Lubrication in toroidal engines

[chhitiz]

how do toroidal engines get lubricated?

 

[Danger]

Welcome to PF, Chhitiz.
I've never heard the term 'toroidal engine'. Are you perhaps referring to a rotary, such as Mazda uses?

 

[RonL]

Welcome to PF, Chhitiz.
I've never heard the term 'toroidal engine'. Are you perhaps referring to a rotary, such as Mazda uses?

This might be a place to start,



http://www.roundengine.com/

 

[Danger]

That's quite an intriguing device. Thanks for the link, Ron.
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the operation of it, and don't have time to delve too deeply into it right now, but I'll continue to check it out later.

 

[S_Happens]

Maybe it gets lubricated exactly like it runs. By hopes, dreams, and expected results (ok, maybe compressed air in a few cases). Maybe I've missed out, but I haven't seen anything about any toroidal engine actually doing any combustion. Like I said, I may have just missed it, but if you have any information dealing with functional setups, please post it.

Sorry to detract from your post, it is just annoying to see another toroidal engine that (seemingly) has nothing but expectations and a CAD drawing.

 

[RonL]

Maybe it gets lubricated exactly like it runs. By hopes, dreams, and expected results (ok, maybe compressed air in a few cases). Maybe I've missed out, but I haven't seen anything about any toroidal engine actually doing any combustion. Like I said, I may have just missed it, but if you have any information dealing with functional setups, please post it.

Sorry to detract from your post, it is just annoying to see another toroidal engine that (seemingly) has nothing but expectations and a CAD drawing.

If you look in, design, and then, research, you can see a prototype and there are six tabs to click on that gives a brief explanation of the basic operation.
Lubrication would seem to be akin to a two cycle type, but that is just my guess.

The flat plate compression disc, looks to be a weak point for high compression applications, but as I stated to Danger, this is a place to start becoming aware of toroidal type design.

A design in my mind involves free piston technology, where compression takes place between the pistons rotating inside a large flywheel, inertial energy of the pistons is transferred into motion of the massive flywheel. To try and describe it would result in more infraction points I'm afraid.

 

[Danger]

Lubrication would seem to be akin to a two cycle type, but that is just my guess.

You mean a pre-mix? That would make sense. What I wonder about most is how the timing disk is sealed.

 

[RonL]

You mean a pre-mix? That would make sense. What I wonder about most is how the timing disk is sealed.

Good point, and it seems that as pressure builds against the timing disk, wear on the backside would be high.
Also lubrication and sealing around all the ports looks to be a chore.
I see that large main disk and alternator designs flash into my head.

Overall I think it looks good, I'll search a little and see if I can find anything new.



P.S. Danger, they are in Canada, Isn't that your neck of the woods ?

 

[Danger]

P.S. Danger, they are in Canada, Isn't that your neck of the woods ?

Bloody hell! I never saw that part of the link until I just went back after that comment. They're within spitting distance of me. Maybe I should just drop in one of these days and ask to see a working model in operation. That could clear up a lot of questions. I'm going to be very busy for the next wee while, though. Tomorrow is W's 59th birthday, and the last one that I'll be able to celebrate with her now that she's moving up north at the end of the month. Also, I'm having extreme renovations done to my house, and there are a few other things on my plate. If they'll let me in, though, when I have the opportunity, I'll check it out. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[chhitiz]

A design in my mind involves free piston technology, where compression takes place between the pistons rotating inside a large flywheel, inertial energy of the pistons is transferred into motion of the massive flywheel. To try and describe it would result in more infraction points I'm afraid.

you mean like free pistons inside the flywheel and not outside?
and please i still don't get how that thing is getting lubricated.

 

[chhitiz]

A design in my mind involves free piston technology, where compression takes place between the pistons rotating inside a large flywheel, inertial energy of the pistons is transferred into motion of the massive flywheel. To try and describe it would result in more infraction points I'm afraid.

you mean like free pistons inside the flywheel and not outside?
and please i still don't get how that thing is getting lubricated.

 

[RonL]

you mean like free pistons inside the flywheel and not outside?
and please i still don't get how that thing is getting lubricated.

I'm not sure what you need for an answer on lubrication, but there are many possible options, any of which will depend on how the design moves and what parts interact, and what speed, pressures and temperatures are involved.

Oil mixed with liquid fuel, or misting in vapor fuel, would be my guess for most designs.

Yes to the question about the pistons inside the flywheel.

 

[chhitiz]

I'm not sure what you need for an answer on lubrication, but there are many possible options, any of which will depend on how the design moves and what parts interact, and what speed, pressures and temperatures are involved.

Oil mixed with liquid fuel, or misting in vapor fuel, would be my guess for most designs.

Yes to the question about the pistons inside the flywheel.

how does the cylinder wall get surfaced with lubricants? and how does the lubricant get in and out of the system? it's closed,right, not like a reciprocating engine, which is open at one end.

 

[Danger]

It isn't closed any more than a reciprocating engine, Chhitiz. Those circles on the bottom surface are intake and exhaust holes that appear to be covered and uncovered by the pistons which act as valves.
What Ron is talking about regarding lubrication is something along the line of either a 2-stroke gas engine in which oil is mixed with the gas in the tank, or a pneumatic tool such as an impact wrench which has oil injected into the airflow.

 

[minger]

Just seen this thread and told me coworker about it. Nearly simultaneously we both said, "How do they seal the disk?" That seems to be weak point, in an otherwise cool looking design.

Unfortunately I'm not sure I see any benefit in using it, nor do they show a working prototype. Either way, I'd be interested in seeing it actually run.

 

[chhitiz]

It isn't closed any more than a reciprocating engine, Chhitiz. Those circles on the bottom surface are intake and exhaust holes that appear to be covered and uncovered by the pistons which act as valves.
What Ron is talking about regarding lubrication is something along the line of either a 2-stroke gas engine in which oil is mixed with the gas in the tank, or a pneumatic tool such as an impact wrench which has oil injected into the airflow.

then how does the oil get out? with the exhaust? is it as effective as in a reciprocating engine?

 

[Danger]

I can't speak to the efficiency; there are too many variables. The oil is indeed expelled with the exhaust if it is introduced in the possible ways that Ron mentioned. Think of how a chainsaw or a small dirtbike operates. The exhaust is blue because the oil is burned with the fuel, after having done its lubrication duty.

 

[RonL]

Some of the silicone based lubricants can fill the micro voids of the metal surfaces and reside in these pores for a long time, some metals can be impregnated with graphite or other compounds and require almost no lubrication, all is based on design.

Go back in time and you find that some machines and engines had live people that mopped on, or squirted oil on moving parts, based on a time cycle. One of my dad's first jobs was an oiler on a large dragline in the 1930's.

If I had a solid reason to build a toroidal engine any time soon, I would likely get hung up on which of the many possible ways to lubricate it. Now to get creative why not consider using air to keep the metals or whatever from making contact. (a little hint, think of the air hockey tables, with a little more pressure.) Getting air to free pistons gets a little trickey.

I think the surface of mechanical engineering has only been scratched a little.

 

[chhitiz]

If I had a solid reason to build a toroidal engine any time soon, I would likely get hung up on which of the many possible ways to lubricate it. Now to get creative why not consider using air to keep the metals or whatever from making contact. (a little hint, think of the air hockey tables, with a little more pressure.) Getting air to free pistons gets a little trickey.

I think the surface of mechanical engineering has only been scratched a little.

you said you had a design in mind. why aren't you building one?

 

[Danger]

you said you had a design in mind. why aren't you building one?

Hi is, but he doesn't want to release any details until he's assured of world domination.

 

[RonL]

Hi is, but he doesn't want to release any details until he's assured of world domination.

If I were King...? Thanks Danger, one more thought to add to my list.

chhitiz, that is a fair question, the list of answers is a very long one, I'll give a few.

1. I'm at the age when, the afternoon nap is the most important event of the day.
2. I have so many other things to do, that are mandatory in my day to day life.
3. The design can have so many options, the end results is not clear.

4. The major reason, in spite of all that I know and don't know, a project like this will require a very serious amount of...Time, Money, and Professional Engineering Talent.

Learning when NOT to do something is a quality I wish I had learned long ago, I would have more cash and a lot less unfinished projects laying a round.

Ron

 

[chhitiz]

If I were King...? Thanks Danger, one more thought to add to my list.

chhitiz, that is a fair question, the list of answers is a very long one, I'll give a few.

1. I'm at the age when, the afternoon nap is the most important event of the day.
2. I have so many other things to do, that are mandatory in my day to day life.
3. The design can have so many options, the end results is not clear.

4. The major reason, in spite of all that I know and don't know, a project like this will require a very serious amount of...Time, Money, and Professional Engineering Talent.

Learning when NOT to do something is a quality I wish I had learned long ago, I would have more cash and a lot less unfinished projects laying a round.

Ron

really, how old are you? I'm 21, screwing my life in 3^rdyear B.E. compscience. i too have design of a toroidal engine in my mind, although i was stuck at lubrication as well. oil mixed with fuel seemed the only way in and out, though it seemed too far fetched. hence the thread. your idea of 'air hockey' doesn't seem very feasible. nor does it look like the right time or place for me to attempt any such venture.

 

[RonL]

really, how old are you? I'm 21, screwing my life in 3^rdyear B.E. compscience. i too have design of a toroidal engine in my mind, although i was stuck at lubrication as well. oil mixed with fuel seemed the only way in and out, though it seemed too far fetched. hence the thread. your idea of 'air hockey' doesn't seem very feasible. nor does it look like the right time or place for me to attempt any such venture.

I'm approaching 67, my two older grandchildren are 26, and 25, then five more 16 and younger.

In my later years, the penalty of not going beyond high school is really taking a toll on things I would like to do. Since being a part of PF the lesson that seems most clear to me, is how important it is to say things in a way that others can understand, based on what they have been taught and trained by the books.

The air hockey is a good example, the principle thought was how little air pressure it takes to make an almost frictionless movement between the surface and puck.
Separating a set of pistons from the toroidal wall might work by the forcing of an air layer between them.
How to have an action/reaction between the pistons which are all revolving in a full 360 degree circle, is a most challenging thought process. Transforming what is clear in the mind, into a set of plans with all calculations worked out, goes beyond my abilities.

I'm glad you gave a little information about yourself and would encourage you to put a little in your profile section, it is helpful when someone answers questions and makes comments. It at least helps me feel a bit closer to people even when a world apart.

Thanks,

Ron

 

[Danger]

I'm approaching 67, my two older grandchildren are 26, and 25, then five more 16 and younger.

Cool! Suddenly, I don't feel quite so ancient.
I'm having a bit of trouble with the air-hockey concept as well, though. Wouldn't the air injection have to be powerful enough to overcome the compression within the chamber? Perhaps magnetic repulsion, as in a cyclotron, would be more appropriate. Either way, though, it seems that the energy input to perform the piston confinement would seriously diminish, if not eliminate, that derived from the operation of the engine. I might be missing something here.

 

[chhitiz]

I'm glad you gave a little information about yourself and would encourage you to put a little in your profile section, it is helpful when someone answers questions and makes comments. It at least helps me feel a bit closer to people even when a world apart.

Thanks,

Ron

ok i will do that. and yes i completely agree with danger on the air hockey idea.

 

[RonL]

As I stated, the design options are many, too much for a forum.
My idea involves steam and electric, no combustion of fuel, the lubrication would be carried by the steam and reused over and over, the only contamination would be normal wear of the materials.
The pistons spin as they move through the toroidal tunnel, producing the electrical needs. Yes magnetism can play a part in keeping the pistons from contacting the wall.

The stop, lock and release, actions that allow steam cycles to be applied, I would think can be compared to the mechanical speed of a machine gun, or automatic rifle firing, discharging and loading rounds of amunition, I think Danger might see this comparison in mechanical speed.

As before, I can't afford the expense of an engineering team that would be required to lay all this out. An extreme amount of detail for sure.

Back to your original question, lubrication can be expendable or reuseable, the method you choose will have to take into account, what are the qualities of the lubricant, and what conditions can it be exposed to without breaking down.

A vague answer, but it's a very broad field.

Ron

 

[chhitiz]

The pistons spin as they move through the toroidal tunnel, producing the electrical needs. Yes magnetism can play a part in keeping the pistons from contacting the wall...



As before, I can't afford the expense of an engineering team that would be required to lay all this out. An extreme amount of detail for sure.


Ron

wow. you are the coolest sexagenarian i have EVER met. although for the pistons to be spinning i imagine they would have to more like disks. guessing that the steam keeps them spinning(and gives lubrication)

and come on man you can still do whatever you waana do- ok now i think i am sounding like
the dumb kid who doesn't know much. so i'll stop.

 

[Danger]

Ron, I apparently misunderstood your reference to air-bearing piston support. Given the context, I thought that you were referring to the toroidal engine in the existing configuration rather than what you had planned for your own design. I don't believe that it would be practical in that situation, since there is combustion and high-pressure involved, but it could be fine for your application.

 

[Kenneth Mann]

Very interesting string. I don't really have much to add here but this. Over the years I have always been intrigued with the various engine designs, some good and some a bit strange. I usually keep these references, however. One of my few omissions was a toroidial engine that was described in one of the popular magazines about thirty-ish years ago. I seem to have lost it and can't find hide nor hair of it. If anyone has a clue, I would appreciate the info.

KM

P.S. I would also like reference (from about the same time span) to a X-configured scotch yoke engine from the Pontiac people.

 

[Kenneth Mann]

BTW - - you might consider pressure lubrication similar to that of our standard reciprocating engines. The oil could be forced through internal passages, up from the central shaft(s), out to the pistons and out through openings between the rings, onto the walls. The main problem is the fact that, whichever way you do it, the oil and the air would be mixed and ejected in the exhaust. Also, you should arrange to avoid ejecting the oil out of the pistons directly into the ports. That,s what I would probably try.

KM

 

[Kenneth Mann]

I'm approaching 67, my two older grandchildren are 26, and 25, then five more 16 and younger.

I've got you by a couple.

KM

 

[RonL]

I've got you by a couple.

KM

Years, or grandkids ?

Along the thoughts of torodial and free piston designs, one can look at "bounce engines".
IIRC a design for diesel fuel and an electric generator control, has been funded for reasearch at Sandia, or some other lab. I'll see if I can find it and post a link.

Ron

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/advanced_combustion/ace_08_vanblarigan.pdf

 

[Danger]

Over the years I have always been intrigued with the various engine designs, some good and some a bit strange. I usually keep these references, however.

Do you have anything about the 'K-cycle' design? I love that sucker, but I haven't seen anything about it in over 30 years. It worked on a swashplate principle, with opposing pistons. It was about 350 ci, and put out close to 700 hp on regular aspiration and regular gasoline. It looked like a couple of galvanized trashcans welded together at about a 30° angle. Since I fist saw it on a CTV report, I had the impression that it was a Canuck design, but have since learned that it was developed in the US.

 

[nucleus]

Since I fist saw it on a CTV report, I had the impression that it was a Canuck design, but have since learned that it was developed in the US.

Somebody done tell you wrong! It was definitely designed in Manitoba, mostly at the University of Manitoba. I know because I had the pleasure of seeing it running there!

The engine and cycle was invented by Dr. Haaken Kritiansen, who was an aeronautical engineer at an airline in Winnipeg before going to the University as a professor. The K-cycle is a new cycle, it was I believe the only new cycle invented in the last century.
Here is the US patent for it:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...XT&s1=4157079.PN.&OS=PN/4157079&RS=PN/4157079
There is another patent with better drawings etc.
http://members.shaw.ca/zenonp/Misc/KCycle.pdf
Another forum here:
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-142394.html

 

[Danger]

Thank you, Nucleus! I was sure for so many years that it was developed in Manitoba, but the only reference to it that I could find on-line said that it was a Yank thing. You have restored my faith in my limited memory, and screw the net references.
That was one nasty little piece of equipment. Do you have any idea what became of it?
And by the bye, might I assume that you are a fellow Canuck?

 

[Kenneth Mann]

Years, or grandkids ?

Years - - -

 

[Kenneth Mann]

Here is another relatively recent toroidal engine design. Note, that the pistons in this one don't continue in the same direction. The main attraction of these is the promise of a highte power density, but they also have drawbacks that must be overcome.

KM

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/11/oscillating-piston-engine-that-thing-got-a-toroid-in-it/"

 

[Kenneth Mann]

Just to show the fact that these engines are not new, here are a couple of posts that go back a bit. I suspect that one of these is one that I ran across in literature years ago.

KM


http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/toroidalIC/toroidalIC.htm"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing-piston_engine"

 

[chhitiz]

Here is another relatively recent toroidal engine design. Note, that the pistons in this one don't continue in the same direction. The main attraction of these is the promise of a highte power density, but they also have drawbacks that must be overcome.

KM

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/11/oscillating-piston-engine-that-thing-got-a-toroid-in-it/"

yeah i have seen that one. even the MYT one. don't seem to be generating much interest of investors

 

[Kenneth Mann]

yeah i have seen that one. even the MYT one. don't seem to be generating much interest of investors

Actually, investor interest is not a good measure. I have noticed that ideas conceived in the US don't get good investor interest as do European ideas. Europeans seem to be better at sponsoring ideas. A perfect example seems to be the three basic practical ICE engine thermodynamic cycle inventions, the Brayton Cycle (invented first), the Otto Cycle and the Diesel Cycle. All three were done as piston configurations. Otto and Diesel Cycles got a lot of development, mainly in Germany, and the Brayton Cycle configuration was largely ignored.

American investors just don't support their inventors well. I think that a lot of that has to do with the fact that our laws don,t support our inventors well.

KM

 

[mgb_phys]

I was always thought these were clever - and they worked.
They ran big locomotives for 40years.

 

[Danger]

First, the thing didn't move at all. Now, it's moving too fast. Anyhow, if I'm interpreting it correctly, the intake port on the left bank is the only one that gets opened. You have seriously confused me.

 

[Kenneth Mann]

http://godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message707632/pg1" might be of interest. I don't know about the operation of this engine, but the narrator mentions that it uses its bio-diesel fuel for lubrication.

KM

 

[RonL]

http://godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message707632/pg1" might be of interest. I don't know about the operation of this engine, but the narrator mentions that it uses its bio-diesel fuel for lubrication.

KM

This is a good example of the many types of design work going on, also it shows why so many people have tried and failed, getting their inventions developed into real life applications,(5 years and 4 million dollars).

I do have a little resistance to his statement about the size and power of the engine that would power a car.

Overall it is a very positive show of what might be ahead in the world of design.
I also have a strong belief that electric energy used to produce steam can work in a design much like this, the need for combustion of a fuel should only be in much larger power applications.

Ron

 

[Kenneth Mann]

Do you have anything about the 'K-cycle' design? I love that sucker, but I haven't seen anything about it in over 30 years. It worked on a swashplate principle, with opposing pistons. It was about 350 ci, and put out close to 700 hp on regular aspiration and regular gasoline. It looked like a couple of galvanized trashcans welded together at about a 30° angle. Since I fist saw it on a CTV report, I had the impression that it was a Canuck design, but have since learned that it was developed in the US.

I tried a couple years ago to send you an article reference on the strange engine configuration I think you are referencing. It appeared in one of the "Mechanics" magazines in the seventies. BTW, you need to clean out your inbox. It's full! (Under "Private Messages".)

KM

 

[Danger]

I know that the box is full, Ken. I'm still in the midst of moving. I'm not willing to delete any of my PM's, any more than I would discard a letter or a birthday card. I will try again, but so far my attempts to 'save as txt' haven't been successful. You can contact me through the PF e-mail forwarding service which will send you to my personal e-mail account. I will then forward you my real e-mail address. In the meantime, I have you on my 'friends' list, so you can communicate with me through that avenue as long as it doesn't involve anything that you don't want others to see. My internet just got re-connected this afternoon, and the first thing that I did was accept your friendship request. I'm usually very wary of such requests, but you have proven yourself worthy. (That probably doesn't sound right... what I mean is that your posts have lead me to trust you. You show an integrity that is essential to the continuation, and propagation, of PF.) And beside all of that, you just come off as being really cool.

 

[hhn2002]

This is a good example of the many types of design work going on, also it shows why so many people have tried and failed, getting their inventions developed into real life applications,(5 years and 4 million dollars).

I do have a little resistance to his statement about the size and power of the engine that would power a car.

Overall it is a very positive show of what might be ahead in the world of design.
I also have a strong belief that electric energy used to produce steam can work in a design much like this, the need for combustion of a fuel should only be in much larger power applications.

Ron

your engine it appears is a steam-electric engine configuration. or in effect an modern steam engine relying on electricity to heat water to create steam instead of direct fire.
the problem i see with that is because it relies on a thermodynamic stage heat loss(energy loss) is a concern. no matter the configuration or design of the pistons or cylinders energy will be lost through heat dissipation unless i can be considerably insulated without over heating the engine itself to cause rapid wear. also considering that its only power resource is electricity there are already electric motors that can do the job without involving thermodynamics as a crucial stage. i don't mean to sound like i am trying to pull you down, so sorry if I've offended you but i just wanted to state my oberservations.

what the world craves for is an engine that is revolutionary in its efficiency or utilizes a fuel source that is abundant and less pollutant. a completely electrically driven car requires heavy batteries as its main fuel storage unit and until battery technology is greatly improved electrically driven cars are not in favor. also batteries have a limited limited life span(which are expensive to replace), slow recharge times, and limited ranges.

 

[Kenneth Mann]

I know that the box is full, Ken. I'm still in the midst of moving. I'm not willing to delete any of my PM's, any more than I would discard a letter or a birthday card. I will try again, but so far my attempts to 'save as txt' haven't been successful. You can contact me through the PF e-mail forwarding service which will send you to my personal e-mail account. I will then forward you my real e-mail address. In the meantime, I have you on my 'friends' list, so you can communicate with me through that avenue as long as it doesn't involve anything that you don't want others to see. My internet just got re-connected this afternoon, and the first thing that I did was accept your friendship request. I'm usually very wary of such requests, but you have proven yourself worthy. (That probably doesn't sound right... what I mean is that your posts have lead me to trust you. You show an integrity that is essential to the continuation, and propagation, of PF.) And beside all of that, you just come off as being really cool.

Unfortunately, I don't understand the inner workings of PF to use most of its features. I need help from someone in understanding the "email forwarding service" or communication through the "friends" list. I could use help from someone on these (and other features). BTW, my mailbox is not full.

KM

 

[Danger]

BTW, my mailbox is not full.

That, alas, is irrelevant. Through some peculiarity of the system, I can't send a PM when my own box is full. I also seem to have forgotten how to do the e-mail transfer, but I'll look into it later.
For the 'friends' contact, go to 'My PF' at the left of the top menu bar. Click on that to open your control panel, then on 'Contacts & Friends'. That'll open a window on the right with all of your friends shown. Click on my name (or whoever you want to access), and it will bring up a new screen in my section. There's a text box where you can enter your message and send it just like a PM.

 

[hhn2002]

That, alas, is irrelevant. Through some peculiarity of the system, I can't send a PM when my own box is full.

^most likely because sent PMs are by default saved too.