Landau's derivation of the Langangian expression

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Landau's derivation of the Lagrangian expression, specifically focusing on the expansion of the action in terms of variations in the generalized coordinates and velocities. Participants explore the mathematical formulation and implications of Taylor expansion in this context, as well as the derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to expand the Lagrangian L in powers of dq and dq', suggesting that Taylor expansion typically applies to q and q' rather than their variations.
  • Another participant proposes treating q and q' as independent variables and suggests using Taylor expansion for functions of two variables.
  • A subsequent reply clarifies that the focus is on expanding in terms of the variations dq and dq', rather than the original variables.
  • Further contributions outline a method to derive the Euler-Lagrange equations using a one-parameter family of trial functions, emphasizing the boundary conditions and the role of variations in the action.
  • Participants discuss the implications of differentiating the action with respect to the parameter and how this relates to the variations of the generalized coordinates.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriate method for expanding the Lagrangian and the implications of treating variables as independent. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to handle the expansion in terms of dq and dq' and the subsequent derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equations.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the independence of variables and the specific forms of the Taylor expansion used. The discussion does not resolve the mathematical steps involved in the expansion process.

lewis198
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I'm going over the Landau's Mechanics, and can't get over two hurdles.

The first is the following(I'm not good with latex here, so please bear with me):

Landau asserts that the action S' between t1 and t2 of a Lagrangian L such that L is a function of (q+dq) and (q'+dq') minus the action S between t1 and t2 of a Lagrangian L such that L is a function of q and q', the gives a difference, that, expanded in powers of dq and dq' equals zero. Also, dq(t1)=dq(t2)=0.

OK, for this to be the case, S' must equal S' plus some residue R. R must then be formed of integrals of terms that are multiples of dq and dq' so that when integrated (definite) give 0.

Landau therefore expands S'-S 'in powers of' dq ad dq'. Here's my problem: How can you expand L in powers of dq and dq'? Talyor expansion allows for expansion in terms of q and q', and if I substitute q for q+dq I do in fact get the terms in dq and dq', but I also have annoying terms like 2q*dq and the like- I can see that q and q^2 terms will vanish due to S expanded.

So the question still stands: How can you expand L in powers of dq and dq'? is the above way satisfactory?
 
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Consider q and q' as two independent variables.

Let think that you have function
f(x,y) and use Talyor expansion for this function with two independent variables x and y.
 
Last edited:
I understand that, but here we have the variables 'x'=(q+dq) and 'y'=(q'+dq') and we want an expansion for dq and dq'.
 
f(x+dx,y+dy)-f(x,y)=(df/dx)dx+(df/dy)dy
where dx=dq and dy=dq'.
 
One way to derive the Euler-Lagrange equations is the following. Assume the extremal curve is \bar{q}(t). We define a one-parameter family of trial functions:

<br /> q(t; \alpha) = \bar{q}(t) + \alpha \, \eta(t)<br />

where \eta(t) are arbitrary smooth functions which satisfy the boundary conditions:

<br /> \eta(t_{1}) = \eta(t_{2}) = 0<br />

so that the trial functions automatically satistfy the boundary conditions:

<br /> q(t_{1}; \alpha) = \bar{q}(t_{1}) = q_{1}<br />

<br /> q(t_{2}; \alpha) = \bar{q}(t_{2}) = q_{2}<br />

It is obvious from our construction that among all the trial functions, the extermum is achieved for \alpha = 0, because q(t; 0) = \bar{q}(t) then. But, if we insert the trial function in the expression for the action:

<br /> F(\alpha) = S[q(t; \alpha)] = \int_{t_{1}}^{t_{2}}{L(t, \bar{q} + \alpha \, \eta, \dot{\bar{q}} + \alpha \, \dot{\bar{q}} + \eta \, \dot{\eta}) dt}<br />

it becomes an explicit function of the parameter \alpha. Using the necessary condition of extermum, we must have:

<br /> F&#039;(0) = 0<br />

If we try to calculate the derivative of F(\alpha) with respect to \alpha, we will need to use the rules of finding parametric derivatives:

<br /> F&#039;(0) = \int_{t_{1}}^{t_{2}}{\left\{ \frac{\partial L}{\partial q}(t, \bar{q}, \dot{\bar{q}}) \, \eta(t) + \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}}(t, \bar{q}, \dot{\bar{q}}) \, \dot{\eta}(t) \right\} \, dt}<br />

If we try to express the \eta(t) in terms of the trial functions and the extremal curve, we get:

<br /> \eta(t) = q(t; \alpha = 1) - \bar{q}(t) \equiv \delta q(t)<br />

Notice that the variation of a function of time is again a function of time. We can differentiate it:

<br /> \frac{d}{d t} \delta q(t) = \dot{\eta}(t) = \dot{q}(t; \alpha = 1) - \dot{\bar{q}}(t) = \delta \frac{dq(t)}{d t}<br />

This is the famous rule of exchanging variation and differentiation with respect to the argument of the function. If we also define:

<br /> F&#039;(0) \approx S[q(t; \alpha = 1)] - S[\bar{q}(t)] \equiv \delta S[\bar{q}(t)]<br />

Then, the above derivative may be rewritten as:

<br /> \delta S[q(t)] = \int_{t_{0}}^{t_{1}}{\left[\frac{\partial L}{\partial q}(t, q, \dot{q}) \, \delta q(t) + \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}}(t, q, \dot{q}) \, \delta \dot{q}(t)\right] \, dt}<br />
 

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