Need Help Mechanical double lid lifter

[cybertron]

Hi All

I'm new to the site. And please no negative comments. Its just a waste of being helped!


What I want too construct is a Square tubular aluminum bar 18'' long 1'' square dia with a 9'' long tubular aluminum bar place on top and hinged on each side of the 18'' bar what the two smaller bars would do is lift the two lids at the same time and at any angle from O-dgrees to 100-dgs.Like Push and pull

How can i make one of the 9'' bars lift as the other 9'' bar is being lifted by a motor. and without any pullies or cables on the oposite 9'' bar. I seen this mechanism somewhere but can't remember where.

Dose anyone know of or see a mechanism that make one bar lifts as the other bar pulls.
This mechanism would be extrude in the square tubular bar.

 

[Danger]

Welcome to PF, Cybertron.
You won't get any negative comments here, at least of a derogatory nature. I must admit, though, that your objective eludes me. More description would be helpful.
If the bit that I can gather is accurate, then I'm thinking of having both bars brazed or bolted to a common axle.

 

[cybertron]

Danger thanks for responding

My objective eludes me too! Thats why I'm having a problem figuring out how too construct this as simple as it sounds but its not impossible I would need some sought of push pull mechanism that I could make from common hardware materials.

I'll try too get a simple sketch out to make it much clear what i need.

 

[nvn]

What about something like this? Not to scale.

EDIT: Oops. As drawn, the doors will be locked in place when they close (due to the over-center feature of the right-hand door). Sorry.

 

[cybertron]

NVN

looks close too what i need, but not exactly. The hinges could be used for rotation and angle position.

The rod you included will not work in that position. And the bottom part can't be used.
But it is close.

 

[tyroman]

What about this? (credit to nvn)

 

[nvn]

What about something like this? Not to scale.

 

[cybertron]

tyroman.

Close. Still bottom part will not work and that top piece can't be there do too the two bar must closed at 0dg.

NVN.

Much closer the bottom still wouldn't work in my application.

I been trying too come up with a sketch I will try to post it some time today this afternoon.

Everyones help is appreciated.

 

[cybertron]

Here's a simple drawn up sketch too explain as best as I could in what I'm trying too construct.

The lifter will be made from aluminum or wood.

In the image I provide is the Lifter not the two lids, This lifter will be attach too two leaf style lids.

As you can see in the sketch two small sq tubular bars will lift the two lids from Odgs-100dgs.

How this should work is when any side is lifted the smaller bars either the right or left bar the opposite side will lift at the same time.

So basicly what I need is some knid of mechanism to pull and too push open two lids at the same time as seen in the sketch.
one side will have a motor to lift one of the bars so that's the pulling, now the same mechanism needs too push up the opposite side for the other lid too open that's the pushing. I hope this makes any since on how this lifter is suppose to function.

I hope the sketch uploaded to this thead the image might be small do to the bit size image limit.

 

[nvn]

What about something like this? Not to scale.

 

[tyroman]

cybertron,

In your reply to my previous post, you said;
"tyroman.

Close. Still bottom part will not work and that top piece can't be there do too the two bar must closed at 0dg."

Is the "bottom part" the motor? the linkage? the extension of the left-hand door?

And is the "top piece" the cam device which would be affixed to the left door and bear upon the under-side of the right door?

In your original post you say;
"This mechanism would be extrude in the square tubular bar."
and, in your sketch you appear to depict a motor inside of a 1" diameter tube...

Why? There must be a better place to locate the motor, and requiring the drive mechanism to be "inside" the tube becomes quite complex.

In various places you refer to 90 or 100 degrees - where are you measuring this angle?

Finally, and with full credit to nvn for his last post, I offer an alternative mechanism... see attached.

ps; if you save your sketch as a .jpg file or .png it will be about 20 KB.

 

[cybertron]

tyroman

Yes I did say your image was close. But what i should have said is the mechanism that you're inply in your image will not work in my application.
As stated this lifter will open and closed from Odgs in the closed position and 90dgs or 100dgs in the open position.

Also in your image that piece that's attach too the left top side of the lid bearing on the right side of the lid wouldn't work for me.

In my original post yes I did say extrude I ment the mechanism will go through the sq tubing.I didn't dpict any motor going into the 1''tubular bar that would be impossible even for any type of motor. I stated a motor will lift the smaller tubular bar.

I also stated I'm looking for a mechanical mechanism that could be placed in the 1'' inch long tubular bar I did not state a drive motor mechanism at all inside the tubular bar.You stated that. Even in my sketch there is no drive motor mechanism inside the tube I stated some type of mechaninal mechanism. I also stated in my sketch that a motor will be attached to the smaller tubular bar too lift it from the closed position Odgs to the open position to 90dgs or 100dgs.

I thing you're misunderstanding what i need. Its knid of hard too explain too anyone without explaining it in person.

Yes i did mention in places 90 Or 100 degee angles these angles come from the smaller liftiing bar that lifts the two lids that smaller bar will be attach to the long bar that i drawn in my sketch the angle of lift, gos form 0dgs to 100dgs.

As for the sketch it was drawn in MS PAINT can you save an image in PAINT as a .jpg file
or a png file I throught MS PAINT stores the file only as a Bitmap.

If you just look at my sketch as you see there is a long tubular bar and there's two smaller bars equal too the length of the long tubular bar,as you lift anyone of the smaller tubular bars the opposite side will lift at the same time and at any angle i want up too either 90dgs or 100dgs this is how the (Mechaninal) mechanism should work.

Any motor that I use will only assist to lift the lid that will be attach either one side of the smaller tubular bars on the lifter. In my sketch this image is the lifter, its not the lids.The lids will be attach only too the two smaller tubular bars.

This is why I'm trying too build a mechanial mechanism so I can lift the small tubular bars.

This mechanism is call a push and pull mechanism I seen one before but I don't remember where. what it dose is if you lift anyone of the smaller bars they pull and push at one another too lift on side as the other side is being pull on to lift the opposite side.
and there no motor driven mechanism too in the lifting of the bars its all mechanial.
I will include a motor that will only assist with the weight of one side of the lid.But i wouldn't need the motor just too lift the lids. The motor is there to assist with the weight of one of the lids.

Also. I don't have or use a CAD software what program do you use for sketching.

 

[Danger]

what program do you use for sketching.

I use Adobe Illustrator. Depending upon which of my computers I'm using, that ranges from version 4 to 10. I have CS as well, but my ex-wife accidentally dumped a beer into that computer so I can't use it.

 

[nvn]

In MS Paint, select File > Save As > png, not jpg; .jpg is for photographs, .png is for graphics. What about something like this? Not to scale.

 

[cybertron]

nvn.

Please explain too me how this will work, what are those sq shapes in your image.

Remember now in my sketch this is only the lifter. The mechanial lifter mechanism must work too lift (without being attach to the lid) so if I was too pull up on one of the smaller bars in my sketch the other bar on the opposite side will lift up too and at the same time. This is how the lifter must work. Pull and Push.

 

[nvn]

cybertron: I now added some labels to the attached file in post 14; see the revised file. The blocks at points E and F are generic supports for linkage rod BC. No specific detail or attachment method for these two supports at points E and F is implied in my diagram. (These support blocks are called "bushing or bearing" in the diagram by tyroman in post 11.) In my post 14 diagram, linkage bars AB and CD are connected to the square tubes at points A and D by inserting a horizontal pin or bolt through the square tube (not shown). You grind off the bottom face of the square tube at point D to allow the right-hand door to rotate to 100 deg. Linkage bar AB passes through slots in the left-hand tube and long tube.

 

[cybertron]

nvn ,

What sort of linkage part are you using to attach together bar A to B AND C to D for the two rods or bars in your image too move. And will I beable to lift either side of the small bars so the opposite side lift on its own.

I will enclose another sketch so you can see or uuderstand better about what i need.maybe that bar attachment my work in mt new image of my lifter.

 

[cybertron]

nvn

I made a new sketch in MS PAINT. But when I (save as) .file in png as you suggested some of the image is losted the the words are disstored and blury. what is happing to the image and is this normal in saving the file in .png.

 

[tyroman]

The images which have been posted by nvn (and me) can be copied from your browser (right-click>save as) to your desktop and opened from there with MSPaint. You can then edit them as needed. When done, select File>Save As , give the image a new name (leave the extension as .png) and save it to your desktop. From there, you can attach the new edited image to your post with a description of your edits.

If, while you have one of our images open in MSPaint, you click on Image>Attributes , you will see that Resolution: is 120x120 dpi and dimensions are 5.42" Wide by 4.38" High.

If you want to create a new image (with the same Attributes as ours), just open one of ours in MSPaint, select Edit>Select All then right-click on the image and click Clear Selection. This will give you a blank sheet with the same Attributes as ours for you to create your new image on. Remember; when done, select File>Save As , give the image a new name and save it to your desktop (or the original image will be lost).

I have attached a generic image of your basic design, rendered in 3D... No opening mechanism is shown. It is hoped that 3D will allow greater clarity in our communication of what will (and will not) work for you. Please edit the attached as needed and use it as a basis for further definition and communication of your needs.

 

[cybertron]

nvn.

Here another sketch hpoefully to make clearer what i need.

The sketch is only the tubular square bar lifter.

What I need is a Mechanical Mechanism too attach too the small tubular bars on the lifter So when I Pull up on either side of any of the smaller bar the opposite lifts on its own at the same time. this sketch should make it more understandable too what i need.

Remember If I pull up on anyone of the smaller Tubular Bars the opposite side MUST lift on its own.

 

[tyroman]

The attached is my edit of the generic image. I have changed the short "tubes" to square tubes. The Articulation Limits are shown as ~100 degrees rather than 90 degrees. A Structural Limits ("no-go") volume has been added.

Unless we can find a way to communicate better using an image like this, I feel my contribution must end here.

 

[cybertron]

tyroman

I just drew my generic image on this thread too give a general understanding to what I need, my last sketch too this post dictates that. I didn't thing I needed to sketch a 3D image for anyone too understand what I need.AND my most resent generic image is ONLY! the tubular lifter.

In your 3d image you have the two smaller tubular bars and they are attached too the longer tubular bar. The 100dg angle you have with no articulation limts. OK. the Hinges you have will be Bracket hinges so as the smaller tubes swings it clears the top of the longer bar for rotation so it swings from 0-100dgs. If you took that pink PART out in your image then you have a 3D image of my tubular bar LIFTER generic image.

REMEMBER MY MOST RESENT GENERIC IMAGE IS (ONLY) THE LIFTER NOTHING MORE.

tyroman.
If your 3d image without the pink part (thats makes it confussing too me), represents my simple generic sketch then you have exactly the tubular lifter as in my sketched image.

But you have to understand NOW I NEED A MECHANICAL MECHANISM TOO LIFT-UP THE SMALLER TUBULAR BARS AS STATED IN MY MOST RESENT IMAGE AND POST.

Do you understand what I need now.

I came Here to this forum too get help on the (Mechanical Mechanism) for lifting the smaller tubular bars as stated in this thread AND in my sketches.


I already have the tubular bar lifter as a prototype I included A SIMPLE SKETCH OF the lifter in my first post to show what i needed and that IS A MECHANICAL MECHANISM WHICH ATTACHES TOO MY LIFTER. iF I DIDN'T INCLUDE THIS LIFTER ON THIS FORUM YOU WOULDN'T NO WHAT I NEEDED IT FOR.

IS THIS ANY CLEARER.

 

[tyroman]

cybertron

are you shouting? CAPS imply shouting.

 

[Danger]

How about a tie-rod and bell-crank system?
And can you please stop adding the extra 'o' in 'to'? 'Too' means 'excessive', which your 'o's are.

 

[nvn]

What I need is a mechanical mechanism to attach to the small tubular bars on the lifter, so when I pull up on either side of any of the smaller bars, the opposite side lifts on its own at the same time.

Yes, this is the sketch I attached in post 14. The mechanism shown in my post 14 sketch is such that when you lift one small bar, the opposite small bar rises.

Will I be able to lift either side of the small bars, so the opposite side lifts on its own?

Yes. You can lift either side, and the other side will rise.

What sort of linkage part are you using to attach together bar AB to BC, and BC to CD?

There are probably different methods for connecting linkage bar AB (and CD) to linkage bar BC. I envisioned that linkage bar AB (or CD) will be just a plain, flat bar, with a hole in each end.

And the linkage bars could perhaps be connected together with a clevis pin or shoulder bolt. Or, you could perhaps cut a slot into each end of linkage bar BC, thus making a clevis.

 

[cybertron]

How about a tie-rod and bell-crank system?
And can you please stop adding the extra 'o' in 'to'? 'Too' means 'excessive', which your 'o's are.

Sorry about that. I sometimes type fast and don't go back an edit it. Its a Habit.


What is a tie-rod and Bell-crank system? Please explain!

 

[cybertron]

cybertron

are you shouting? CAPS imply shouting.

No I'm not shouting? I type fast and i leave the CAPS on. I will try to close it off.

 

[cybertron]

tyroman.


Thanks for the advise on copying your image for edits.

I just edited the image as I think it should be.It is basicly the same as my generic image but
in 3d.

Now on to the Mechanical Mechanism.

Nvn. Mechanical Mechanism in sketch #14 seems like it may work, and i need it to be simple to make and his looks simple to construct, But it looks like its just rods linked together there's no indication of any force unpond the rods to pull one side up as it pushes against each other to pull the opposite side to rise it up.I just don't see that.He indicated it will, But i don't see how it will with no equal force on the rods.Example: Its like a swing when you push it momendum = force will pull that swing back in the opposite direction by pushing like a pendulum. I don't see this in the rods.


Whats your input and opinion on how this is going to work.

 

[cybertron]

Here the your image that i edit it didn't upload in my last post.O' i press the wrong button.

 

[nvn]

There's no indication of any force upon the rods to pull the opposite side up.

When you pull door A upward, it pulls linkage bar AB, which pulls linkage bar BC to the left, which pulls linkage bar CD. Therefore, linkage bar CD applies a pulling force to door D, causing door D to rise. If you now push door A downward, the reverse process occurs, causing door D to close.

Alternately, if you push or pull door D (instead of door A), the reverse process occurs, causing door A to rotate.

 

[tyroman]

The pink (a volume not a structure) indicates areas where the opening device structure can not be located... the space indicated on the attached sketch would show that the mechanical device is not allowed to extend into the space below the long 1" square tube (for example).

If we know the constraints on the mechanism (such as "no-go" areas) we can avoid guessing at what will work for you.

As to what a "bell crank" is, see the second attachment.

 

[cybertron]

The pink (a volume not a structure) indicates areas where the opening device structure can not be located... the space indicated on the attached sketch would show that the mechanical device is not allowed to extend into the space below the long 1" square tube (for example).

If we know the constraints on the mechanism (such as "no-go" areas) we can avoid guessing at what will work for you.

As to what a "bell crank" is, see the second attachment.

What do mean by ''no-go'' areas. Please indicate this in the 3d image so I could see what you are implying to, then i could reply back' to these constraints on the mechanism.

 

[cybertron]

nvn

In #14 must the linkages be connected with a tight fit, loose fit or dose it matter how tight these linkages must fit together.

Also I forgot to ask you.
When I close both of the small square bars on the Lifter to the closed position, will they be pulling against each other preventing the two small bars form closing to the 0-dg position. I can't have this happen, ''then the two lids that will be connected to the Lifter can't close.

The lifters function must beable to open and close with one bar assisting the other bar when opening and closing the two lids.
When one side of the small bar is pull up from the close position the opposite side starts lifting at the same time assisting the opposite side and rotates to any angle between zero degrees to 100 degrees. as the small bar gos back down and returns from 100dgs to 0dgs one bar will assist the other small bar down to the 0dgs close position.

 

[tyroman]

cybertron,

I'm just trying to figure out what your physical constraints are... in some of your posts, I get the idea that there are locations around the square tube assembly that are "off-limits" or "no-go" for the opening mechanism. For instance, if the bottom of the 1" square tube will be mounted on a concrete slab, then no part of the opening mechanism can extend below the 1" square tube. If that is the case, then the pink area in my sketch (below the 1" square tube) makes that constraint clear.

from your post #5:
"The rod you included will not work in that position. And the bottom part can't be used.
But it is close."

from your post #8:
"Close. Still bottom part will not work and that top piece can't be there"
and
"Much closer the bottom still wouldn't work in my application"

from your post #12:
"the mechanism will go through the sq tubing"

Your statement above in post #12 seems to say that the mechanism must be inside of the 1" square tube... is this true?

*****

Did my sketch of the bell crank help? Can you see a way for such a device to be used here?

 

[Danger]

Agreed; this is becoming quite frustrating. Cybertron, can you please tell us just exactly what the hell this thing is for? Knowing the end application makes it a lot easier to come up with a workable design. So far, it could be anything from a bar fridge to a missile silo.

 

[nvn]

cybertron: Regarding your post 33 questions, the linkages should be connected with a relatively tight fit, but must be free to rotate about the clevis pin centerline axis with little friction.

The lifters must be able to simultaneously rotate to the same angle, from 0 to 100 deg.

Both doors will close to 0 deg at the same time. In my post 14 very rough sketch (not to scale), it is intended, or hoped, that both doors will open to approximately the same angle simultaneously. You would need to create a design (on paper or CAD), designing and selecting the best possible locations for points A, B, C, and D, then draw the design exactly to scale to see how (if) it works for the chosen coordinate locations of points A through D.

 

[cybertron]

Agreed; this is becoming quite frustrating. Cybertron, can you please tell us just exactly what the hell this thing is for? Knowing the end application makes it a lot easier to come up with a workable design. So far, it could be anything from a bar fridge to a missile silo.

No its not a bar fridge. And I assure you It not a missile silo. Now THAT's Funny!

Its just a lifter for lifting two lids. This is only one part of three parts of the puzzle, But I already have two parts of the my system solved. the lifter is the second part that i already have designed from my simple sketch that i posted in the beinging of this thread and tyroman and nvn took my simple sketch and done a 3d image.The last part of the puzzle is the (Mechanical Mechanism) to be attach to the lifter, this is why I came to this forum for that help.

I see your point and frustration, But you're reading more into this (my help) then what is needed. Look at my simple sketch then look at tyromans its the same thing 'tyroman just make a 3d image of my simple lid lifter. I need a Mechanical Mechnism to be attach to the lifter to lift up the two smaller hinged tubular square bars to assist one another at the same time. As stated.

 

[cybertron]

Tyroman

I understand that you're try to figure the best why to help, and i appreicate everyones help.

Now i understand what you mean by "no go" being off limits and that pink area in your sketch becomes clear to where the mechanical mechanism can go on the lifter.And how the lifter will be mounted.

1.Your right . The lifter will be mount on a wooden board on top of a slab and no part of the opening Mechanical Mechanism can extend below the 1'' long square bottom tube.As made clear by the pink area in the 3d image.

from my post #5:
What I ment is the tubular frame of my lifter in that image is close, and YES the rod wiil not work or the bottom part, do to the constraint limits beyond the long square tube.


from my post #8
what I ment also the tubular frame; Right the rest of the system will not work do to the constraints below the pink area that's indicated in your 3d image.


from my post #12
YES. This statement that i stated is only (true) if a mechanism can be make to go through the tubing if it can be made and operate to lift the two small tubes to assist in lifting both sides. If there's no way that this can be done or operate, Then NO. Then is must be attach to the tubing as in NVN post #14. Tyroman do you think it could be made to BE put through the bottom of the 1'' square tubing to work in some way as in post #14.


As for the sketch you provided on the bell crank I really don't understand from your image what it is and how this think is surppose to work or if it can work in my application. Just don't know.

 

[nvn]

cybertron: The mechanism in my post 14 diagram is inside the square tubes. You stated this requirement in the first sentence of the third paragraph of post 12; and therefore, I posted my diagram in post 14. The only thing not inside the tubes is a portion of linkage bar AB. See the last sentence of post 16.

 

[tyroman]

cybertron,

Here is another try at the bell crank sketch...

Can You think of a way this mechanism would work?

 

[cybertron]

cybertron: The mechanism in my post 14 diagram is inside the square tubes. You stated this requirement in the first sentence of the third paragraph of post 12; and therefore, I posted my diagram in post 14. The only thing not inside the tubes is a portion of linkage bar AB. See the last sentence of post 16.

Nvn. Yes I did stated this requirement,that I want the Mechanial Mechanim inside the long 1'' square bottom tube then it gets attach to the smaller tubular tubes, I didn't realize this could be done or anyone on this forum understood what i was speaking about when I state this in my frist sketch that I posted.

I assumed that this diagram in post #14 that the mechnism is attach on the sq tubes not on the inside.
If you originally drawn diagram in post #14 for the mechanism to work on the inside then this changes the way the rods or bar of the mechanism is made to work and attaches too the two smaller 1'' square tubular bars do to the angle of rotation of how the smaller tubes will open and closes from Odgs-100dgs. I will try too show this in a re-edited of tyroman 3d image.


I'm thinking your diagram in post 14, that this Mechanism is attached on the outside of the long tube and the smaller tubes.I 'm getting confussed on how this Mechanism is being attached to the to these square tubes aqnd the rotation of angle if this mechanism is going to be attached on the inside of the longer tube and the smaller sq tubes.

 

[cybertron]

cybertron,

Here is another try at the bell crank sketch...

Can You think of a way this mechanism would work?

I don't think this will work. And I still don't understand how it functions,maybe this is way I can see this working. Are the long vertical lines the rods connected to the smaller tubes, is the bell crank a handle that you crank 360dgs to move it,how is this connected to the lifter.Is there a real picture of this device that you can show me.I just can't get how this functions.

 

[cybertron]

Nvn.

Enclosed is an edited 3d image.


The mechanism that will lift the two smaller sq tubes the rod linkages would have to change as i stated in my last post to you,unless I cut a slot as you stated in the top part of the longer bottom sq tube so the rod rotates to a fully 0dgs -100dgs.
This might be difficult to do without a grinder.

If you can make a more detailed diagram from the image i posted on how this will work if I don't use a grinder for slots in the bottom top part of the tube for the mechanism to rotate.

Can you make a more detailed diagram you can copie the image post then edit it.

 

[nvn]

Enclosed is an edited 3d image.

cybertron: I currently don't think this will work.

I'm getting confused on how the mechanism [in your post 14 diagram] is ... going to be attached on the inside of the long and short square tubes.

Keep rereading my posts (posts 16, 25, 30, and 36) to help you understand how the mechanism in my post 14 diagram works, and how it would be designed. This is the mechanism I currently recommended. I think you may come to understand it better if you keep studying and imagining the descriptions I have posted.

You will need basic tools to manufacture anything. If you do not have basic tools, then you will need to hire someone to cut the metal. No problem. But don't worry too much about this until you have first designed a workable mechanism, as I described in post 36. And see also posts 16, 25, and 30.

 

[tyroman]

cybertron,

Since it appears that the mechanism can be positioned on the outside of the lower bar, I have made the attached sketch to show a worm drive mechanism that might work. Also attached is a sketch based upon nvn's mechanism but using a rack and pinion scheme.

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[cybertron]

tyroman

The frist image of the mechanism you drawn connected to my tubular lifter in the 3d image
with the Hank crank and wrom gear is not really what I'm looking for.

Now The second image with the tandem rack & pinion that you drawn base on nvn mechanism attached to my tubular lifter, could be used.Its a mechanical mechanism and can be build with simple hand tools.

Also when the two smaller sq tubes are in the closed position will it lift without hardly any force if I lift one side by hand.There can't be any binding in the rack and gear system.


But I do have Questions.

Lifting function.
As I lift either the right or left small sq tube to open by hand the opposite side will assist to lift the other side at any rotation from 0dgs to 100dgs and when it closes to the 0dg position the two sq tubes will assist each other when closing the lids.

1.Frist the longer sq tube on my lifter is no higher then 1'' will this tandem rack system extend above that 1''; if it dose then the small sq tubes will not close to the 0dg closed position.How would you make this gear and rack system within the 1''depth of the longer sq tube.

2.This gear would have to be no bigger then 1/2'' dia is that possible to buy.

3.Where would I buy a standard rack system that can be used with a metal gear, assuming the gear will be metal.And There's no way I could make this gear or these rack bars.

4 Is this gear and rack system going to operate smoothly when it moves in either direction with such a small metal gear.

5.How thick sould the gear and the teeth on the gear be to operate within the rack bars and should the racks teeth be the same thickness as the gear teeth.

6.the Pivoting linkage bars that attach to the two shorter sq tubes at the connection this connection must rotate Yes or no.
I'm thing it has to rotate to acommendate for the angle of rotation and the same gos for where the linkage bar connect to each side of the rack bars.

Tyroman:I understand 98% how this mechanism will work but the 2% i don't get it this PIVOT CAGE.
Please explain to me what is the pivot cage what it is,what it dose,how its connected to the 1'' tube

 

[cybertron]

nvn.
I will read all your post again!

As for tools:
I do have all the basic tools to construct with; even some metal tools like hacksaws.
'But I don't have a grinder, as you stated.Or any metal mechine tools if needed.
Would I need any special metal cutting or drilling tools in making this mechanism in post #14.

If I need a grinder I can get one,will I really need it.yes or no.

 

[tyroman]

cybertron,

Can you say why "the Hank crank and wrom gear is not really what I'm looking for"?

The Worm/Worm Gear design will be easiest to motorize... it will NOT however, allow you to lift the doors by simply grabbing one and pulling it open. The hand crank (or a motor) would be the ONLY way to open or close the doors. Is this the reason it is "not really what I'm looking for"?

The Tandem Rack & Pinion design will NOT be easy to motorize.

In your very first post, you say;
"How can i make one of the 9'' bars lift as the other 9'' bar is being lifted by a motor."
In post #9, you say;
"one side will have a motor to lift one of the bars"
In post #12, you say;
"I will include a motor that will only assist with the weight of one side of the lid."
You refer to a motor in several of your other posts...

What about the motor? Is a motor still a part of your design?

***

As to your questions about the Tandem Rack & Pinion design;

"1.Frist the longer sq tube on my lifter is no higher then 1'' will this tandem rack system extend above that 1''; if it dose then the small sq tubes will not close to the 0dg closed position.How would you make this gear and rack system within the 1''depth of the longer sq tube."

Look closely at my sketch (use the magnifier if necessary). You will see that the entire Rack & Pinion mechanism (including the linkage bars) is drawn in Black (the only parts in Gray are those hidden by the Pinion Cage and the Rack guides). This means that the mechanism is mounted on the front (nearest to the viewer) side of the long square tube.

? Are the short square tubes wider than one inch?

If a mechanism which is attached to the front surface extends higher than the long tube, how would it interfere with the closing of the short tubes? I suspect that there are more "off-limits" spaces than you have told us about...

Please clarify the Off-Limits issue before we proceed. Use my sketch at post #21 to do this. (There is no need to label any parts... just draw pink lines to outline ALL no-go areas.)

***

As to your questions about the articulation of the various designs offered by nvn and myself; get some cardboard, stiff wire and some thumb-tacks and build yourself a 2-dimensional scale "mock-up" of the assembly (a 1" by 18" strip of cardboard would represent the square tube at the bottom, for example). Use the stiff wire to make the "linkages" and the tacks to function as hinges and linkage attachment points. Then experiment with your mock-up to convince yourself that a particular design can (or can not) be made to work.

***

PS; The pinion cage is simply a pair of brackets (attached to the front of the long 1" square tube) which will insure that the teeth on the two racks mesh with the teeth on the pinion. The rack guides are similar in design and purpose.

 

[cybertron]

Tyroman



There's Four reasons why the hand crank/worm gear will not work for me.

1.Safety I need to open the two lids by hand if something ever stops the motor from not functioning this way I could open and close the lids by hand.
2. Optional not to use a motor if I choose that option.
3.Security Don't want the need for just anybody to use the hand crank two lift these doors at free will.
4.TimeIt will take to long to crank open a door. Then by opening by hand 2secs tops.

So I need this Mechanism to work By hand as i lift one side the oppsite side opens the other side with the assistance of the mechanism as stated in thread. But with motor assist.

Yes a motor is part of my Design as I stated. ''But only if I choose that option.And only assist with the weight of one side of the lid.


As to the off limits.
Enclosed 3d image.

The black arrows indicates the Pink Linesthat represent the outside and the inside as well as the depth of the long sq 1'' tube. nothing changes as of the long tube, BUT the rack system guides might interfer with the closing and opening of the smaller tubes. Until I construct this system and the materials i use ''will'' I know if the rack guides are going to interfer with the the opening and closing of the shorter sq tubes.The longer tube is only 1'' square that's not much room to attach the gear and rack guides.So if the guides for the rack system is higher then the long bottom tube it could interfer with opening and closing of the smaller tube.

All tubing is 1'' square.

Please answer Questions 3,5, in post #46

Would I beable to use a 1'' gear because the longer sq tube is only 1'' or would i need to
use a gear 1/2''.

I do see that this gear and rack system is on the outside of the sq tube facing towards the viewer.

Can this mechanism be make to work by hand as i wanted in this thread plus a motor as
an option.I do not want a crank device.

 

[tyroman]

cybertron,

I do not follow your logic on the reasons a worm drive will not work for you;

1. The shaft of a motor can be turned by hand when it is off. Only if the bearings in the motor have "locked-up" will this not be the case... but a locked-up motor attached to ANY mechanism will prevent operation of the mechanism.
2. A decision NOT to attach a motor will not affect the operation of the worm drive.
3. A person who is able to turn a crank would be unable to lift a door?
4. The time to open the door with the worm drive is entirely determined by the coarsness (threads per inch) of the worm and worm gear - very coarse = few turns of the crank.

OK, there will be a motor.

You say;
"Yes a motor is part of my Design as I stated. ''But only if I choose that option.And only assist with the weight of one side of the lid."

If the lids are connected by the opening mechanism, how will the motor "only assist with the weight of one side of the lid"? The force applied to either door (by hand or by a motor) will have to be sufficient to raise BOTH lids since they are connected.

As to your attached sketch;
In your off-limits sketch... are you showing that no part of the mechanism may be located within the Articulation Limits (Red Lines) of the short square tubes? If so, this goes without saying.

I have attached a sketch to show the Structural Limits as I understand them. The "End View" may help us define the space available. The sketch also shows the wooden base as a Structure (in Green), which I assume will allow some of the mechanism to extend below the long square tube if necessary. The concrete slab is shown in Pink (the extent of this slab can be ignored as long as it is all lower than the wooden base).

A second sketch below shows a simplified, End-On view of the design with a possible solution to the 1" limit on the height of the mechanism. The plate shown would be attached to the side of the long 1" tube (with spacers if necessary) and would allow more room for attachment of the mechanism. See what you think.

Your other questions have a lot to do with how heavy the doors are and other variables which have yet to be defined... Your options may be somewhat limited by hardware availability in your location. Try Google. If you have a good "mechanical sense" you may find something which can be "made to work".

For articulation questions, see my suggestions at post #48.

Your last question;
"Can this mechanism be make to work by hand as i wanted in this thread plus a motor as an option."
Yes. The pinion gear could be splined or keyed to the motor shaft (with the motor mounted on-axis with the pinion) or the motor could be equipped with a separate gear which engages teeth on one of the racks at a right angle (perpendicular). (With the worm-drive, the motor would be mounted and connected on-axis with the worm shaft at the end opposite the hand crank.)