Newscientist claims machine violates 2nd law of thermodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around a claim made by New Scientist regarding a machine that allegedly violates the second law of thermodynamics. Participants explore the implications of this claim, the concept of Maxwell's demon, and the role of external energy sources in the process. The conversation touches on theoretical interpretations, the credibility of the publication, and the relevance of the experiment to fields like quantum computing.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the machine does not violate the second law because it uses an external power source to alter internal equilibrium.
  • Another participant questions the definition of "demon" in this context, indicating a lack of familiarity with the concept.
  • A participant references Maxwell's demon as a historical interpretation of a mechanism related to thermodynamics, suggesting that the lasers in the experiment serve this role.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the claims made in the New Scientist article, with one stating that the article misleads readers despite possibly getting the facts right in the printed version.
  • Another participant mentions a science fiction reference that discusses defeating the second law, implying that such ideas have been explored in literature.
  • One participant emphasizes the importance of reading the full article, noting that it clarifies that the second law is not violated due to energy input from lasers.
  • Concerns are raised about the reliability of popular science journals, with some participants expressing reluctance to pay for subscriptions to such publications.
  • A participant identifies a recent paper related to the topic, indicating that the discussion is grounded in current research.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the claims made by New Scientist, with some asserting that the second law is upheld while others remain skeptical of the publication's reliability. The discussion reflects multiple competing interpretations and does not reach a consensus.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the potential for misleading information in popular science articles and the need for careful reading of the original research papers to understand the claims fully. There is also an acknowledgment of the historical context of Maxwell's demon and its implications for thermodynamics.

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http://www.newscientist.com/channel...ed-with-lasers.html?feedId=online-news_rss20"



"The demon appears to bring order to chaos without expending energy, violating the second law of thermodynamics. "

So correct me if I am wrong, but it wouldn't violate the 2nd law because an external powersource is used to change the internal equilibrium. It seems simple to me but I keep thinking I must be missing something since it is in a printed article. What is your take on this one?



Cheers,
Medline
 
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Sorry if this is common knowledge, but what in the heck is a demon, I'm assuming not a minion of hell!
 
I think that was his 19th century interpretation of a mechanism that he could not imagine. In this case the "demon" would be the lasers.
 
Ok so I should have done a bit more research on this. Here is a better link about this contraption. After reading this, it becomes clear that no laws are broken in the process. I was caught off guard by such bold claims coming from a publication that pretends to be scientific. Either way, it is a neat experiment and it appears that it could have some significant practical use (quantum computing).

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/33454/title/Left_in_the_cold_"
 
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There are many bold, unsupported assertions ponied up on this forum. There are also some very bright people here who autopsy every corpse.
 
L. Niven, "Unfinished Story", F&SF, December 1969, describes an approach to defeating the 2nd law of thermodynamics, and using a demon no less! F&SF is, without a doubt, a better reference than New Scientist.
 
You should read the full article. There they DO clearly state (at least in the printed version of the ournal) that the 2nd law is NOT violated since energy is added to the system by the lasers.
 
Which full article -- the one in Science or the one in New Scientist? The New Scientist article is a subscription article, and I am not paying. That once great journal has fallen immensely. If they got it right this time, good for them. I'm still not paying.
 
  • #10
D H said:
Which full article -- the one in Science or the one in New Scientist? The New Scientist article is a subscription article, and I am not paying. That once great journal has fallen immensely. If they got it right this time, good for them. I'm still not paying.

New Scientist.
Pop-Sci journals are by definition unreliable (it is hard to see how they could not be), but at least in the printed article they got the facts right this time. Although I agree that the free introduction to the article on their website is misleading.
 
  • #11
The New Scientist article is presumably referring to this recent paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.1585. It was submitted to PRL in February, and published on 20th June as Phys. Rev. Lett. 100, 240407 (2008). Thus, since this is a published paper, I'm moving this thread to the Physics forums.
 
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