Nuclear Effect versus Atomic Effect

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on clarifying the terms "nuclear effect" and "atomic effect" within the context of physics. Participants explore the distinctions between atomic physics, which encompasses the entire atom including the nucleus and electrons, and nuclear physics, which is concerned solely with atomic nuclei. The conversation includes examples such as alpha decay and K-capture to illustrate these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that "nuclear effect" refers specifically to phenomena involving only the nucleus, while "atomic effect" includes the entire atom, both nuclei and electrons.
  • One participant suggests that the classification of effects, such as alpha particle emission, may depend on the specific aspect of decay being considered, indicating a need for a broader view of the atom in certain contexts.
  • Another participant raises the point that K-capture could be seen as an atomic effect due to its dependence on the relationship between the atom and its electrons.
  • There is mention of specific decay modes, such as electron capture and positron emission, with references to their classification as either nuclear or atomic effects based on their definitions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions and classifications of nuclear and atomic effects, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing interpretations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the definitions may depend on the context of the effects being discussed, and there are unresolved aspects regarding the implications of electron involvement in nuclear processes.

Fusillade
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I'm trying to clarify the terms "nuclear effect" and "atomic effect".

Due to the synonymous use of nuclear and atomic in the English language, the two are often viewed as being the same (as they were when I was in school); however during my current research, I learned that there is a difference such that atomic physics deals with the study of the atom including its nucleus and electrons and nuclear physics deals with the study of only the atomic nuclei.

As a result, can I use those definitions to determine if something is classified as a nuclear effect or an atomic effect?

For instance, is the emission of an alpha particle a nuclear effect or an atomic effect? The emission occurs at the nucleus but wouldn't you need to view the element as a whole to fully understand the effects?
 
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Fusillade said:
I'm trying to clarify the terms "nuclear effect" and "atomic effect".

Due to the synonymous use of nuclear and atomic in the English language, the two are often viewed as being the same (as they were when I was in school); however during my current research, I learned that there is a difference such that atomic physics deals with the study of the atom including its nucleus and electrons and nuclear physics deals with the study of only the atomic nuclei.

As a result, can I use those definitions to determine if something is classified as a nuclear effect or an atomic effect?

For instance, is the emission of an alpha particle a nuclear effect or an atomic effect? The emission occurs at the nucleus but wouldn't you need to view the element as a whole to fully understand the effects?

It depends on the alpha decay effect you are interested in. If it is only the alpha decay rate, you can forget about the atomic electrons. If you calculate the ionisation probability of a decayed atom, you need the whole atom description.
There are also "nuclear" events occurring only in presence of atomic electrons, like K-capture (the lowest orbit electron is captured with the nucleus proton to become a neutron).

Bob.
 
Bob_for_short said:
It depends on the alpha decay effect you are interested in. If it is only the alpha decay rate, you can forget about the atomic electrons. If you calculate the ionisation probability of a decayed atom, you need the whole atom description.
There are also "nuclear" events occurring only in presence of atomic electrons, like K-capture (the lowest orbit electron is captured with the nucleus proton to become a neutron).

Bob.

Can't K-capture be the result of an atoms relationship with other atoms resulting in an atomic effect?

Wikipedia said:
If the energy difference between the parent atom and the daughter atom is less than 1.022 MeV, positron emission is forbidden and electron capture is the sole decay mode. For example, Rubidium-83 will decay to Krypton-83 solely by electron capture (the energy difference is about 0.9 MeV).

How can I define "nuclear effect" and "atomic effect" in a manner in which will eliminate any confusion as to the difference between the two?
 
nuclear effect - dealing ONLY with the nucleus(note that it doesn't deal with ORBITING electrons)
atomic effect - dealing with the ENTIRE atom both nuclei and electrons
in the quote from wikipedia, electron capture is considered an atomic effect and positron/electron emission(beta decay) is considered a nuclear effect
 

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