Obama's speech on education banned from schools

AI Thread Summary
President Obama's upcoming speech on education has sparked controversy, with some parents and conservatives accusing him of attempting to "brainwash" children by promoting the importance of staying in school. The Department of Education is encouraging schools to watch the speech and engage in related classroom discussions, but critics argue it lacks room for healthy debate and could pressure students to align with the President's views. Concerns have also been raised about the potential for the speech to serve as propaganda rather than a straightforward motivational message. Despite the backlash, many believe that emphasizing education is crucial and that parents should participate in the discussion to better understand the speech's content. The debate highlights broader tensions regarding educational policy and political messaging in schools.
  • #51
If you want to argue that no education at all is better than being educated in the current system, then go start a thread on the topic, and stop derailing this one.
 
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  • #52
Hurkyl said:
If you want to argue that no education at all is better than being educated in the current system, then go start a thread on the topic, and stop derailing this one.

I did not say no education at all is better than the current form of education, I just think there are either serious reforms that need to be made in our public education system if public schools are going produce better results for their students, or students should seek alternatives options to public school(homeschooling, voucher, charter, whatever...) ; But giving a speech in front of 300 or so students will not improve the quality of education the students are receiving; they haven't inspired students to do better for the last 50 years and the current
speech that obama will present to students will not likely inspired them to perform better in school now; Seriously , when have speeches been an effective force in motivating people to perform better in school or in their careers; Do you remember the speech on education the speaker at your high school and college graduation or whatever special ceremony/occassion was taking place?

Instead of lecturing the kids (lecture which they will probably forget,for students retain 2 percent of lectures), he should asked them what they think of the education they are receiving in the public school system, and then he should asked the students about their dissatisfaction with some areas of the public school system and asked the students some of there suggestions on how public school can be improved;
 
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  • #53
Hurkyl said:
Erm... so the lesson is we should never be wary of government, just in case it turns out it's all okay?
Surely you can come up with a better plan than that? I contend should always be wary of government, but it would be nice if we could avoid getting riled up over completely unfounded concerns. That would save us a lot of hassle, our chasing imaginary WMD over in Iraq being one notable example.
 
  • #54
noblegas said:
The liberal media is a fiction? Are you serious? Are you aware that 90 percent of journalists considered themselves democratic?(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19113485) Have you been watching MSNBC lately ?; They don't have any news reporters on their channel, just a bunch of leftist pundits who try to portray one political viewpoint in each of their showsl

Yes, the liberal media is fiction. Most news channels will show both view points and not bash on the president because they don't believe in his policies. The only news station that does that is Fox News. They are clearly out to get Obama at any costs, even if he does something right. I have yet to see any other news station promote Obama's police as strong as Fox News bashes him. Labeling most of the media Liberal for showing both view points without promoting an agenda is propaganda. It's fear mongering created entirely by Fox News.
 
  • #55
Wax said:
Yes, the liberal media is fiction. Most news channels will show both view points and not bash on the president because they don't believe in his policies. The only news station that does that is Fox News. They are clearly out to get Obama at any costs, even if he does something right. I have yet to see any other news station promote Obama's police as strong as Fox News bashes him. Labeling most of the media Liberal for showing both view points without promoting an agenda is propaganda. It's fear mongering created entirely by Fox News.

I did not admit that Fox news was not bias; The bias of MSNBC is just not acknowledge that much as Fox news; Janeane Garofalo was on Keith olbermann show and she labeled all the protesters at the tea rally that took place in April-May as "stupid rednecks who hate that a black man is president" and Keith Olbermann did not call her out for her remark ; One of the news anchors on msnbc did something sleazy and tried to portrayed that black guy who carried the gun at the healthcare rally as an angry white racist by not showing all of his body (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/19/unreal-msnbc-edits-clip-of-man-with-gun-at-obama-rally-to-support-racism-narrative/); Both msnbc and Fox news are politically slanted on opposites sides of the political spectrum; At least cnn makes an effort to try be present both political viewpoints; They made a bad move by firing paula zahn though ;
 
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  • #56
noblegas said:
I did not admit that Fox news was not bias; The bias of MSNBC is just not acknowledge that much as Fox news; Janeane Garofalo was on Keith olbermann show and she labeled all the protesters at the tea rally that took place in April-May as "stupid rednecks who hate that a black man is president" and Keith Olbermann did not call her out for her remark ; One of the news anchors on msnbc did something sleazy and tried to portrayed that black guy who carried the gun at the healthcare rally as an angry white racist by not showing all of his body (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/19/unreal-msnbc-edits-clip-of-man-with-gun-at-obama-rally-to-support-racism-narrative/); Both msnbc and Fox news are politically slanted on opposites sides of the political spectrum; At least cnn makes an effort to try be present both political viewpoints; They made a bad move by firing paula zahn though ;

Your link didn't work.
 
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  • #57
noblegas said:
... Instead of lecturing the kids ...
Instead of derailing this thread, you should start a new thread.
 
  • #58
kyleb said:
if we could avoid getting riled up over completely unfounded concerns.
Are they really unfounded? We have direct empirical evidence of at least one person arguing tooth-and-nail that Obama should push a political agenda with this speech.
 
  • #59
I wonder if we'll be seeing parents keeping their kids home from school in protest?
 
  • #60
Wax said:
Most news channels will show both view points...
Rather, they promote the myth that there is only two view points.
Hurkyl said:
Are they really unfounded? We have direct empirical evidence of at least one person arguing tooth-and-nail that Obama should push a political agenda with this speech.
I can find you a bunch of people arguing tooth an nail that alien beings are plotting to enslave humanity. Are you going to get riled up over that?
 
  • #61
kyleb said:
I can find you a bunch of people arguing tooth an nail that alien beings are plotting to enslave humanity. Are you going to get riled up over that?
Neither should we allow such trash in this forum, though.
Rather, they promote the myth that there is only two view points.
One way or another, every issue gets boiled down to a "yes" or a "no. There are two prominent parties in the US, therefore there are only two primary positions. However, don't take that to mean they don't discuss the various nuances of the positions.
 
  • #62
russ_watters said:
Neither should we allow such trash in this forum, though.
So why is Hurkyl getting away with such an unstbstated argument here?
russ_watters said:
One way or another, every issue gets boiled down to a "yes" or a "no. There are two prominent parties in the US, therefore there are only two primary positions. However, don't take that to mean they don't discuss the various nuances of the positions.
Yeah, I mean they offer limited range of "yes" and "no" perspectives, often with neither being well reasoned, and generally presented with bias towards one answer or the other.
 
  • #63
noblegas said:
why give a speech if you aren't even going to address the problems with the school system?

They are underage students. They have no control over the quality of the education system. The biggest contribution they can make to their education is to make sure to get one. Students who have little to no interest in getting an education and bettering themselves along with parents who lack interest are probably two of the biggest factors in the failure of our school system. A students own contribution to their education is the most appropriate topic for such a speech.
 
  • #64
kyleb said:
So why is Hurkyl getting away with such an unstbstated argument here?
Uh, you tried to flip over what I said. FAIL! Hurkyl's claim was clearly true and the example of trash (my label) that you gave parallels with the example of trash that he was arguing against.
 
  • #65
His "We have direct empirical evidence of at least one person arguing tooth-and-nail that" was the same argument as my example, only addressing a different subject, but which is equality lacking in substantiation. So, why only take issue with one but not the other?
 
  • #66
What's needed here is for Congressional members with backbone to immediately:
1. Denounce the President's school speech.
2. Order the General Accounting Office to investigate any monies spent in the production of the speech.
3. Summon top administrations officials, especially the education secretary, to hearings on the speech.

Then, depending on what party does all this we need the usual voices on this forum to condemn these actions as demented and insane, or to otherwise nod approvingly.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/When-Bush-spoke-to-students-Democrats-investigated-held-hearings-57694347.html
 
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  • #67
mheslep said:
1. Denounce the President's school speech.
Why, specifically? I've yet to see anyone willing to address that necessary precondition.
 
  • #68
kyleb said:
Why, specifically? I've yet to see anyone willing to address that necessary precondition.
Because that's what the Democrats did, oh so seriously, in 1991 when President GH Bush made a school speech.

For my part, I am kidding about calling for anything from Congress and could care less about the Pres. making a speech to every kiddy in the US. I'm serious though about pointing out the historical myopia.
 
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  • #69
I thought the speech was rather Conservative - didn't he even mention God at some point? What will the Liberals have to say about that?
 
  • #70
mheslep said:
Because that's what the Democrats did, oh so seriously, in 1991 when President GH Bush made a school speech.
The evasivness to demonstating any problem with the content of the speech or the accompany lesson plans had me figruing the whole fuss is nothing more than partizan knee-jerkery, but it is nice to finaly see someone come out and say it.
mheslep said:
For my part, I am kidding about calling for anything from Congress and could care less about the Pres. making a speech to every kiddy in the US.
I disagree, and am thankful our laws do too. As the article you linked notes, we have "restrictions on the use of appropriations for publicity and propaganda". and I contend that it is the duty of our government to investigate whenever there is any likelihood such restrictions have been violated.
mheslep said:
I'm serious though about pointing out the historical myopia.
Beyond the article you presented, I only vaguely recall the situation with Bush Sr., being in my early teens and living just inside the Beltway at the time. That said, it doesn't seem like you are making a serious argument. Best I can tell anyway, you are presenting a superficial account of history to suggest Republicans should emulate the stupidity of Democrats. Is that the gist of your postion here?
 
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  • #71
WhoWee said:
I thought the speech was rather Conservative - didn't he even mention God at some point? What will the Liberals have to say about that?
Er, only the belligerently atheist would have any reason to take issue with the mere mention of God, and they are but a small fraction of our population.
 
  • #72
kyleb said:
Er, only the belligerently atheist would have any reason to take issue with the mere mention of God, and they are but a small fraction of our population.

Are you kidding me? Have you read any of the posts on PF regarding this subject?:smile:
 
  • #73
On a side note. Is there ANY oversight as to what content a president can present to school students? Is the speech release early, etc. ? I'm not worried about Obama, nor would I have been worried about either Bush or any of our past presidents. But is there anything in place to keep a future president from having this kind of presentation, and then spouting a bunch of extreme ideas (either left or right) and intentionally trying to feed the students propaganda? (Other than the concern of their approval rating?)

I could see it happening, a president in his final months of a bitter two term presidency try to push some unfiltered extreme political/religious agenda onto children.
 
  • #74
kyleb said:
Best I can tell anyway, you are presenting a superficial account of history to suggest Republicans should emulate the stupidity of Democrats. Is that the gist of your postion here?
No. I thought I was clear; I was kidding. As I said, I don't want the Republicans in Congress to do anything (other than what some bean counting laws require?). My point was that memories are very short, even with the aid of the internet, on the Democrats doing 3X the harassment 18 yrs ago on the same subject. Despite the history, we now hear that because some talking heads are harassing this President on the school speech that the very life of the republic is under grave threat.
 
  • #75
kyleb said:
His "We have direct empirical evidence of at least one person arguing tooth-and-nail that" was the same argument as my example, only addressing a different subject, but which is equality lacking in substantiation. So, why only take issue with one but not the other? [emphasis added]
Because the part in bold is clearly wrong (or at least intentionally misleading). We know your example lacks substantiation and we know Hurkyl's example is true.

This is a really silly game you are playing, kyleb.
 
  • #76
According to the local news, our TN district gave both "teachers and principals" jurisdiction in the decision (though I wonder what would happen if a teacher and principal conflicted). Our sons didn't see it... and I hope there's no retaliation against our youngest for inquiring (we've already conflicted as parents with his teacher when he was sent home because of minor allergy symptoms and massive germaphobia on the part of some classmates). He'll watch it online this weekend with dad.
 
  • #77
WhoWee said:
Are you kidding me? Have you read any of the posts on PF regarding this subject?
I am curious to see whatever polls you are referencing, but I am talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States" , which shows a strong majority of our population identifying as religious, leaving the belligerently atheist to only make up some some potion of the rest.
mheslep said:
No. I thought I was clear; I was kidding. As I said, I don't want the Republicans in Congress to do anything (other than what some bean counting laws require?).My point was that memories are very short, even with the aid of the internet, on the Democrats doing 3X the harassment 18 yrs ago on the same subject.
Again, I such a superficial historical comparison doesn't seem like a serious argument. Even though the article you posted was seriously lacking in depth, it still pointed out the notable differences of the controversy not gaining prominence until after the content of the speech had been presented.
mheslep said:
Despite the history, we now hear that because some talking heads are harassing this President on the school speech that the very life of the republic is under grave threat.
What talking heads have you heard go that far?
russ_watters said:
Because the part in bold is clearly wrong (or at least intentionally misleading).
I have yet to see anyone here even attempt to substantiate the concerns that Obama was planing to push a political agenda in is speech, and hence it would be a flagrant lie for me to for me to suggest otherwise.
russ_watters said:
This is a really silly game you are playing, kyleb.
I have never had any interest in playing games here, and would appreciate it if you could ever bring yourself to get over your delusions to the contrary.
 
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  • #78
kyleb said:
...What talking heads have you heard go that far?
? As discussed in this thread, both parts. Criticism: Post #1, talking heads criticizing the lesson plan, etc in the Yahoo News piece (which is fine, I don't care). Criticism poses greatest threat to the republic: Post #11
 
  • #79
Hurkyl said:
Are they really unfounded? We have direct empirical evidence of at least one person arguing tooth-and-nail that Obama should push a political agenda with this speech.
Sorry I'm missing the allusion - you mean the author of the original lesson plan?
 
  • #80
mheslep said:
? As discussed in this thread, both parts. Criticism: Post #1, talking heads criticizing the lesson plan, etc in the Yahoo News piece (which is fine, I don't care). Criticism poses greatest threat to the republic: Post #11
Ah, it seems I had misparsed your statement read it as suggesting TV pundits have been claiming that harassing Obama over this speech is the greatest threat to the republic. My bad there.

However, it seems you have misconstrued Ivan's comment, as he was clearly speaking of "right-wing nuts who are dividing this nation with crazy talk and lies" in general, with this incident being only one example.
 
  • #81
kyleb said:
Ah, it seems I had misparsed your statement read it as suggesting TV pundits have been claiming that harassing Obama over this speech is the greatest threat to the republic. My bad there.

However, it seems you have misconstrued Ivan's comment, as he was clearly speaking of "right-wing nuts who are dividing this nation with crazy talk and lies" in general, with this incident being only one example.
I'm only referring to this one example, for the moment. The 'in general' part is off topic.
 
  • #82
mheslep said:
Sorry I'm missing the allusion - you mean the author of the original lesson plan?
Noblegas was pushing the idea that Obama should use this speech to push some plan for education reform.
 
  • #83
mheslep said:
Because that's what the Democrats did, oh so seriously, in 1991 when President GH Bush made a school speech.

For my part, I am kidding about calling for anything from Congress and could care less about the Pres. making a speech to every kiddy in the US. I'm serious though about pointing out the historical myopia.

I suspect that many Americans, regardless of political affiliations, are not concerned about the president making a speech specifically for school kids, either now or in 1991. I think it is a good thing; and that the president (in 1991 or in 2009) would not be so foolish as to try and make it politically partisan.

I also don't think we can slam all democrats, or all republicans, because of what some individuals do. Some people often do silly things in politics, and there's certainly been a lot of incredible nonsense expressed about this speech in 2009. It would not surprise me to know it was just as bad in 1991.

But neither would I merely assume that 1991 and 2009 are comparable. That someone might make a fuss is unsurprising, but I confess to being a bit curious about any similarities and differences, and the magnitude of the fuss. And we might add that Reagan also made a nationally televised speech to school kids in 1988.

I gather that the issue in 1991 was about funding of the speech, and this came up afterwards rather than before. That strikes me as stupid also. Some democrats apparently set up a hearing of some kind, and it all came to nothing. As it should. I'd be interested to know what the wider public response was, however.

I don't think it makes any sense to say that "republicans" object now and "democrats" objected then. Better to say that some people object now and some people objected then, and that in neither case did the objections have much merit. The people who objected, in each case, tended to be people who are predisposed to look out for ways to attack the president at the time; and that means objectors then were Democrats and those now were Republicans, for the most part; but it doesn't mean that all democrats or all republicans were endorsing those attacks.

Although -- full disclosure -- I confess I would be amazed if the fuss made in 1991 was as great at the fuss in 2009, with parents wanting to pull kids out of schools for the event and so on. It seems to me that the right wing side of American politics has a significant problem at present with a historically anomalous oversupply of extreme nutcases. I don't mean that as a general comment on all republicans, of course; in fact I think the problem is recognized by some within the GOP who would like to improve things for the party.

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #84
Is television allowed at all in public schools ? I mean, would it be acceptable to have children watch advertising/promotion messages on a regular basis, but worry about a once-in-a-year (or less) anyway boring (I guess for a significant amount of the kids) speech by a president ? Would it change anything if the president came in person in the schools ? Would anybody object to that as well ?
 
  • #85
Hurkyl said:
Are they really unfounded? We have direct empirical evidence of at least one person arguing tooth-and-nail that Obama should push a political agenda with this speech.
This may be a mild tangent, but I just came across this article from the Center for Education Reform1. Much to my surprise2, there really are groups trying to push political agenda alongside Obama's speech.

1: Who are these guys? I've never heard of 'em before.
2: though I really shouldn't've been[/size]
 
  • #86
mheslep said:
I'm only referring to this one example, for the moment. The 'in general' part is off topic.
The "in general" is the context of the statement from Ivan you referenced.
Hurkyl said:
Who are these guys? I've never heard of 'em before.
They are a group pushing charter schools. Obvious communist front, eh?
Hurkyl said:
though I really shouldn't've been
It was your previous insinuations of Obama pushing a partisan agenda in his speech that didn't make any sense. On the other hand, it would be surprising if something the president did went by without some interest group clinging on to it to push their own agenda.
 
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  • #87
sylas said:
...Although -- full disclosure -- I confess I would be amazed if the fuss made in 1991 was as great at the fuss in 2009, with parents wanting to pull kids out of schools for the event and so on. It seems to me that the right wing side of American politics has a significant problem at present with a historically anomalous oversupply of extreme nutcases...
I see nuttiness in different places. In 2009 we have the odd soccer mom that may or may not have kept her kid home (about the lesson plan, not the speech), but nobody in the opposition with any power doing anything to anybody. In sum, nothing is going to happen except tongue wagging. In 1991 we had elected representatives actually using power to attack the '91 administration over Bush's school speech. They called the Education secretary to testify. They started up the inspectors office to eat time and money going through files. Now frankly, I see all the '91 stuff as the same ol' politics, though restraint should have been shown. What I find truly odd given the above, are those opinions that somehow still imagine that Democratic ranks are staffed only by the truly enlightened and rational, and that the other side is nuts.
 
  • #88
mheslep said:
In 1991 we had elected representatives actually using power to attack the '91 administration over Bush's school speech.
Are you familiar with the details of those complaints? Were there perhaps specific lines from the speech they took issue, or anything of that sort? Not knowing one way or another, I can't rightly consider the comparison reasonable.
 
  • #89
Per the link above:
W. Examiner on '91 investigation said:
The hearing this morning is to really examine the expenditure of $26,750 of the Department of Education funds to produce and televise an appearance by President Bush at Alice Deal Junior High School in Washington, DC," Ford began. "As the chairman of the committee charged with the authorization and implementation of education programs, I am very much interested in the justification, rationale for giving the White House scarce education funds to produce a media event.
which is simply stupid. The president spoke to some kids at a school, as has nearly every other President. But really, why do you care what he said? The President can't walk out his front door without causing the expenditure of money on what can always, always, be considered to have some purpose of publicity.
 
  • #90
mheslep said:
I see nuttiness in different places. In 2009 we have the odd soccer mom that may or may not have kept her kid home (about the lesson plan, not the speech), but nobody in the opposition with any power doing anything to anybody. In sum, nothing is going to happen except tongue wagging. In 1991 we had elected representatives actually using power to attack the '91 administration over Bush's school speech. They called the Education secretary to testify. They started up the inspectors office to eat time and money going through files. Now frankly, I see all the '91 stuff as the same ol' politics, though restraint should have been shown. What I find truly odd given the above, are those opinions that somehow still imagine that Democratic ranks are staffed only by the truly enlightened and rational, and that the other side is nuts.

You claim to be seeing opinions somewhere that correspond to "imagine that Democratic ranks are staffed only by the truly enlightened and rational, and that the other side is nuts". That's unhelpful hyperbole. There are obviously some differences of opinion, but it doesn't help to just phrase views you disagree with in such over the top terms.

What you say about the '91 stuff being the "same old politics" sounds about right to me. I tried to find out a bit more about it, and the 1991 objections sound like self serving grandstanding, which wasted time and money with hearings and inspections that came to nothing, over what (in my opinion) should have been a cause for bipartisan support. I agree with your reaction to this.

In 2009, many people just don't like Mr Obama and don't want him to have any input to schools at all. The focus on the lesson plan is a bit more reasonable... but not much. It's not really a lesson plan; just a list of possible activities teacher might consider for including in their lesson plans. Many criticisms of these classroom materials have been as over the top as everything else. It's not everyone who is objecting, and not all republicans either. I'm not trying to smear all of one side with an issue, but looking at the issue itself regardless of who and how many think there's a problem.

The specifics of objections to the provided classroom materials don't make any sense. The big issue has apparently been that it involved students writing letters to help the president. Here's a link to the http://www.ed.gov/teachers/how/lessons/prek-6.pdf, from the Department of Education. For comparison, here's a previous version someone has made available.

There are a number of minor changes that I will ignore. These include things like replacing "can" with "could", or "President" with "president", breaking sentences, adding commas, and making minor word replacements or rearrangements.

There is a deletion of one possible activity, involving making a video (see related contest website), which was originally as follows:
Teachers could encourage students to participate in the Department of Education video contest. On September 8th the Department will invite K-12 students to submit a video no longer than 2 min, explaining why education is important and how their education will help them achieve their dreams. Teachers are welcome to incorporate the same or a similar video project into an assignment. More details will be released via www.ed.gov.[/color]​

The only other significant change was to replace
Write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president. These would be collected and redistributed at an appropriate later date by the teacher to make students accountable to their goals.[/color]​
with
Write letters to themselves about how they can achieve their short-term and long-term education goals. Teachers would collect and redistribute these letters at an appropriate later date to enable students to monitor their progress.[/color]​

Frankly, I think the original letter idea was much better, and that objections to "helping the president" have been ridiculous. And -- ironically perhaps -- this activity echoes a similar idea expressed explicitly by President Bush in 1991, in his national address to students!

Write me a letter -- and I'm serious about this one -- write me a letter about ways you can help us achieve our goals. I think you know the address.[/color]​

This was a good idea when Bush gave it in 1991, and it was a good idea when included in the classroom activities in 2009. It's positive, it encourages good civic activity, and it does not require or imply in any way that you have to agree with the president about everything. The objections to the classroom activities as they were originally proposed are absurd.

Cheers -- sylas
 
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  • #91
sylas said:
I tried to find out a bit more about it, and the 1991 objections sound like self serving grandstanding, which wasted time and money with hearings and inspections that came to nothing, over what (in my opinion) should have been a cause for bipartisan support.
I took the time to do a bit of research myself, and found that the issue with http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/research/public_papers.php?id=3450". While the hearing did not judge the use of funds to be inappropriate, at least in that case the complaint had a rational basis, while all we've got here is hollow Nazi comparisons and the like.
 
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  • #92
Has anyone commented on the length of the speech? My experience tells me he probably had the kid's undivided attention for about 3 minutes?
 
  • #93
WhoWee said:
Has anyone commented on the length of the speech? My experience tells me he probably had the kid's undivided attention for about 3 minutes?

Yes, there have been some quite hilarious comments on that matter. I wish I could find again a rather hilarious blog article someone had about his kids on the matter -- but the kids involved were quite young and I think it was more a chance for comedy and poking fun at lots of people who have been taking it way too seriously.

Of course, kid's reactions are going to vary a lot with age. I think many students will indeed have given it undivided attention all the way through; young teenagers are often genuinely very interested in political matters. There are a number of news reports from school classrooms indicating that it was something school kids found interesting.

I remember I once told a young friend of mine (aged 12) that I would cast my vote at an upcoming election in any way she chose for me. Other people might try this project also as a way to involve children in civic issues. That vote got more careful attention and research than any vote I have ever cast, I think. Having high expectations for the thoughtfulness and seriousness of children can sometimes pay off big.

Cheers -- sylas
 
  • #94
You know, it's funny how these things tend to bring out people's tribal instincts. It pretty much always comes down to "my team" versus "your team." It amazes me how many people get into this. It's like the R and the D have these cultural contextual meanings for people, despite the fact that their policies are always exactly the same. It's amazing.
 
  • #95
Galteeth said:
It's like the R and the D have these cultural contextual meanings for people, despite the fact that their policies are always exactly the same. It's amazing.

Really?
 
  • #96
kyleb said:
I took the time to do a bit of research myself, and found that the issue with http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/research/public_papers.php?id=3450". While the hearing did not judge the use of funds to be inappropriate, at least in that case the complaint had a rational basis, while all we've got here is hollow Nazi comparisons and the like.

I saw that as well, and ignored it as irrelevant. That was not a meaningful basis for a hearing, IMO. It is symptomatic of a problem with party politics (it's just as bad here in Australia) that when the leader of the nation makes a positive address to schools, people look for an excuse to belittle it. "Pimping his agenda" fiddlesticks.

It's entirely appropriate to have high expectations of our leaders and its good democracy in action to be critical of them. It's also good to be supportive of them as a leader, even if not the leader you would have chosen for yourself. The downside comes when some folks can see nothing at all that is good in their elected leader and start second guessing even the most trivial points.

It doesn't matter that Bush was about to start campaigning. That's a perfectly good time to get kids thinking about presidents. Bush's speech was innocuous, and something like that should have, in my opinion, strong bipartisan support; both then and now.

As Bush was elected into the role of president, he does legitimately have a special significance and it's good for the leader of the nation to speak to children in this kind of way. It's not something you want to see every week (annual would be okay by me) and its certainly not something where you want to make it some kind of party based dialog with everyone lining up to have a turn as if on a campaign. If the speech was partisan, that would be a problem. It wasn't; neither then, or now. It was the president, speaking as president. And that's a good thing.

Cheers -- sylas
 
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  • #97
sylas said:
Bush's speech was innocuous, and something like that should have, in my opinion, strong bipartisan support; both then and now.
Bush's America 2000 plan was a highly partisan initiative, and while he only mentioned it once directly, much of the speech was pushing the ideas of plan. It would be akin to Obama pimping his healthcare reform plans to our school children with his speech, which I would have taken issue with just the same.
 
  • #98
kyleb said:
I took the time to do a bit of research myself, and found that the issue with http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/research/public_papers.php?id=3450". While the hearing did not judge the use of funds to be inappropriate, at least in that case the complaint had a rational basis, while all we've got here is hollow Nazi comparisons and the like.

You say that Bush Sr. "was pimping his agenda" and "while all we've got here is hollow Nazi comparisons and the like" - could you please explain/support?

If I recall Bush was focused on education at the time.
 
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  • #99
For those that were not paying attention in 1991, a key provision of Bush's program was to use taxpayer money to allow parents to send their kids to any school that they wanted - even parochial schools. Then, as now, a very high proportion of white students in the deep south attend "Christian" Academies that are racially segregated. No blacks are allowed in conservative white churches and only church members can send their kids to the "Christian" Academies associated with those churches. Bush wanted to not only perpetuate the segregation, but to use taxpayer money to pay for it. Great strategy if you want the Southern right-wing vote, but not so good for the taxpayers.

Occasionally, you will hear a GOP candidate claiming that school vouchers would help inner-city kids. They never seem to be able to explain how run-down full-to-capacity schools could accommodate influxes of additional students if they have better curricula than neighboring schools, much less explain how to transport the students. There is more than meets the eye to Bush I's claim to be the "education president".
 
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  • #100
WhoWee said:
You say that Bush Sr. "was pimping his agenda"...
Pimping his America 2000 agenda, which I linked, along with text of his speech discussing it, and article about him promoting it in his campaigning. Did you overlook all that?
WhoWee said:
and "while all we've got here is hollow Nazi comparisons and the like"
http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-news-obama-student-speech-story,0,6631126.story" basically sums up the complaints I've seen so far.
 
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