our country remains dictatorship.
It’s really funny ! Do you think so ? Please come to Vietnam to see what is happening here.
You said : “Your country remains a dictatorship because of the US's failure to prevent it.”
Please read what I had post before again to see what the US did to prevent it , ok ?
Let ‘s think about this : the Vietnamese dared to resist Chinese reigns , the French colonialists and the great United States , could the Vietnamese Communist Party still exist until now if they were dictatorship ? You shouldn’t discount us like that !
We all know that America is the super power of the world , but it doesn’t mean that America has the right to judge the world .Kenedy, Nixon , Bush… are American presidents, but not the world’s presidents.We have never voted for them.
Each country in the world, no matter how big it is, has its self-determination.Others should respect it.

Russ_watter, I think you are an American patriot, you love America, but in a wrong way.Many Americans love their country in other way.
I think that you know many of them :

Martin Luther King, Jr., said: “I opposed the war in Vietnam because I love America. I speak out against it, not in anger, but with anxiety and sorrow in my heart...This war is a blasphemy against all that America stands for.”

“In every other great war of this century, we have had the support of what is generally accepted as the decent opinion of mankind. We do not have that today.”
Eugene J. McCarthy (1916 - )
U.S. politician and writer, senator from Minnesota.
Referring to the Vietnam War (1959-1975).

“I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories [of] times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads … cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.”
…………………………
…………………………
“In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.”

April 22, 1971, read before before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations
Kerry, John F. (1943- ), Democratic member of the United States Senate from Massachusetts

Russ_watter, you need some real context to concede to the validity of the captions to any of the pictures I gave , now you got it ! Or you still think that your presidential candidate told a lie ?
By the way, all of these quotations are from Microsoft Encarta 2004.Check it if you want.
Please don’t live a lie !

 

[hiphys]

Your pics show the brutalities of war (well, the one that shows up clearly), which the Geneva Convention is supposed to outlaw. Now who stated from the outset that they would not abide by the Geneva Convention?

If you are going to insinuate that the Viet Cong were peaceful people who never committed barbarity, feel free. I am not going to believe you.

What should we do when American troops killed our cititzens ? Smile peacefully and come to shake their hand ?
Feel free, I'm afraid that you are going to believe nothing, even yourself.

 

[JohnDubYa]

hiphys, if you published an article that was critical of the Communist Party, would the government allow it? What would happen to you?

And how does freedom of religion work in Vietnam? Does your government show respect for the Unified Buddhist Church? What has been happening to the senior leaders of this church?

By the way, hiphys, the real hero of the Left in this country are John F. Kennedy and LBJ. Do you have any quotes about the Vietnam War from these two? (Not a dig at you.)

One more thing, we need some information about the Geneva Convention. I asked Prometheus, but he seems to be quiet lately. Can you help him?

 

[kat]

hiphys...even Kerry has admitted that his statement that you quoted above was "over the top"...and of the 150 honest vet's he's taken statements from...many have been proven to be outright frauds, never even in vietnam and the rest were never actually substantiated. Maybe that's one quote you would be better off leaving out next time.

 

[hiphys]

Let’s talk about Lyndon Baines Johnson, 36th president of the United States

I suppose that Johnson was a hero in the World War II because of his bravery.( receiving a silver star for gallantry from General Douglas MacArthur.)

I suppose that Johnson was a hero in the War on Poverty in your country.

I suppose that Johnson was a hero in the War against racial discrimination in your country.

But :

“Johnson's stumbling leadership in foreign relations, especially in Vietnam, overshadowed his effective leadership in domestic affairs.”

By Robert Dallek, professor of history, Boston university, author of Lone Star Rising : Lyndon Johnson and his time, author of History Of Presidential Leadership (Microsoft Encarta 2004.)


“Both Johnson and his successor, Richard Milhous Nixon, used the power of the presidency to extend the Vietnam War and their control over affairs of state. Johnson gained sweeping authority to commit U.S. forces to defend South Vietnam after presenting inaccurate information to Congress about North Vietnamese bombing in the Gulf of Tonkin. Nixon, who pledged to bring peace in his 1968 presidential campaign, soon expanded the Vietnam War into neighboring Cambodia and Laos. At home he instituted wage and price controls. Nixon was the first president to establish an Office of Communications to control the flow of information in and out of the White House.”

By Stephen J. Wayne, professor of government at Georgetown University in Washington,
Understanding the Modern American Presidency, Microsoft Encarta 2004.


By 1968 antiwar sentiment affected electoral politics. Challenging Johnson for the Democratic presidential nomination, Senator Eugene McCarthy of Minnesota campaigned against the war. McCarthy roused fervent support among the young, and Vietnam swiftly became the major issue of the 1968 presidential race. Reconsidering his earlier policies, Johnson limited bombing in Southeast Asia and initiated peace talks with Hanoi and the NLF. After he was challenged by McCarthy in the New Hampshire primary, Johnson decided not to seek reelection and withdrew from the race. The president became a political casualty of the Vietnam War.
Contributed By:
Bill Turque , B.A ,freelance writer
Paul E. Johnson, B.A, M.A, Ph.D, professor of history, University of South Carolina.
Nancy Woloch , B.A, M.A, Ph.D, Adjunct Associate Professor of history ,Barnard College, Columbia University.
Microsoft Encatar 2004.

And
“Repeated predictions of victory from U.S. generals and Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara had proved wrong, and as the U.S. commitment grew, so did opposition to the war and to Johnson personally. By 1967 Johnson began avoiding public appearances because of demonstrations and threats to his life.”
Microsoft Encatar 2004.
What happened to your real hero after his decision to throw your country into an unjust war ?
I suppose that Vietnam War is the darkest stage of his life.
Or you are trying to rewrite the US History ?
What do you think about these :

“It takes twenty years or more of peace to make a man, it takes only twenty seconds of war to destroy him.”
Baudouin I (1930 - 1993)
Belgian monarch.

Lyndon Johnson came into office seeking a Great Society in America and found instead an ugly little war that consumed him.

Tom Wicker (1926 - )
U.S. writer.
Referring to the Vietnam War.

 

[hiphys]

"Kennedy had begun to consider the possibility of withdrawal from Vietnam and had even ordered the removal of 1,000 advisers shortly before he was assassinated, but Johnson increased the number of U.S. advisers to 27,000 by mid-1964. Even though intelligence reports clearly stated that most of the support for the NLF came from the south, Johnson, like his predecessors, continued to insist that North Vietnam was orchestrating the southern rebellion."

I suppose that Kenedy might not have thrown his country into this war if there hadn't been the assassination.
In Microsoft Encarta 2004 ,I found this :

Kennedy’s most significant foreign policy blunder came in his 1961 decision to send thousands of U.S. soldiers to Vietnam, sending the country along a path toward military defeat overseas and political turmoil at home.

© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

[hiphys]

JohnDubya said :
"As for torture of American prisoners of war, just ask Sen. John McCain and Admiral James Stockdale.

"Stockdale wound up in Hoa Lo Prison - the infamous "Hanoi Hilton" -- where he spent the next seven years under unimaginably brutal conditions. He was physically tortured no fewer than 15 times. Techniques included beatings, whippings, and near-asphyxiation with ropes. Mental torture was incessant. He was kept in solitary confinement, in total darkness, for 4 years, chained in heavy, abrasive leg irons for 2 years, malnourished due to starvation diet and denied medical care, and deprived of letters from home in violation of the Geneva Convention."

Things are getting amusing !
You are going to accuse Senator John Kerry (perhaps,including John McCain ,because he supported Kerry in this problem) ,Martin Luther King,Senator Fulbright, Senator Eugene J. McCarthy , many American professors of History of liars.
You don't believe the pics taken by US reporters.
So Why do you think that I can believe in Admiral James Stockdale ,an unknown name to us?
Americans are famous for their logical thinking.So are you American ?
Do you still want to attach POW's torture in Agent Orange problem, JohnDubYa ?

 

[hiphys]

Awardwinning photo taken by Kyochi Sawada in Vietnam 1966.
The identity plates of the veichle have been censored.
Kyochi Sawada won the Pulitzer Prize in 1966 for his combat photography of the war in Vietnam.
It seems not the only one.
I give this just because of your demanding, russ_watters.

 

[JohnDubYa]

hiphys, you have avoided answering my questions. Why is that? Since you seem to have forgotten:

If you published an article that was critical of the Communist Party, would the government allow it? What would happen to you?

And how does freedom of religion work in Vietnam? Does your government show respect for the Unified Buddhist Church? What has been happening to the senior leaders of this church?

 

[Prometheus]

hiphys, you have avoided answering my questions. Why is that? Since you seem to have forgotten:

If you published an article that was critical of the Communist Party, would the government allow it? What would happen to you?

And how does freedom of religion work in Vietnam? Does your government show respect for the Unified Buddhist Church? What has been happening to the senior leaders of this church?

hiphys, dubya can play this game all month. He does not care about your point of view at all, but will pretend that he is waiting for your response to his irrelevant questions before he addresses your points. Remember, he loves the Vietnamese people and only cares about their freedom and best interests. If only Vietnam had become a French colony, they would have attained the freedom that they richly deserve.

 

[JohnDubYa]

hiphys can handle his own questions.

Speaking of avoiding questions, where is your treatise on the Geneva Convention?

 

[hiphys]

hiphys, you have avoided answering my questions. Why is that? Since you seem to have forgotten:

If you published an article that was critical of the Communist Party, would the government allow it? What would happen to you?

And how does freedom of religion work in Vietnam? Does your government show respect for the Unified Buddhist Church? What has been happening to the senior leaders of this church?

Calm down, JohnDubya, hastiness is not good for our political dicussion.
I will answer all of your questions but not at once because of 2 reasons:
1. I always try to search for evidences to prove what I post.
2. My English is not very good, so it takes me much time.

 

[hiphys]

Ok, let’s talk about the state of religion in Vietnam.

. Vietnam is a multi-religion country comprising 6 major religions, namely Buddhism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Muslim, Cao Dai, Hoa Hao with more than 20 millions followers accounting for one third of the population.
Freedom of belief and religion is respected and protected by the Constitution of Socialist Republic of Vietnam :

"In civil relations, the parties shall be equal and shall not invoke differences in ethnicity, gender, social status, economic situation, belief, religion, education and occupation as reasons to treat each other unequally"
(Article 8, the 1992 Constitution, the Civil Code of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam adopted on October 28th, 1995 ).

"Freedom of marriage between persons belonging to different ethnicities/nationalities and/or religions and between religious and non-religious individual shall be respected and protected by law"
(Article 35 , the 1992 Constitution, the Civil Code of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam adopted on October 28th, 1995)

"an individual has the right to work. Every person has the right to employment and is free to choose a job or occupation without being discriminated against on the grounds of his/her gender, ethnicity, social status, belief or religion"
(Article 45, the 1992 Constitution, the Civil Code of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam adopted on October 28th, 1995).

The right to freedom of belief and religion is also enshrined in Articles 81, 124 and 205a of the Penal Code, in Art. 4 of the Criminal Procedures Code and in Articles 9 and 16 of the Law on Education.

On April 19, 1999 the Government issued a new Decree (No. 26/1999/ND/CP) on religious activities to replace the previous one issued in March 1991. This Decree signifies the comprehensive policy of the State of Vietnam on freedom of belief and religions in the new context to protect the citizens' rights. At the same time, it prohibits all acts of violation against the right to freedom of belief and religion, as well as acts of abusing religions to conduct illegal activities against the State, causing public disorder and damaging national unity.

As part of the programs of exchanges between Vietnam's religious organizations and the outside world, many individuals and representatives of international religious organizations have visited Vietnam, such as the International Congregations, Bishop Councils of France, USA; Buddhism Organizations from Japan, ABCP, and representatives of foreign Protestant organizations ...

In Vietnam, any religious organization whose objective and charter, are in conformity with the Constitution and law shall be permitted to operate and protected by the law. Followers of such religions that have no institutionalised basis in the form of religious organizations are also free to practice their beliefs at recognised places of worship and at home (Decree 26/1999/ND-CP). Presently, the State has officially recognised the status of the Patronage Council and the Executive Council of Vietnam Buddhist Sangha; the Bishop Council of Vietnam Catholic Congregation, 9 Cao Dai Sacerdotal Councils, the Representative Board of Hoa Hao Buddhism, Federation of Vietnam Protestantism Associations (Northern area), the Executive Board of the Confederation of Vietnam Protestant Associations (Southern area) the Representative Board of the Islam Community of Ho Chi Minh City.

Religious organizations are entitled to open training school for the religious dignitaries and priests.

There are many Budist training school at advanced and intermediate levels with an increase from 22 in 1993 to 34 at present; about 6700 Buddhist monks and nuns have been trained in these institutions. Before 1975, there was only one Buddhist University, now there have been 3 Buddhism Institutes. So far, 235 monks and nuns sent abroad for training since 1992 and since 1996 there have been 167 persons. Catholics schools comprise of many grand seminaries to train Catholic priests. One grand seminary was opened in 1987, then three in 1988, one in 1991, one in 1994; up to now there are 6 schools altogether. 1,591 people have been studying in these seminaries, among whom 654 have ordained Catholic priests.

The Vatican can appoint Catholic priests after consulting with the State of Vietnam and receiving the latter's agreement. There are totally 37 bishops at present, with 5 appointed in 1999, 2 in 2000 and 3 in 2001.

Other religions also have training classes for dignitaries, in accordance with their forms of training.

The State creates favourable conditions for religious dignitaries and followers to study abroad, to conduct workshops and exchanges on religious affairs with other countries.

From 1993 to November 2001, there have been 1,457 religious dignitaries, priests and followers conducting studies abroad (long-term, short-term courses, Buddhism:664, Catholic:1,185, Protestantism: 33, Muslim:180), attending conferences, or conducting exchange tours on religions affairs in foreign countries. Some of these people have successfully obtained high degrees (MA and Doctorate) in their studies.

As you see, the freedom of religious belief was guaranteed by the Constitution of Viet Nam. My grandmother is a Buddhism follower, she has taught me a lot things in Buddhism prayer-book.The story “the boy and fishes” that I told you is one of them.

However, the legal guarantee did not extend to the use of religious platforms for political ends or to create social instability. Historically, there had been tension between Roman Catholicism, imported by European missionaries, and Buddhism, formerly the religion of the majority. Tension had also been created during the struggle for independence. At present, certain Buddhist groups were endeavouring with foreign support to create disturbances at home and abroad. There were limits to the tolerance that could be extended to such misuse of religious ends.
That seems easy for American to understand.
Will you tolerate the terrorists who attacked American in the name of Islam , JohnDubYa ?
Or are you supporting al-Qaeda ?
Or you believe that Bin Laden devotes himself for Islam ?
Think twice before answering these questions !

 

[hiphys]

hiphys, dubya can play this game all month. He does not care about your point of view at all, but will pretend that he is waiting for your response to his irrelevant questions before he addresses your points. Remember, he loves the Vietnamese people and only cares about their freedom and best interests. If only Vietnam had become a French colony, they would have attained the freedom that they richly deserve.

Ya, I know this, Prometheus.
I just think that the simpler thinking they are, the more patient we should be.
And I can see the agreement (althought they haven't admitted it officially) in their posting in some problems
I feel proud of my country and my people.So I'll try my best to show it to the world.
Thanks, Prometheus.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Let me get this straight. You don't know if your own country imprisons those that speak out against the country? You have to look it up??

And what about the Unified Buddhist Church, hiphys? I notice you never mentioned them. Does your government treat members of the Unified Buddhist Church respectfully?

 

[JohnDubYa]

Hey Geneva Convention Man! Where is our treatise on the Geneva Convention? Or did you have it all wrong?

 

[Prometheus]

Speaking of avoiding questions,

Yes. So you see what I mean. Avoiding questions while harping on your irrelevancies is the best skill that you have been showing us. My, but you are good. If only you could respond to questions as well. Too difficult for you, I guess.

 

[JohnDubYa]

I will answer any question you have.

But first, where is that treatise on the Geneva Convention? What are your opinions of JFK?

Or, how about this question: Were you wrong when you stated that the US did not ratify the 4th Geneva Convention until after the Vietnam War?

 

[hiphys]

I wonder how old you are, JohnDubYa. Politics seems too difficult for you to understand.
I think that what I posted above is clear enough for you to answer your own questions.
Anyway, I ‘ll try to explain it into details.
Ya, I have never heard about the so called “Unified Buddhist Church” . Many Vietnameses haven’t ,either.
I asked my grandmother , a Buddhism follower, but she said she has never heard about it.
I was confused ,but now, I know the reason why.
Oh dear, See what I have found :
The so called “Unified Buddhist Church” was created in France by a monk who had left Vietnam for a few decades !
It is contributed by a minority group who had supported the South Vietnam puppet government (which doesn’t exist now )and are now trying to break the national harmony that we are trying to consolidate after the war !

So, in your opinion, are they considered to be the representative for the whole Vietnamese Buddhism followers ?

Is Al-qaeda considered to be the representative for the whole Islamites in the world ?

Is Bin Laden considered to be the senior leader of Islam ?

Does your government treat members of Al-qaeda respectfully ? :yuck:

If you think so…say so .
I wonder if I’m talking to an extreme Islamite !
Take it easy, JohnDubYa !

Do you see the ridiculousness in the name “Unified Buddhist Church” ? It sounds funny !
Unify what ?

Since 1975, in the spirit of unity, the leaders of religious organizations in Vietnam have made great efforts to strengthen the unity within each religion, among all religions and between religions and the State.
Buddhism, a religion with two thousand years of development in Vietnam, convened a national congress in 1981 to unite all Buddhist organizations in the country.
The Vietnam Buddhist Sangha came into being in the Conference for Vietnamese Buddhist Unification (November 4-7, 1981) in Hanoi. During this conference, nine Buddhist sects and organisations voluntarily merged. The motivation for the conference resulted from four campaigns for Vietnam Buddhist Unification in our country in 1951, 1960, 1964 and 1980.
Being well aware of the harmony, peace and social equality by promoted through Buddha's teaching in service of the nation, the homeland and well-being is the stance of Vietnam Buddhist Sangha. The Vietnam Buddhist Sangha is the only organisation that represents Buddhist monks, nuns and lay people in Vietnamese foreign and domestic relations. With the spirit of co-operation, understanding and respect, the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha is longing for the exchange on issues related to the situation of religious and belief practices in Vietnam including the one of Vietnam Buddhism.

So, in your opinion, should they change the name “Unified Buddhist Church” to “Politically Self-Separating Buddhist Church” for easy-recognition ? :laughing: :laughing:

My friends from abroad (including from USA ) are surprised to find that most of churches and pagodas are renovated or newly built, a large number of people practice religions and these practitioners live in peace in communes and villages.
There is no place for discrimination and dispute.

As I said before, the legal guarantee did not extend to the use of religious platforms for political ends or to create social instability. At present, certain Buddhist groups such as so called “Unified Buddhist Church” were endeavouring with foreign support to create disturbances at home and abroad. There were limits to the tolerance that could be extended to such misuse of religious ends.
In the past, some people did split our country into 2 region : the North and the South.
And now, some of them still intent to use religion to split our country once more.

After such a long war, Vietnamese now yearn for peace, harmony to build up our country from the extreme damage of the war .
Perhaps, you refuse to give us a hand to repair the damage, but please stop obstructing us in our development by supporting these so called “monks”.
It may be harmful to our efforts to strengthen our two country relationship.
Is it clear enough for you to understand ?

 

[kat]

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:2:./temp/~c108RCAM1b::

Whereas Buddhism has a 2,000-year tradition in Vietnam and the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam (UBCV) is an heir to this tradition;

Whereas the Government of Vietnam in 1981 declared the UBCV, one of the largest religious denominations in the country, illegal, confiscated its temples, and persecuted its clergy for refusing to join the state-sponsored Buddhist organizations;

Whereas the Government of Vietnam has often imprisoned UBCV clergy and subjected them to other forms of persecution; the Patriarch of the UBCV, the 85-year-old Most Venerable Thich Huyen Quang, has been detained and restrained for more than 2 decades in isolated areas of Vietnam;

Whereas the Vietnamese Government has held the Most Venerable Thich Quang Do, the Executive President of the UBCV and his deputy, the Venerable Thich Tue Sy, in various forms of detention since 1977;

Whereas the Very Venerable Thich Thien Minh, Supreme Counselor of the UBCV, was tortured to death in a reeducation camp in 1978;

Whereas many other leading UBCV figures, including Thich Thien Hanh, Thich Phuoc An, Thich Dong Tho, Thich Vien Dinh, Thich Thai Hoa, Thich Nguyen Ly, Thich Thanh Huyen, Thich Khong Tanh, Thich Phuoc Vien, Thich Hai Tang, Thich Dong Tho, Thich Nguyen Vuong, Thich Chi Mau, Thich Chi Thang, and Thich Thanh Quang have been detained, harassed, and under tight surveillance;

Whereas several members of the UBCV have fled to Cambodia to escape religious repression and harassment;

Whereas Pham Van Tuong, formerly known as Thich Tri Luc, disappeared from Cambodia in July 2002 after being given refugee status by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), and has since been discovered to be in custody in Vietnam, where he is reportedly charged with the vague crime of `fleeing abroad or defecting overseas with the intent to oppose the people's administration,' which carries a possible sentence of life imprisonment;

Whereas Vietnam has acceded to international covenants and treaties that prohibit the forced repatriation of UNHCR-recognized refugees;

Whereas Vietnam has acceded to international covenants and treaties that protect the right to faith, belief, and practice;

Whereas Vietnam's constitution protects the right of religious belief;

Whereas in a show of religious tolerance, the Vietnamese Government in April 2003 allowed the Most Venerable Thich Huyen Quang, the Fourth Supreme Patriarch of the UBCV, to receive urgent medical care in Hanoi;

Whereas at that time, Vietnamese Prime Minister Phan Van Khai met with Venerable Thich Huyen Quang and assured him that his and Venerable Thich Quang Do's detention were mistakes by local officials and that he hoped they would extend Buddhist forgiveness toward past actions of the government;

Whereas in June 2003, the Vietnamese Government ended the detention order against Venerable Thich Quang Do, the Executive President of the UBCV;

Whereas in September and October 2003, the UBCV held a meeting in Nguyen Thieu Pagoda in Binh Dinh province to discuss church affairs, choose a new leadership which had been vacant for a decade, and verify Vietnamese Prime Minister Phan Van Khai's promise of a new era of understanding and respect;

Whereas Vietnamese authorities attempted to disrupt these gatherings by restricting the travel of monks from other provinces and then intimidating those attending;

Whereas on October 8, 2003, Vietnamese authorities initiated a tense standoff following the meeting, where police stopped a vehicle carrying the UBCV's new leadership and subsequently detained the eleven passengers;

Whereas Venerables Thich Huyen Quang and Thich Quang Do were taken to their respective pagodas where they have been effectively isolated and detained; four senior monks, the Venerable Thich Tue Sy, Thich Thanh Huyen, Thich Nguyen Ly, and the UBCV Supreme Patriarch's personal assistant, Venerable Thich Dong Tho, were immediately sentenced to 24 months of administrative detainment by written orders of the Ho Chi Minh City People's Committee, and three others, the Venerables Thich Thien Hanh, Thich Thai Hoa, and Thich Nguyen Vuong to 24 months administrative detainment by `oral' orders from various local authorities, in protest of which the Venerable Thich Thien Hanh initiated a hunger strike on October 19, 2003;

Whereas according to reports by the United States State Department, the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, and the European Union, the Socialist Republic of Vietnam systematically limits the right of religious organizations to choose their own clergy;

Whereas according to these same reports, the Socialist Republic of Vietnam uses house arrest and long prison sentences to punish individuals for practicing their faith, as evidenced also by the jail sentences handed down to Father Nguyen Van Ly, his three relatives, Montagnard and Hmong Protestants, Cao Dai, and Hoa Hao Buddhists;

Whereas during the 107th Congress the House of Representatives passed H.R. 2833, the Vietnam Human Rights Act, on September 6, 2001, which noted the persecutions faced by various members of the UBCV over the past 25 years; and

Whereas because of systematic, egregious, and ongoing abuses of religious freedom, the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom recommended that the President of the United States designate Vietnam as a `country of particular concern' under the provisions of the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998: Now, therefore, be it


Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) congratulates the new leadership of the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam;

(2) urges the Government of Vietnam to respect the right of all independent religious organizations to meet, worship, operate, and practice their faith in accordance with Vietnam's own constitution and international covenants to which Vietnam is a signatory;

(3) urges the Government of Vietnam to restore freedom to all Vietnamese citizens imprisoned or under house arrest for practicing their faith or for advocating freedom of religion, especially the Most Venerable Thich Huyen Quang and the Very Venerable Thich Quang Do;

(4) is committed to promoting religious freedom in Vietnam, and, in furtherance of this goal, urges the implementation of the recommendations of the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom; and

(5) urges the United States Embassy in Vietnam to closely monitor cases of abuse of religious belief and practice, routinely visit detained clergy members, especially those in need of medical care, and report to the Congress on specific measures taken to protect and promote religious freedom in Vietnam.

 

[hiphys]

Vietnam Buddhist Sangha rejects US resolution



Hanoi, November 25, 2003

To: Mr Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States of America

On behalf of the President of the Executive Council of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha, I warmly greet the Mr Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States of America.

Dear Mr Speaker,

On November 19, 2003 the House of the Representatives of the United States of America passed the resolution H. Res. 427 with five points sponsored by some members of the House of Representatives, which seriously hurts our organisation. The Vietnam Buddhist Sangha is the only organisation that represents Buddhist monks, nuns and lay people in Vietnamese foreign and domestic relations as well as our honorable, human dignity and legitimate rights. That is the very reason why we are raising our voice to protect the legitimate interests of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha.

The Vietnam Buddhist Sangha came into being in the Conference for Vietnamese Buddhist Unification (November 4-7, 1981) in Hanoi. During this conference, nine Buddhist sects and organisations including the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam merged. The motivation for the conference resulted from four campaigns for Vietnam Buddhist Unification in our country in 1951, 1960, 1964 and 1980.

In the opening speech for the 1981 Conference, the Most Venarable Thich Tri Thu - the President of the Dharma Propagation Council of the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam and the head of the Board of Vietnamese Buddhist Unification - confirmed: "It is the first time during the 2000 year history of Vietnam Buddhism, we have organised a conference that gathers deputies from the Buddhist Sangha, branches and organisations from all over the country: Mahayana, Theravada, Buddhist Beggars Organisation, Buddhist Khmer Organisation, monks and nuns both old and young, in this impressive and splendid hall with a strong determination for achieving Vietnam Buddhist Unification."

Bring into full play the national tradition of the 2000 year history of Vietnam Buddhism, over the past 22 years since its foundation, the Buddhist monks, nuns and lay people have truly been living in solidarity and harmony and recorded many significant Buddhist achievements beneficial to our religion and our life, winning the hearts and confidence of Vietnamese Buddhist monks, nuns, lay people and all the Vietnamese people as well as foreigners. Therefore, the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha has become a crucial factor in our international and national good relations.

However, in our Sangha, there remain some people who are not satisfied with the activities and organisation of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha. But in fact, their views and opinions are not for the common interest of Vietnam Buddhism, but are rather concentrated on their personal and political interests. As a result, their activities have negatively affected the nation and religious solidarity, and violated the law of Vietnam. Their practices are absolutely contrary to the teaching of Buddha.

Therefore, the monks, nuns and lay people of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha strongly condemns the resolution H. Res. 427 passed by the House of the Representatives of the United States of America on recognising the "origination" and the "leaders" of the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam, which came into existence in 1981 as a result of voluntary participation in the Conference for the Vietnamese Buddhist Unification in 1981 which resulted in the foundation of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha. The approval of the Resolution is a grave error creating a dangerous precedent for some ill-willed people who want to exploit the past to undermine Vietnamese national solidarity and the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha.

As the president of the Executive Council of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha, I request the Speaker of the House of the Representatives of the United States of America to act in his capacity prevent these and similar activities of some of the House members who extort the situation of the Vietnamese religious practices to intervene in the religious internal affairs of Vietnam in general and the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha in particular.

As a religious organisation, the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha always observes the progress of the relations between the Socialist Republic of Vietnam and other nations including the United States of America. The relations between Vietnam and America has seen positive results, meeting the expectations of the two countries on the basis of "closing the past and looking to the future," as stated by the former President Mr Bill Clinton in his visit to Vietnam in 2000.

Being well aware of the harmony, peace and social equality by promoted through Buddha's teaching in service of the nation, the homeland and well-being is the stance of Vietnam Buddhist Sangha. The Vietnam Buddhist Sangha is the only organisation that represents Buddhist monks, nuns and lay people in Vietnamese foreign and domestic relations. With the spirit of co-operation, understanding and respect, the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha is longing for the exchange on issues related to the situation of religious and belief practices in Vietnam including the one of Vietnam Buddhism.

Once again, on behalf of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha, I want to send best regards to the Speaker of the House of Representative of the United States of America. I wish that, with your capacity and position, Mr Speaker you will take more positive steps to promote friendly relations between our two nations rather than undermine our mutual interests due to the negative activities of some ill-will members.


Yours sincerely,


President of the Executive Council
of the Vietnam Buddhist Sangha
The Most Venerable Thich Tri Tinh