News Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

[Greg Bernhardt]

Very little information right now but we know it was a Boeing 777 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

(CNN) -- A Malaysia Airlines flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has crashed in eastern Ukraine, Russian news agency Interfax reported Thursday.
Malaysia Airlines confirmed that it lost contact with MH17, and the flight's last known position was over Ukrainian airspace, the airline said on Twitter.
The jet is a Boeing 777, according to Interfax.
The plane reportedly went down near the border between Russia and Ukraine.

AP: Passenger plane shot down over Ukraine
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/ap-passenger-plane-shot-ukraine/

The Associated Press is reporting that an adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister says a Malaysian passenger plane carrying 295 people has been shot down over a town in the east of the country.

The wire service reports the adviser Anton Geraschenko posted the information on his Facebook page. It said that the plane was hit Thursday by a missile fired from a Buk launcher.

 

[Czcibor]

Looks like Russian terrorists armed by Putin. (but of course would have to be confirmed)

 

[jtbell]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856

A defence expert has told the BBC that shooting down a plane at 10,000m (9.7 miles) would have required a long- range surface-to-air missile - possibly guided by radar.

That suggests it is unlikely it could have been downed by a portable air defence missile, or Manpad, which has a much shorter range.

The only other possibility is for an aircraft at that height to be downed by a fighter carrying air-to-air missiles.

The US will have access to satellite imagery that should be able to identify ultra-violet plumes if a long-range surface-to-air missile was fired.

(Someone made a typo or messed up a conversion factor... 10,000 m is more like 6.2 miles.)

 

[Filip Larsen]

AV Herald tracks this accident too on http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d&opt=0 (the site seems currently heavily loaded)

 

[nsaspook]

Damn! This is getting crazy.

Suspected launcher type:
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...trol-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/

Missile engagement of a Ukrainian military transport aircraft a few days ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1lpc3VQgqY&feature
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28299334

 

[jtbell]

According to the BBC's live text feed at http://www.bbc.com/news/world-28354787 :

19:00 [2:00 PM EDT]: A tweet (in Russian) from a key Twitter account used by pro-Russian separatists, in which they claim to have captured a Buk surface-to-air missile system, has now been deleted, BBC Monitoring observes. Ukrainians say the Malaysian plane could have been downed with a Buk, but pro-Russian rebels have now denied they have it.

 

[Czcibor]

I give further piece of info.

Russian mercenaries claim shooting down an Ukrainian transport plane. But Ukrainians seems not to have lost any today. Connect the dots, the time fits perfectly...

http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1325017

EDIT: Shall count it as confirmed?

 

[Monique]

Absolutely horrible. Right now it is considered a military mistake, time will tell.

A passenger posted a picture of the airplane on Facebook saying "In case it disappears, this is what it looks like"
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/22866815/__Passagier_MH17_plaatst_foto_van_vliegtuig_voor_vertrek__.html

 

[nsaspook]

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014...t-down-by-missile-near-ukraine-russia-border/

Interfax reports that the Ukrainian Interior Ministry says that everyone on board was killed. The Interior Ministry claims that 23 Americans were killed in the crash, according to Interfax. The State Department is looking into whether Americans were on the flight.
...
The Donetsk region government said Thursday’s plane crashed near a village called Grabovo, which it said is currently under the control of armed pro-Russian separatists. The region where the flight was lost has seen severe fighting between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russia separatist rebels in recent days.

A launcher similar to the Buk missile system was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne, which is held by pro-Russia rebels, earlier Thursday.

On Wednesday evening, a Ukrainian fighter jet was shot down by an air-to-air missile from a Russian plane, Ukrainian authorities said Thursday, adding to what Kiev says is mounting evidence that Moscow is directly supporting the separatist insurgents in eastern Ukraine. Security Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko said the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet hit by the air-to-air missile was forced to bail after his jet was shot down.

The Pro-Russian 'rebels' had the missiles, bragged about using the missiles and now it's possible US citizens or at least US passport holders are dead along with the rest of the pax and crew because of it. Putin needs to send his forces into shut these fools down and hang the people who are responsible. Mistakes happen but this was criminal IMO with the planes IFF screaming 'I'm an airliner, I'm an airliner' ever second to the targeting radar.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Absolutely horrible. Right now it is considered a military mistake, time will tell.
A passenger posted a picture of the airplane on Facebook saying "In case it disappears, this is what it looks like"

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/22866815/__Passagier_MH17_plaatst_foto_van_vliegtuig_voor_vertrek__.html

Positively chilling

 

[jtbell]

From the BBC live text feed referenced above:

19:28: Flight recorders have been found at the crash site, Konstantin Knyrik, a spokesman for the pro-Russian rebels, has told Interfax news agency. Earlier reports quoted rebels as saying they intended to send the flight recorders to Moscow for checking.

I think Kiev might have something to say about that idea, seeing as the recorders were found on Ukrainian territory. Also Kuala Lumpur, seeing as it's their aircraft...

 

[George Jones]

I think Kiev might have something to say about that idea, seeing as the recorders were found on Ukrainian territory.

If the recorders actually are in rebel hands (and now a picture of rebels at the crash site has been posted on the BBC live text feed), what can Kiev do?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

"U.S. intelligence confirms surface-to-air missile fired at Malaysian jet but is divided over origin."
http://online.wsj.com/

 

[Czcibor]

"U.S. intelligence confirms surface-to-air missile fired at Malaysian jet but is divided over origin."
http://online.wsj.com/

The interesting thing is that the US intelligence is actually unsure whether the SAM was launched from Ukrainian territory or Russian.

 

[Borg]

"U.S. intelligence confirms surface-to-air missile fired at Malaysian jet but is divided over origin."
http://online.wsj.com/

I'm surprised that airliners were even routed over that area with the numbers of military aircraft that have been shot down. CNN was reporting that the pilots have been nervous about flying through that airspace for the last few weeks. Duh.

 

[Monique]

280 passenger and 15 crew, at least 154 Dutch people on board :( several of my friends often take that flight, thankfully they and their family/friends are all safe. My heart goes out to all the people who have lost loved ones.

 

[nsaspook]

"U.S. intelligence confirms surface-to-air missile fired at Malaysian jet but is divided over origin."
http://online.wsj.com/

The intelligence sources didn't say whether the missile was fired by Ukrainian forces or pro-Russia separatist rebels.

Divided over it's origin? That's a hoot! IMO we and Russia know exactly which missile battery pulled the trigger as this is old school basic signals intelligence from the cold war that we both have spent billions on. It's time to cut the crap with diplomatic weasel words and start dropping cards on the group that killed these people.

 

[Borg]

Divided over it's origin? That's a hoot! IMO we and Russia know exactly which missile battery pulled the trigger as this is old school basic signals intelligence from the cold war that we both have spent billions on. It's time to cut the crap with diplomatic weasel words and start dropping cards on the group that killed these people.

News sources are reporting that the Ukrainians have stated that they have phone intercepts from an insurgent commander talking to a Russian GRU and stating that they were the ones who fired the missle. I heard that on CNN but haven't been able to find an article on the web yet.

 

[AlephZero]

I'm surprised that airliners were even routed over that area with the numbers of military aircraft that have been shot down.

According to the BBC,

Eurocontrol said the aircraft had been flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar.

This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but had been open at the height level at which the aircraft was flying.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28356745

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

News sources are reporting that the Ukrainians have stated that they have phone intercepts from an insurgent commander talking to a Russian GRU and stating that they were the ones who fired the missle. I heard that on CNN but haven't been able to find an article on the web yet.

This is apparently the audio, but it appears to be completely in Russian. Can anyone translate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw

 

[Czcibor]

I googled this "Major", "Greek" and set only last hour so I found a tape script (was already on Polish TV)



BREAKING>>> INTERCEPTED CONVERSATION: Terrorists admit shooting down ‪#‎MH17‬ , thinking it was Ukrainian
A conversation was intercepted between pro-Russian separatists today claiming they had shot down the plane, thinking it was Ukrainian.

From the video:
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.
VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago.
SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to
the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part
of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.
“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin
check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
“Grek”: Yes, Major.
“Major”: The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine.
The first “200″ (code word for dead person). We have found the first
“200″. A Civilian.
“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?
“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.
“Greek”: Are many people there?
“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).
“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?
“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only
surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains
of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?
“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.
“Greek”: Are there documents?
“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

EDIT2:
source of tape script: https://www.facebook.com/TribulationNow/posts/688232574578099

(that's roughly similar translation to the one from Polish media, so treat it as rather correct)

EDIT2: your video starts with with the second half. The first slide starts with "the plane fell apart in air"

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw

Thanks! That last comment in the video is very telling. Very disturbing mindset.

 

[Borg]

Thanks! That last comment in the video is very telling. Very disturbing mindset.

Yeah. A civilian aircraft? They must have been spies!

 

[nsaspook]

Thanks! That last comment in the video is very telling. Very disturbing mindset.

It doesn't excuse any of their actions of letting total morons even touch an AA missile but he does have a point of why that flight followed a route in a hot war zone with previous high/low altitude shoot-downs in the last few weeks. I guess you could wait for Ukraine or some air agency to officially close it's air space but you have to be aware of the level of risk like we did with US carriers.

It looks like most are avoiding the airspace now: http://planefinder.net/location/49.147345,26.426459,6

 

[George Jones]

“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson

In the video, the statement is "Yes, one belonging to a student from Indonesia, from Thompson University"

I live about a 2.5 hour drive from Thompson Rivers University. I wonder ...

http://inside.tru.ca/2011/07/15/more-diversity-for-tru-with-indonesian-agreement/

 

[jim hardy]

It doesn't excuse any of their actions of letting total morons even touch an AA missile

Weapons like that floating around excitable young men ?

My initial reaction this morning: it was a "Hey, y'all, watch this!..." moment .

 

[OmCheeto]

Weapons like that floating around excitable young men ?

My initial reaction this morning: it was a "Hey, y'all, watch this!..." moment .

This was also my initial reaction.

And my second.

 

[DavidSnider]

My first reaction was "This sounds like an ideal false flag operation." Not that I think it is, but it would be.

 

[nsaspook]

Weapons like that floating around excitable young men ?

My initial reaction this morning: it was a "Hey, y'all, watch this!..." moment .

Unfortunately that's probably pretty close to what happened but even with the best crews and equipment you sometimes see things in such a narrow focus it can warp your actions into doing something really stupid like the Vincennes crew did during the 1987-88 Iran shadow war that most people have forgotten.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight801/stories/july88crash.htm

Iran Operation Images: http://www.insidethedangerzone.com/gallery/index.php?start=31

But in the past year, although the United States and Iran are not in a formal state of war, there have been a series of brief but fierce sea battles in the gulf between the two countries' military forces. Vigilance and readiness among U.S. forces intensified after the near-sinking of the patrol frigate USS Stark by an Iraqi fighter-bomber on May 17, 1987, in a missile attack that killed 37 sailors.

Yesterday started out as another sea battle, and ended with what the Vincennes commanders misinterpreted as a "Stark profile" attack on the high-tech cruiser. Crowe in his briefing and other Navy and Defense Department officials offered a detailed version of how the shoot-down occurred.

So while we can easily condemn this shoot-down, we (the USA) have been there before.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Talk about a double whammy. Just tragic for humanity in general.

Malaysia Plane Crash Victims Included About 100 AIDS Conference Attendees, Report Suggests
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/who-malaysia-plane-crash-victims-aids-_n_5597547.html

 

[Astronuc]

Apparently 30 investigators are on site.

http://news.yahoo.com/malaysian-airliner-downed-ukraine-war-zone-298-dead-012626688--finance.html

Russia and Ukraine are blaming the other, although Ukraine indicates pro-Russian separatists using Russian-supplied missiles. Various nations are calling for a full investigation, while others are implicating Russia or pro-Russian separatists.

Commercial airlines apparently fly over war zones to save fuel at the risk of those on-board. If only they have flown 10, 20 or 50 miles to the west, they may have avoided those who fired the missile.Meanwhile - "Russian President Vladimir Putin called on Friday for a ceasefire by pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian government forces fighting in eastern Ukraine to allow for negotiations."
http://news.yahoo.com/russias-putin-calls-ceasefire-east-ukraine-121614494.html

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...e4a-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html?hpid=z1

“Our assessment is that Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 . . . was likely downed by an SA-11 missile, operated from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine,” U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power told the U.N. Security Council on Friday.

She added that “because of the technical complexity of the SA-11,” it was unlikely that the separatists could have effectively operated it on their own. “We cannot rule out Russian technical assistance,” Power said.

So we have essentially collaborated the phone intercepts as legit. I expect the Ukrainian signal services have much more on who exactly operated the systems and how they are now trying to hide the evidence with help from their Russian advisers.

It won't work as I'm pretty sure our independent systems have all we need already to make a solid case of who, what ,when and how.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_and_signature_intelligence#United_States

 

[Monique]

Commercial airlines apparently fly over war zones to save fuel at the risk of those on-board. If only they have flown 10, 20 or 50 miles to the west, they may have avoided those who fired the missile.

I understood the airplane had to deviate its path more to the north due to storms in the area, which probably contributed to the event. Clearly the airline companies weren't expecting amateurs having professional equipment to shoot down airplanes. I hope this will sharpen the protocols and lead to safer flight paths. This is a crime against humanity and the ones responsible should be brought to international court.

 

[fluidistic]

A famous scientist who fought against AIDS was in the plane with his wife: Joep Lange.

 

[Monique]

Talk about a double whammy. Just tragic for humanity in general.

Malaysia Plane Crash Victims Included About 100 AIDS Conference Attendees, Report Suggests
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/who-malaysia-plane-crash-victims-aids-_n_5597547.html

I found it hard to believe that number and indeed that number now appears to be much lower (seven confirmed): http://m.washingtonpost.com/nationa...a31972-0e85-11e4-8341-b8072b1e7348_story.html Although it is hard to know for sure, without publication of the official passenger list (4 passengers are still of unconfirmed identity).

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVAOTWPmMM4

More intercepts of rebel/Russian operations.

 

[Drakkith]

A sad day for HIV/Aids research.

Over 100 HIV Experts And Advocates May Have Been On Board Crashed Malaysian Plane

http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...s-may-have-been-board-crashed-malaysian-plane

 

[Monique]

A sad day for HIV/Aids research.

Over 100 HIV Experts And Advocates May Have Been On Board Crashed Malaysian Plane

http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...s-may-have-been-board-crashed-malaysian-plane

You missed my post on the previous page:

I found it hard to believe that number and indeed that number now appears to be much lower (seven confirmed): http://m.washingtonpost.com/nationa...a31972-0e85-11e4-8341-b8072b1e7348_story.html Although it is hard to know for sure, without publication of the official passenger list (4 passengers are still of unconfirmed identity).

Currently I understand that all passengers have been confirmed, so when all next of kin have been contacted I expect the passenger list will be released.

 

[Drakkith]

You missed my post on the previous page:

Indeed I did. My mistake.

 

[Monique]

Still a sad day for HIV/Aids research, you are right, because experts and probably young scientists have been lost.

 

[AlephZero]

Over 100 HIV Experts And Advocates May Have Been On Board Crashed Malaysian Plane

So medical researchers don't do risk assessments on their travel arrangements?

Working in industry, we would think twice before flying even 5 people across the Atlantic on the same flight. And we were thinking like that for decades before 9-11.

 

[StevieTNZ]

This was on my Facebook Feed:
"Any numbers people here? What does 17 mean? The plane that crashed was MH17. It first went into service on July 17, 17 years ago, and crashed on July 17. Ummm."

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSXMhaFntrU
It's got cheesy music that makes me sick but this is the basic launch procedure for a BUK. It's a old system so almost everything is analog, at about 1:20 you see the ground radar target lock process, at 2:30 you see the missile radar target lock and track a practice target.

Without a RWR MH17 never saw it coming but a space based system could record the emissions and develop the radar signature for system type classification and location easily.

 

[Student100]

So medical researchers don't do risk assessments on their travel arrangements?

Working in industry, we would think twice before flying even 5 people across the Atlantic on the same flight. And we were thinking like that for decades before 9-11.

The news about the hiv "researchers" on that flight is very misleading, most weren't even researchers. Almost all were from different agencies, so I doubt they take the time to coordinate their travel with the thousands of other agencies out there.

Really, most of the "researchers" were in fact lobbyists or activists, not researchers.

Still sucks, and will add a bit of somberness to Melbourne this year.

 

[russ_watters]

So medical researchers don't do risk assessments on their travel arrangements?

Working in industry, we would think twice before flying even 5 people across the Atlantic on the same flight. And we were thinking like that for decades before 9-11.

How many decades? These days, plane crashes are so exceedingly rare that if a risk assessment concludes you shouldn't fly together, it should also conclude you shouldn't ever drive together or have dinner together.

 

[AlephZero]

if a risk assessment concludes you shouldn't fly together, it should also conclude you shouldn't ever drive together or have dinner together.

Agreed. And if people fly together, almost by definition that means they will be hanging around in the the airport together, delegating one person to look after all the hand luggage, etc. The plane crashing is only one factor to consider.

The point being that one would hope any medical researchers would apply some risk analysis to their actual research. Maybe they did apply it to their travel arrangements as well - but who knows.

 

[jtbell]

These days, plane crashes are so exceedingly rare that if a risk assessment concludes you shouldn't fly together, it should also conclude you shouldn't ever drive together or have dinner together.

Or go to a presidential inaugural or State of the Union address together, unless you appoint a Designated Survivor.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/19/malaysia-air-crash-missile-launcher-used-to-down-jet-likely-back-in-russia-us/

The missile launcher used to down Malaysia Air flight MH17 is probably back in Russia after it was imported into Ukraine a few weeks ago, a well-placed source with access to the latest intelligence told Fox News Friday night.

The same source also said the missile that brought down the plane Thursday killing all 298 on board was fired from Schnidze, a town in eastern Ukraine.
"We are building a case," the senior U.S. official told Fox News. "It is damn near bulletproof at this point."

The U.S. intelligence community used infrared data, measurements and electronic signals, among other methods, to determine the origin of the missile's path.

So it's pretty clear Russia has dropped the launcher down a mine shaft by now in a lame effort to hide its complicity in this shoot-down. I can only hope the local field commanders (like Igor Strelkov) and those who ordered this will follow it down as Russia attempts to use it's normal methods of 'disappearance' to clean up a mess of it's own making.

So if our case is really 'damn near bulletproof' what action should the world take besides monetary compensation directly related to the crash from Russia?

http://online.wsj.com/articles/eu-weighs-dramatically-raising-sanctions-against-russia-1405705981

How far the bloc will go, however, will depend in whether the 28 countries can agree on a position.

The EU, whose sanctions have generally fallen short of the tougher measures imposed by the U.S., has been hampered in part by a disagreement among members. Some southern European nations, led by Italy, and others including Hungary and Bulgaria that depend on Russian energy, have resisted harsher sanctions.

One official said the potential for retaliatory actions by Russia "are weighing quite heavily on member states."

Most people wisely want to stay out of this mess but something should be done to prevent the delivery and use of advanced long-range weapons that can affect third parties. Russia is the only one who can really do that in Ukraine.

 

[Monique]

It's upsetting how long it takes to get experts to the region to start the recovery of victims and investigation of the attack. People are rummaging through the wreckage and are loading debris into trucks, most evidence must be gone by now.