Calculus Marsden 1979 vs Marsden 6th edition

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The discussion focuses on the differences between the 1979 edition and the 6th edition of Marsden and Tromba's Vector Calculus, particularly regarding accessibility for an 11th grader. The 6th edition is noted to have more exercises and includes a solutions guide, which may aid in self-learning. While the Marsden book is considered challenging yet rewarding, Spivak's Calculus on Manifolds is viewed as more theoretical and condensed, potentially overwhelming for some students. It is suggested that the student should examine both editions to determine which one they find more comfortable. Ultimately, the choice may depend on the student's learning style and the specific features they find beneficial.
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Could you help me understand the difference between both editions and which one would be less confusing and more comfortable for self learning for a 11th grader? He will combine it with Spivak. Thanks for your help!
 
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Hi Homelilly. I am one of the people who recommended multivariable calc books to you back in March. I see you have chosen a different one from those we recommended, presumably based on the choice of your instructor. Since we have no first - hand knowledge of the background or ability of the student, we recommended based on quality of material in the books, and stature of the authors.

Your question today is relevant, i.e. which edition of Marsden would be more accessible to the student, but it is one we have less ability to answer. The best way to find out if a book is comfortable for the student is to have the student try it. This may be possible by visiting a university library where old editions of a given book are often available, combined with visiting a bookstore where the latest one is found.

I will try to say something of use however. First of all, what books are you speaking of? I.e. I presume you refer to Vector Calculus, by Marsden and Tromba, and Spivak's Calculus on Manifolds. (In my opinion, Marsden and Tromba is a decent book if not as substantial as those we recommended.)

These two books are very different. I have taught from Spivak to average students at a state college, and from the second edition of Marsden and Tromba to honors high school students at a good private school in Atlanta.

Spivak was far too condensed and difficult for my average college students, assuming far too much background and sophistication, and it (and I) created a pressure environment they mostly found inappropriate; (except for one strong student who found it ideal, having transferred in from Notre Dame, and who gained confidence to transfer back there afterwards).

The honors high school students found Marsden and Tromba quite challenging and abstract, with its treatment and emphasis on n -dimensional linear algebra, which was new to them. Still they were so strong and interested, that it challenged and appealed to (most of) them. One of the strongest among them changed his major from English to math, went on to Yale, and is now a well known professional research mathematician. Another of them went on to second year calc at Harvard as a freshman and (I believe) achieved phi beta kappa status, and later a phd in physics.

I suggest you have your student look at Marsden/Tromba, and maybe also at Analysis on Manifolds, by Munkres, which I have not read, but which looks from its table of contents like an attempt to expand on Spivak, making it likely a good companion. Munkres is a very highly regarded author, considered unusually readable.

As to which edition of Marsden and Tromba to prefer, I have only seen the second edition. But a general remark is that in most cases it does not matter which edition you buy of a textbook. I.e. usually the authors do their best on the first edition. Then if it sells, the publishers try to get them to revise it so it will sell more. This may mean putting in more easy problems, or taking out more difficult topics, or even just making minor changes. Only rarely is a later edition thoroughly rewritten and improved*. Hence in general I tend to recommend the cheapest edition, usually an early one. In this case I found a used copy of Marsden and Tromba online for under $10, maybe 1st edition, and a second edition for under $20.
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=marsden, tromba&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&ref_=search_f_hp&sts=t

*PS: Occasionally a later edition corrects errors from an earlier one. My copy of Spivak, published October 1965, has "addenda", on pages 145-6, containing amplifications of some proofs, that are recommended. As I recall they were missing from my first edition printed in maybe January 1965, so you might avoid that earliest printing of that edition. I just noticed also that his 1968 preface to the 1971 version of his book, at amazon, says he has corrected numerous errors and misprints brought to his attention. So I recommend getting the 1971 or later version of Spivak's Calculus on Manifolds, or any copy containing that 1968 preface (even my "October 1965" one does). Here are used copies of Spivak under $30:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Michael spivak&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&ref_=search_f_hp&sts=t&tn=calculus on manifolds

From my reading of reviews on amazon, it looks as if Munkres might be preferred to Spivak for similar content and easier readability. Still there is something nice, from my perspective, about having the material presented succinctly as Spivak does, but maybe not necessarily when first learning it.

good luck.
 
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Mathwonk, thanks a lot for the detailed response. Yes, you are correct - I have already made a decision about the calculus books, but he is having a class right now. The teacher advised to take Spivak. Considering that the teacher is a God to him, he wants to do Spivak, and because Spivak is more for theory and proofs, Marsden would be good for his favorite physics. He has a solid foundation, so I think he will be ok with both books (learning Purcell right now on electricity and having a lot of fun every morning), though he liked Apostol, and the end of the course was not so irritating and without complaints compared to the beginning with Thomas.
I have the old Marsden from 1979, and the pdf of the 6th edition, and I noticed the later one has many more exercises than the previous one. I asked about the difference because the 6th edition has a solution guide while the 1979 edition does not, and it's kind of important for me.
As for Spivak, I was thinking about getting the 3rd or 4th edition with the solutions.
By the way, I was reading a lot of replies on the well-trained mind forum from the 2010s with the name mathwonk, who gave very helpful and essential comments on calculus and math. Are you the same person?
 
Yes I am the mathwonk from well trained mind. I helped inaugurate the summer program "epsilon camp" with George Thomas (as a lecturer and web based tutor) in 2011 for brilliant elementary schoolers. I taught them from Euclid, in my opinion the best geometry book ever written, and never matched since his time, not even close; and Robin Hartshorne's wonderful companion volume Geometry:Euclid and Beyond.
In the web based sessions I taught algebra, plane isometries, space rotations, and topology of surfaces (both combinatorial and differential).
You still have not told me the title of the book by Spivak you are referring to. Since you speak of solution manuals, I suspect now it is the one variable calculus book entitled Calculus, Is that right? That is a wonderful book, very highly recommended. I do not know of any solutions manual for the several variables book Calculus on Manifolds, nor do I know of any 3rd and 4th editions, but I may be wrong. (Mike Spivak was a friend of mine at Brandeis.) Of course now in the internet era there are solution manuals for many things.
well what do you know?
https://thomasjoelhughes.wordpress....19/02/calculus_on_manifolds_solutions-4-4.pdf

Since you already own both editions of Marsden and Tromba's Vector Calculus (is that the correct book?) there is less concern about which to use, as your child can just decide by looking at them. Or if only one has a feature you prefer, like solutions, I would choose that one.
My teaching colleague for the high school course, a physics major, also liked that aspect of the Marsden-Tromba book.

By the way, in my opinion one does not usually learn anything by reading someone else's solution of a problem, only by trying it oneself, even unsuccessfully. As a professor, I used the calculus solutions manual as a doorstop for my office. If you cannot tell whether your solution of a problem is correct yourself, you have not understood the problem, and I recommend you should think about it further, or work it an alternate way to see if you get the same answer again. It may take time to appreciate this point.
 
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Note that the stated goal of that book is to enable the student to pass an exam, rather than to understand the subject. It is neither proof based nor rigorous, hence I suspect it may not be quite what the current student, who has enjoyed Apostol, is looking for. Of course since it is linked, everyone can judge for himself. It does include solutions it seems....
I have just noted that later editions of Marsden and Tromba, unlike Apostol, are also not especially theoretical, so perhaps the linked book is closer to what is sought than I realized.

Further research on the later editions of Marsden and Tromba suggest that some theoretical material was removed that had been included in earlier editions. This could be confirmed (or refuted) by a specific comparison of the second and 6th editions. Here is a link provided by the authors to some theoretical material that they say is omitted from the 5th edition, for the benefit of students wanting deeper coverage. I do not know if this material was in fact included in the second edition.
https://www.cds.caltech.edu/~marsden/volume/vcalc/2003/VC5_Int_Sup.pdf
 
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mathwonk said:
Yes I am the mathwonk from well trained mind. I helped inaugurate the summer program "epsilon camp" with George Thomas (as a lecturer and web based tutor) in 2011 for brilliant elementary schoolers. I taught them from Euclid, in my opinion the best geometry book ever written, and never matched since his time, not even close; and Robin Hartshorne's wonderful companion volume Geometry:Euclid and Beyond.
In the web based sessions I taught algebra, plane isometries, space rotations, and topology of surfaces (both combinatorial and differential).
You still have not told me the title of the book by Spivak you are referring to. Since you speak of solution manuals, I suspect now it is the one variable calculus book entitled Calculus, Is that right? That is a wonderful book, very highly recommended. I do not know of any solutions manual for the several variables book Calculus on Manifolds, nor do I know of any 3rd and 4th editions, but I may be wrong. (Mike Spivak was a friend of mine at Brandeis.) Of course now in the internet era there are solution manuals for many things.
well what do you know?
https://thomasjoelhughes.wordpress....19/02/calculus_on_manifolds_solutions-4-4.pdf

Since you already own both editions of Marsden and Tromba's Vector Calculus (is that the correct book?) there is less concern about which to use, as your child can just decide by looking at them. Or if only one has a feature you prefer, like solutions, I would choose that one.
My teaching colleague for the high school course, a physics major, also liked that aspect of the Marsden-Tromba book.

By the way, in my opinion one does not usually learn anything by reading someone else's solution of a problem, only by trying it oneself, even unsuccessfully. As a professor, I used the calculus solutions manual as a doorstop for my office. If you cannot tell whether your solution of a problem is correct yourself, you have not understood the problem, and I recommend you should think about it further, or work it an alternate way to see if you get the same answer again. It may take time to appreciate this point.
It's nice to see you here! That's good news for me - I like to read old posts on welltainedmind, they show a lot of hints and paths on how to homeschool, especially in the subjects I am completely clueless, and since we have three more kids to go, I am grateful for the opportunity to ask your opinion.
I read that thread about the camps, and it's good that you reminded about it. My 6th grader will start intro to geometry with loveof math that is based on aops, and I will check the books you mentioned on geometry to add for her. She is finishing intro to algebra B, and she is doing elements of mathematics (loves it more than anything else) - will she be ok with these books on her own? Her older brothers can help her since they are done with geometry.
I thought that book https://mathpop.com/products/calculus-4th-edition was for MVC - but I am not sure about that after your comment. I will check how it's different from calculus on manifolds (he is taking differential geometry in July, and wants to try with Dif Geometry Volume I Spivak, he will see how he likes the author.
Since he likes physics so much, I would like to make calculus more fun for him, and that's why I was thinking about Marsden, and the 1979 edition is better with fewer exercises.
As for the solutions, he agrees with you and do not like the solutions, but I need to check his papers sometimes for the grades and see that he is writing the same as in the book (have a brilliant boy who can write a lot of stuff nut it's not always correct, so I learnt that with homeschooling kids it's essential to have solutions and check them from time to time).
I appreciate your taking the time to read problems and help me solve them!
 
mathwonk said:
Note that the stated goal of that book is to enable the student to pass an exam, rather than to understand the subject. It is neither proof based nor rigorous, hence I suspect it may not be quite what the current student, who has enjoyed Apostol, is looking for. Of course since it is linked, everyone can judge for himself. It does include solutions it seems....
I have just noted that later editions of Marsden and Tromba, unlike Apostol, are also not especially theoretical, so perhaps the linked book is closer to what is sought than I realized.
Do you mean calculus by Spivak? I need him to understand the subject - to pass the exam he is supposed to do, Thomas, but he wants more (and last year Thomas was a torture), but I am thinking of having him take the licatures, not do homework on Thomas, and do Spivak and Marsden and do exams. As usual, break the system and do it in our way.
After he finishes the diff geom, he might try both apostol and spivak to see for himself.
He likes proofs, so more theoretical will be ok. At least, he sailed through AOPS, and I had to stand over him for doing Thomas, figuratively speaking.
 
  • #10
In the first sentence of post #6 "that book" referred to the MIT book linked in post #5.

The Spivak book you linked in post #7 is indeed his famous one variable calculus book. Volume 1 of his also famous differential geometry book is very detailed and inclusive on calculus on manifolds. It is also quite challenging. He states in that book that his Calculus on Manifolds is essentially a prerequisite, or any linear algebra based several variables calculus course, plus an acquaintance with metric spaces, or even better, topological spaces.

Differential geometry is a big subject and can be treated on many levels. E.g. with only calculus of two variables one can study differential geometry of plane curves. Most introductions also include some study of surfaces in three space.
On another level one can study differential geometry in n dimensions on abstract manifolds not even embedded in Euclidean space. Spivak intends to write "the great American differential geometry book" covering everything at very high level of abstraction. He eventually wrote 5 volumes.
So he starts off in volume one just laying the foundation for later work, with a thorough treatment of abstract manifolds and their calculus. He spends hundreds of pages on this, and does not even actually do any differential geometry until volume two.

I am not sure just what you are asking about for your daughter, but in general I admire books from AOPS.
 
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  • #11
mathwonk said:
In the first sentence of post #6 "that book" referred to the MIT book linked in post #5.

The Spivak book you linked in post #7 is indeed his famous one variable calculus book. Volume 1 of his also famous differential geometry book is very detailed and inclusive on calculus on manifolds. It is also quite challenging. He states in that book that his Calculus on Manifolds is essentially a prerequisite, or any linear algebra based several variables calculus course, plus an acquaintance with metric spaces, or even better, topological spaces.
Thanks for mentioning that! Otherwise, I would buy the wring books.
Is that one for MVC? https://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Man...cal-Theorems/dp/0805390219/?tag=pfamazon01-20
But it's only 162 pages.
 
  • #12
Yes, that is it, and indeed it is very condensed. (The text is actually only about 146 pages.). That is why I suggested looking at the book by Munkres, which seems intended to be an expansion of Spivak's short book.
https://www.amazon.com/Analysis-Manifolds-Advanced-Books-Classics/dp/0201315963?tag=pfamazon01-20

But the one variable calculus book of Spivak is also a wonderful book, highly recommended. I have had a copy for over 50 years.

Since it is your favorite teacher who is recommending Spivak, I suggest you verify which book he/she is speaking of. It may well be the very famous one variable book. In the community at large, the term "Spivak calculus" always refers to that book.

Here is a free copy of an introductory differential geometry book by another friend, Ted Shifrin.
https://math.franklin.uga.edu/sites...Tk5NDUkbzI0JGcwJHQxNzUwMzU5OTQ1JGo2MCRsMCRoMA..

Ted is also author of a several variables calculus book, whose price has climbed somewhat out of reach, but his lectures are available on YouTube:
 
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  • #13
mathwonk said:
Yes, that is it, and indeed it is very condensed. (The text is actually only about 146 pages.). That is why I suggested looking at the book by Munkres, which seems intended to be an expansion of Spivak's short book.
https://www.amazon.com/Analysis-Manifolds-Advanced-Books-Classics/dp/0201315963?tag=pfamazon01-20

But the one variable calculus book of Spivak is also a wonderful book, highly recommended. I have had a copy for over 50 years.
Thanks for clarifying it, now I understand what you meant.
Then, he will look at Munkres and Apostol.
That's a life-long love! I wish he had time in the summer to go through it.
 
  • #14
have you seen (the rest of) post #12? I augmented it.
 
  • #15
Homelilly said:
Thanks a lot! I have it - what do you like about it? The kid loves OTIS - is doing the problems right now.
It's not super formal but also acknowledges where it's being handwavy. It's also free. And the exercises are more thought-provoking than is usual for non-proof based texts. And it uses linear algebra where appropriate.

Spivak's Calculus on Manifold's text is probably too challenging for a student taking multivariable calculus for the first time. The terseness means exactly what you might think - much is left for the reader. I think Apostol vol 2 and Hubbard and Hubbard are more accessible texts that are still rigorous and proof based.
 
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  • #17
as for my opinion of Thomas calculus, see my post #20 in this thread:

Some of the recommended editions of Thomas occur here used for under $15. https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=George B. Thomas&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&ref_=search_f_hp&sts=t&tn=Calculus and Analytic geometry
In my opinion, Spivak Calculus (new) is actually worth $100, as is also Apostol. My opinion is influenced by the fact that Spivak was a friend of mine, and not having a job as a professor, was entirely dependent on sales of this book for his livelihood.
 
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  • #18
mathwonk said:
as for my opinion of Thomas calculus, see my post #20 in this thread:

Some of the recommended editions of Thomas occur here used for under $15. https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=George B. Thomas&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&ref_=search_f_hp&sts=t&tn=Calculus and Analytic geometry
In my opinion, Spivak Calculus (new) is actually worth $100, as is also Apostol. My opinion is influenced by the fact that Spivak was a friend of mine, and not having a job as a professor, was entirely dependent on sales of this book for his livelihood.
What non-professorial career was he in, and where does the money go now that he has passed?
 
  • #19
I guess he was considered a scientific publisher. Mike was apparently able, primarily from the sales of his Calculus book, to spend his time independently thinking, learning and writing about various subjects that interested him, starting with differential geometry, including mathematical typesetting, and perhaps ending with physics, i.e. trying to understand Newton's Principia. (I have a copy he gave me of a short early version of his physics book, Physics for mathematicians, the short version titled Elementary mechanics from a mathematician's viewpoint, based on lectures given at Keio University, Yokohama, Japan.) If we are lucky, current sales of his books will contribute to making them remain available for future generations. Here is an appreciation of his life by some of his friends and colleagues, an obituary, and some comments by his surviving partner on the future of his books.
https://www.ams.org/notices/202406/rnoti-p786.pdf

It seems publication of his books may have been assumed by Hindustan Publications.
https://hpcedu.com/product/calculus-fourth-edition/

This is to me an interesting development. David Mumford's second volume of his algebraic geometry book is also published by the "Hindustan Book Agency", whereas the first volume was published by Springer. I wonder if this is part of a reaction by mathematicians to what has been viewed as recent price gouging practiced by some previously revered European math publishers, both regarding textbooks and especially journals. I noticed some years back that lecture notes in advanced math, once available for 3 or 4 dollars, had jumped to costing hundreds. This situation may be easing again.
 
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  • #20
Muu9 said:
It's not super formal but also acknowledges where it's being handwavy. It's also free. And the exercises are more thought-provoking than is usual for non-proof based texts. And it uses linear algebra where appropriate.

Spivak's Calculus on Manifold's text is probably too challenging for a student taking multivariable calculus for the first time. The terseness means exactly what you might think - much is left for the reader. I think Apostol vol 2 and Hubbard and Hubbard are more accessible texts that are still rigorous and proof based.
Thanks for the advice. I have printed all of them (except for Hubbard), and I hope he will make a decision closer to August. He will have a rigorous course on Diff Geometry in the summer, so I hope it will help with Spivak.
 
  • #21
Muu9 said:
No, this is a rigorous single variable calculus book.

Is your son taking a non-proof based multivariable calculus course?
No, it will be a proof-based course; he also took a year-long proof-based course, so he likes this part of math much more. Thanks for mentioning it, I will look for the correct one on manifolds.
 

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