No military option against the Iranian nuclear program

[Count Iblis]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1242212417034&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull"

 

[drankin]

The stakes are too high not consider a military option.

 

[ExactlySolved]

The stakes are too high not consider a military option.

The stakes might be high for israel, but we have given them more than enough support for them to defend themselves. Free Palestine!

 

[russ_watters]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1242212417034&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull"

As if he actually has that power?

 

[russ_watters]

The stakes might be high for israel, but we have given them more than enough support for them to defend themselves.

How, precisely, do you propose they defend themselves from a nuclear bomb?

 

[skeptic2]

How, precisely, do you propose they defend themselves from a nuclear bomb?

A preemptory strike? But then who is the aggressor?

 

[turbo]

A military strike on Iran would be a wonderful way to drum up support for radical Muslim groups and de-stabilize the theocratic government there. Unrest would certainly spread to bordering states, most likely along ethnic lines, causing no end of trouble for all the governments in the region.

If Israel wants a region-wide conflagration, they should be forced to go it alone and take the consequences. The US should immediately withdraw from the region in that case - there is no need for us to sacrifice our brave service-members to the political/military adventurism of a state that has been sucking up our taxpayer dollars for many decades. BTW, why is Israel not threatened by Pakistan, which does have nuclear weapons? You don't need to have long-range missiles to be a nuclear threat. A foreign-flagged cargo ship could dock in an Israeli port with some pretty potent nuclear weapons that don't have to be compact enough to fit on a missile. The Israeli government always needs to have a proximate threat, so they can create a sense of urgency in dealing with it and keep Israeli citizens fearful and obedient.

 

[tiny-tim]

Pakistan not a threat to Israel

BTW, why is Israel not threatened by Pakistan, which does have nuclear weapons?

Because Pakistan, unlike Iran, does not hate Israel, does not want to eliminate Israel from the map, and does not give military and financial support to Hamas or Hizbollah.

 

[mheslep]

...BTW, why is Israel not threatened by Pakistan, which does have nuclear weapons? ...

Surely Israel would say they are threatened by Pakistani nuclear weapons, as is everyone else, but not to the immediate degree that a nuclear Iran would pose. Why the difference? That would be because Pakistan does not a) sponsor and control large scale guerilla military organizations like Hezbollah that openly state they want to destroy Israel, and b) Pakistan's president does not make statements that "denies the Holocaust and threatens to wipe Israel off the map" - our President about Iran's president.

 

[mheslep]

Because Pakistan, unlike Iran, does not hate Israel, does not want to eliminate Israel from the map, and does not give military and financial support to Hamas or Hizbollah.

Scooped me! Pakistan no doubt has made plenty of critical, even hateful(?), statements about Israeli policy.

 

[turbo]

I think you guys are missing "the big picture". An Israeli strike on Iran will empower radical Muslim factions all over the region. Pakistan's government is already in trouble, and could easily be de-stabilized by a resurgent Taliban. The army and security forces in that country are already co-operating with rebels in rural areas. Want the Taliban and their associates to gain control of Pakistan's nukes?

 

[Gokul43201]

BTW, why is Israel not threatened by Pakistan, which does have nuclear weapons?

Israel and Pakistan have had a much less adversarial relationship since the '70s and '80s, when Israel supplied and ran guns to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. Pakistani president Zia ul-Haq is noted for having famously accepted Israel's help so long as the crates didn't have a "<bleeping> Star of David" on them ("quoting" from Charlie Wilson's War). The ISI and Mossad have reportedly been sharing intelligence since at least that time. And in recent years, Musharraf has significantly dialed down the rhetoric against Israel and neither Gilani nor Zardari seem likely to ramp it up again.

Here's an article on Israel-Pakistan relations written by Mossad veteran and professor, Shmuel Bar:
http://www.bitterlemons-international.org/previous.php?opt=1&id=103#418

Pakistan's nuclear capability, along with its radical Islamic body politic and involvement in encouraging radicalism, should have placed it high on Israel's list of potential strategic threats. However, even media references to the Pakistani nuclear program as the "Islamic bomb" did not affect Israel's basic policy: to view Pakistan more as a potential interlocutor than as a potential threat. Pakistan itself clarified on various occasions and at various levels that its nuclear capability is not intended to serve any but its own national security.

As for the Taliban gaining power in Pakistan ... if that happens Israel is hardly the only or even first place that needs to start worrying.

 

[mheslep]

I reject the notion that the West/Israel should affect some kind of neutrality between it and the islamo-fascists, because if someone chooses to fight against them the fascists will have grievances and be empowered. They already have grievances. They're aggrieved when they see an unveiled woman, they're aggrieved when homosexuals and Jews are tolerated. I am not signing on to any big picture that claims the moral high ground lies in neutrality with all of that.

 

[ExactlySolved]

How, precisely, do you propose they defend themselves from a nuclear bomb?

Diplomatic concessions, mutual self-assured destruction proclamations, and various other techniques that are modernized versions of what the USA used to defend itself against the nuclear bombs in the USSR. Really it should not be a concern for the US, anymore than 'how will Iran protect itself from Israel's nuclear bombs?'

The Iranians are not anti-semetic: they don't hate jews; they are anti-zionist: they don't believe that the modern state of Israel should exist.

I look at the modern history of the state of Israel, and I am in agreement with the Iranians on this issue: the modern state of israel should not exist, I believe its existence is blatantly anti-moral.

I really like both Judaism and Islam, and I think that after WW2 the world had something of a moral obligation to help jewish people, but displacing the Palestinians to create a militant state which receives an inordinate amount of aid from the US was a bad idea, in moral and practical terms. News flash: radical islamist are mostly furious over US support for Israel, not over our decadent lifestyles as the media often claims.

Ironically, I think it would be worth incurring the wrath of terrorist to help the palestinians, and so I consider a double-mistake to support Israel the way we do. Going to war on their behalf would be horrible, the most morally despicable US war of all time (at least in Vietnam and Iraq we were trying to help the right side, even if we did more harm than good as usually happens in war).

Also, I'm very open to moral arguments in favor of Israel's existence, in fact looking at the posts in this thread I can't help but feel I am missing some information. Please teach me why it is a good idea to support Israel.

 

[russ_watters]

A preemptory strike? But then who is the aggressor?

What is your point?

 

[russ_watters]

Diplomatic concessions...

The quote I responded to implied you were talking about military support.

 

[ExactlySolved]

Diplomatc Concessions...

The quote I responded to implied you were talking about military support.

I meant that Israel could do the diplomatic thing and agree to disolve their state.

 

[tiny-tim]

Iranian antisemitism and holocaust denial

The Iranians are not anti-semetic: they don't hate jews; they are anti-zionist: they don't believe that the modern state of Israel should exist.

The Iranians have antisemitic media, classic-style antisemitic cartoons, and a government that sponsors holocaust denial.

And their belief that the modern state of Israel, unlike any other modern state, should cease to exist is simply racist.

(Even the Arab League now accept that Israel should exist)

 

[Gokul43201]

The Iranians have antisemitic media, classic-style antisemitic cartoons, and a government that sponsors holocaust denial.

And their belief that the modern state of Israel, unlike any other modern state, should cease to exist is simply racist.

I agree with the statements made in the first sentence but not that made in the second (well, it's just not true). Belief that a nation (rather than its people) ought to cease existing is not racist. Much of the US in the 60s and 70s had been hoping and working towards the eradication of the Soviet Union (the beef was with Communism, not the Russians, just as the issue here may be with Zionism rather than with Jews). Moreover, the "unlike any other state" clause is factually incorrect. Ahmadinejad has repeatedly thrown America into the list of countries that ought to cease existing (list=US, Israel), including in the speech where he fantasized that Israel be removed from the pages of history/face of earth. And "death to America" is hardly an unheard of phrase in Iran. Given that, I would say that the only evidence for anti-Semitism lies in the Holocaust denial and the cartoons (most of which - from my experience - are anti-Zionist, but some are certainly anti-Jew).

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Also, I'm very open to moral arguments in favor of Israel's existence, in fact looking at the posts in this thread I can't help but feel I am missing some information. Please teach me why it is a good idea to support Israel.

There have been jews in that region for centuries, if not longer as they claim. European jews aswell. They were oppressed and treated as second class citizens the majority of that time. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire the brits and french gave jews a say in the government. After that point there were only more and more violent clashes between arabs and jews because the arabs were not happy with the jews holding political power. When the jews fleeing persecution by Nazis in europe were denied immigration to palestine the plalestinian jews revolted and helped them immigrate illegally. The mass exodus was the last straw for the arabs, fearing a jewish majority, and civil war broke out. The jews finished the fight and declared themselves a sovereign nation which was immediately invaded. The Israelis then pushed their enemies back and took yet more territory and have since been using it as a buffer zone between themselves and their enemies. Its a long messy story and I am sure that jews attacked arabs as arabs attacked jews but really I see nothing particularly immoral about the manner in which Israel came about. Perhaps you can point it out to me.

 

[Count Iblis]

From the article: I'm comfortable with an endless string of temporary setbacks.

The first strike would be possible because Iran's nuclear installations are under IAEA inspections, therefore everyone knows the exact locations of these installations. After an attack, Iran will withdraw from the NPT and then there would be no easily accessible information about the precise location of their nuclear installations.

 

[tiny-tim]

I agree with the statements made in the first sentence but not that made in the second (well, it's just not true). Belief that a nation (rather than its people) ought to cease existing is not racist.

Of course it is.

Much of the US in the 60s and 70s had been hoping and working towards the eradication of the Soviet Union …

Oh come off it …

Iran doesn't just want a change in the electoral system, it wants either for the Jews to leave Israel, or for Israel to absorbed into a larger country.

The US never wanted the Russians (and other ethnic groups) to leave the USSR, nor for the USSR to be absorbed into some Greater Asian Republic.

… (the beef was with Communism, not the Russians, just as the issue here may be with Zionism rather than with Jews).

Zionism is Jewish nationalism …

how is being against Jewish nationalism not racist?

And how is being against Jewish nationalism not having an issue with Jews?

Ahmadinejad has repeatedly thrown America into the list of countries that ought to cease existing (list=US, Israel) …

Googled, and found nothing … when and where has he said (repeatedly) that America should cease to exist?

 

[Count Iblis]

As if he actually has that power?

If the IAF cannot overfly Iraq then it will be difficult to atack Iran. James Baker told on CNN a few weeks ago that Bush refused Olmert the codes necessary for safely overflying Iraq.

 

[Count Iblis]

According to an old UN reslution Zionism was racism. The US insisted the UN scrap that resolution in exchange for them getting involved in the peace process.

 

[Gokul43201]

They already have grievances. They're aggrieved when they see an unveiled woman, they're aggrieved when homosexuals and Jews are tolerated. I am not signing on to any big picture that claims the moral high ground lies in neutrality with all of that.

You could just as well be describing the Saudi government here.

PS: Parade recently released the 2009 version of their Worst Dictators series; Abdullah is right up there again.
http://www.parade.com/dictators/2009/ 1. Robert Mugabe, Zimbabwe

2. Omar Al-Bashir, Sudan

3. Kim Jong-Il, North Korea

4. Than Shwe, Myanmar

5. King Abdullah, Saudi Arabia

6. Hu Jintao, China

7. Sayyid Ali Khamenei, Iran

8. Isayas Afewerki, Eritrea

9. G. Berdymuhammedov, Turkmenistan

10. Muammar al-Qaddafi, Libya

 

[Gokul43201]

Of course it is.

Thanks for the erudite argument. My response: of course it isn't.

Oh come off it …

Iran doesn't just want a change in the electoral system, it wants either for the Jews to leave Israel, or for Israel to absorbed into a larger country.

The US never wanted the Russians (and other ethnic groups) to leave the USSR, nor for the USSR to be absorbed into some Greater Asian Republic.

They were might pleased that it was broken down into several smaller states. Same difference (wanting the state to lose its political and military influence).

Zionism is Jewish nationalism …

how is being against Jewish nationalism not racist?

And how is being against Jewish nationalism not having an issue with Jews?

It is not. You can most certainly oppose the religious/social/political philosophy of a group of people without holding a bigotry against the people themselves. You seem to have lost track of what racism needs to be about (a race of people, not their political identity).

Googled, and found nothing … when and where has he said (repeatedly) that America should cease to exist?

What are you winking at?

I see you have chosen to ignore one half of the argument that refutes your claim but nevertheless, here's the most well-known instance:

...Ahmadinejad said, "To those who doubt, to those who ask is it possible, or those who do not believe, I say accomplishment of a world without America and Israel is both possible and feasible."

To a cheering audience that at several points erupted with chants of "death to Israel, death to America, death to England"...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GJ28Ak03.html

And here's the more recent one that I remember making the news:

Iran's president said on Monday Israel would soon disappear off the map and that the "satanic power" of the United States faced destruction, in his latest verbal attack on the Islamic Republic's arch-enemies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0261250620080603

You're really confused by an assertion that Ahmadinejad has repeatedly talked about the destruction of America?

 

[tiny-tim]

UN antisemitisim

According to an old UN reslution Zionism was racism. The US insisted the UN scrap that resolution in exchange for them getting involved in the peace process.

(That was a UN General Assembly Resolution, 3379, of 1975).

The UN General Assembly, and bodies answering to it, have a long history of antisemitism, including that infamous "Zionism is racism" resolution, the Durban Conference, and the recent "Durban II Conference", with Ahmadinejad as its keynote speaker.

 

[Count Iblis]

When it comes to the Mid East, the West will weigh the interests of Israel more heavily than the interests of other countries. So, if Israel is now ambiguous on whether or not they will go for the two state solution, it is not really a big deal. But he fact that Hamas has not recognized Israel is a big deal.


The fact that Israel continues to occupy the West Bank is not a big deal. If Iran suggests a one state solution using fiery rhetoric that can be misinterpreted to mean literally mean "destroying Israel", this is seen to be unacceptable.


While the West does care about the interests of the Palestinians and wants to see peace in the region, it seems to me that when it comes to sovereign rights, the West only looks at this from the Israeli point of view. So, we are then only sensitive to any infringement of the Israeli sovereign rights, like the right to be recognized as anindependent state, the right to defend the state against aggression.


The fact that Israel infringes on similar rights the Palestinians have is not considered. So, while we do consider the inconvenience Palestionans face when having to wait at roadblocks, we don't also take the view that, in principle the Palestinians do have the right to resist the occupation. We are quick to point to the existence of a peace process to shut down any discussion of whether or not a resistance against the occupation is legitimate.


This also explains the position the West takes regarding the Iranian nuclear program. The West, lacking any consideration of sovereign rights other than those of Israel, simply does not appreciate the fact that banning Iran from using their own uranium to make fuel for their own powerplants is a grave violation of Iranian sovereign rights that cannot be justified on any reasonable grounds.


The West only considers the potential threat to Israel. If Iran were to develop an indiginous enrichment capabability then that would already be a treat, even if it is under a very strict inspections regime, simply because Iran could theoretically decide to leave the NPT and make nuclear weapons.


Then since Israel has the right to live in peace and, as a sovereign nation, has the right to defend itself, also against potential future threats, Israeli statements about attacking Iran are not considered to be a big deal by the West because the violation of Iranian sovereignity is not taken into account at all.


If we had some notion of the fact that Iran is a sovereign country too, we wouldn't have considered the incentives deal that Iran has rejected. Instead we would have negotiated more inspections of the Iranian nuclear activities in exchange for lifting sanctions.


To Iranians statements from the West like: "Iran does not need nuclear power", "Iran's rejecton of the incentives deal proves that they are only interested in making nuclear weapons", etc. etc. are as insulting as any anti-Israel statements are to Israelis.

 

[tiny-tim]

Ahmadinejad has repeatedly thrown America into the list of countries that ought to cease existing

And here's the more recent one that I remember making the news:

Iran's president said on Monday Israel would soon disappear off the map and that the "satanic power" of the United States faced destruction, in his latest verbal attack on the Islamic Republic's arch-enemies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0261250620080603

Well, that (from 2008) doesn't help you …

that's not calling or hoping for the destruction of America, but just of its international power.

(btw, that Reuters report continues … "Turning to the United States, Ahmadinejad said the era of decline and destruction of its "satanic power" had begun.")

… here's the most well-known instance:

...Ahmadinejad said, "To those who doubt, to those who ask is it possible, or those who do not believe, I say accomplishment of a world without America and Israel is both possible and feasible."

To a cheering audience that at several points erupted with chants of "death to Israel, death to America, death to England"...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GJ28Ak03.html

(I think it's the only instance )

The fuller, and authoritative, version of this 2005 speech, published by the Iranian Students News Agency (translated at http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=sd&ID=SP101305&Page=archives#_edn1)
(which btw, shows your quotation slightly differently …

They [ask]: 'Is it possible for us to witness a world without America and Zionism?' But you had best know that this slogan and this goal are attainable, and surely can be achieved…

clarifies this by showing him adding, a few sentences later…

However, our nation stood firm, and by now we have, for 27 years, been living without a government dependent on America. Imam [Khomeni] said: 'The rule of the East [U.S.S.R.] and of the West [U.S.] should be ended.' But the weak people who saw only the tiny world near them did not believe it.

So Ahmadinejad's words "without America" seem to mean "without American influence or power", not "without America's existence".

(And even with your interpretation, it was in 2005, and has never been repeated, so hardly qualifies as "repeatedly")​

 

[ExactlySolved]

There have been jews in that region for centuries, if not longer as they claim. European jews aswell. They were oppressed and treated as second class citizens the majority of that time.

I agree with you so far.

After the fall of the Ottoman Empire the brits and french gave jews a say in the government. After that point there were only more and more violent clashes between arabs and jews because the arabs were not happy with the jews holding political power.

The British gave the Jews more than political power, the Balfour Declaration of 1917 stated that the British Government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

When the jews fleeing persecution by Nazis in europe were denied immigration to palestine the plalestinian jews revolted and helped them immigrate illegally.

It was not very moral for hundreds of thousands of Jews to illegally emmigrate to Palestine, even if they were WW2 refugees.

The mass exodus was the last straw for the arabs, fearing a jewish majority, and civil war broke out. The jews finished the fight and declared themselves a sovereign nation which was immediately invaded.

The UN, with major support from the USA, declared Israel to be a sovereign nation. The Brits sided with the Arabs. Why such a difference between British and American opinion? I don't know the answer to this question.

The Israelis then pushed their enemies back and took yet more territory and have since been using it as a buffer zone between themselves and their enemies. Its a long messy story and I am sure that jews attacked arabs as arabs attacked jews but really I see nothing particularly immoral about the manner in which Israel came about. Perhaps you can point it out to me.

The British wanted to help the Jews live in Palestine peacefully, coexisting with the established Arab state, but the Jews eventually revolted against the British in Palestine because they wanted their own state. They exploited the British generosity for 25 years and then dumped them when they became strong enough to fight the Arabs.

A long mess about enemies killing enemies is not immoral, but right now Israel receives more support from the USA than does nay other country. Israel is a state that would never have been created without western intervention, and now it is being sustained (to a larger degree than any other state) by western intervention. In the abscence of further evidence I am forced to conclude that the western intervention arises from anti-arab religious and racial prejudice in the west. I implore someone else to give me a more benign explanation for why the US supports Israel.