On the nature of the infinite fall toward the EH

  • #501


TrickyDicky said:
unlikely as it may be it is at least considered as a possibility something (a plausible way of preventing not only singularities but also event horizons from forming) that was not even admitted as a mathematically and/or physically valid scenario in previous discussions. (Even if it was in the literature as shown by PAllen's references by Krauss et al. in the first posts in this thread).

Just to be clear, it's a "possibility", but I don't think it's given much consideration by mainstream physicists. Just having an SET that violates the energy conditions is not enough, as the rebuttals to the Krauss et al. paper show (the effective SET associated with black hole evaporation violates energy conditions, but the rebuttals show that evaporation by itself can't prevent a horizon from forming). You would need an SET that *grossly* violates the energy conditions, *and* the violation would need to be highly sensitive to how close a horizon was to forming, so to speak--meaning that the violation would need to be highly sensitive to a *nonlocal* property, since locally there is no way to tell how close a horizon is to forming, as stevendaryl pointed out (see my response to him for some further thoughts).
 
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  • #502


stevendaryl said:
locally, there is nothing that indicates that you're near an event horizon (in the case of a large enough black hole).

True, and as I just responded to TrickyDicky, this makes the mechanism I was referring to highly unlikely. But since there are weird nonlocalities in quantum mechanics, I don't think one could make a blanket statement that it is impossible at our current state of knowledge about quantum gravity. Betting odds are another matter, of course. :wink:
 
  • #503


stevendaryl said:
It's hard for me to see how that could work, because locally, there is nothing that indicates that you're near an event horizon (in the case of a large enough black hole).

PeterDonis said:
True, and as I just responded to TrickyDicky, this makes the mechanism I was referring to highly unlikely. But since there are weird nonlocalities in quantum mechanics, I don't think one could make a blanket statement that it is impossible at our current state of knowledge about quantum gravity. Betting odds are another matter, of course. :wink:
In GR there is nothing that indicates that you're near an event horizon. And yet globally event horizon have rather observable consequences (black hole).

So if one considers possibility that EH does not form then he has to add some parameter that can indicate nearness of EH. Basically it is gravitational potential that can do that.

And only then one can make speculations like - maybe density of available quantum states goes down as we go down in gravitational potential or anything else like that.
 
  • #504


pervect said:
But let's move a bit onto the observational side and away from the math for a little bit.

There's clearly something very massive and rather dark at the center of our galaxy - we can see the orbits of stars around - something.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0210426 "Closest Star Seen Orbiting the Supermassive Black Hole at the Centre of the Milky Way"

I've rescued this post from the beginning of this long thread because I agree its healthy sometimes to move away for a while from the purely mathematical side to what is actually observed, if only to put things in perspective.
It is true that observing stars near the center of our galaxy at Sagittarius A*, orbiting at very high speeds around a common focus is highly suggestive of something very massive there, if we add that this very spot is relatively dark, it is reasonable to suspect there must be "something like a SMBH" there. And it is expected that in a not very long time we'll have more relevant data to help us discern between a black hole or "something else" that no one at this point has a reasonable theory for.

One thing I don't understand very well is that given the huge mass (4.3 million suns) calculated, in a very compact space, why there seems to be no gravitational lensing effects on the stars closest to Sagittarius A*. We do observe this effects in clusters in which the mass is much more disperse.
 
  • #505


TrickyDicky said:
I've rescued this post from the beginning of this long thread because I agree its healthy sometimes to move away for a while from the purely mathematical side to what is actually observed, if only to put things in perspective.
It is true that observing stars near the center of our galaxy at Sagittarius A*, orbiting at very high speeds around a common focus is highly suggestive of something very massive there, if we add that this very spot is relatively dark, it is reasonable to suspect there must be "something like a SMBH" there. And it is expected that in a not very long time we'll have more relevant data to help us discern between a black hole or "something else" that no one at this point has a reasonable theory for.

One thing I don't understand very well is that given the huge mass (4.3 million suns) calculated, in a very compact space, why there seems to be no gravitational lensing effects on the stars closest to Sagittarius A*. We do observe this effects in clusters in which the mass is much more disperse.

I don't know the current status of observations of this, but there is apparently work being proposed.

See for instance http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.2103

The massive black hole at the Galactic center Sgr A* is surrounded by a cluster of stars orbiting around it. Light from these stars is bent by the gravitational field of the black hole, giving rise to several phenomena: astrometric displacement of the primary image, the creation of a secondary image that may shift the centroid of Sgr A*, magnification effects on both images. The near-to-come second generation VLTI instrument GRAVITY will perform observations in the Near Infrared of the Galactic Center at unprecedented resolution, opening the possibility of observing such effects. Here we investigate the observability limits for GRAVITY of gravitational lensing effects on the S-stars in the parameter space [DLS,gamma,K], where DLS is the distance between the lens and the source, gamma is the alignment angle of the source, and K is the source apparent magnitude in the K-band. The easiest effect to be observed in the next years is the astrometric displacement of primary images. In particular the shift of the star S17 from its Keplerian orbit will be detected as soon as GRAVITY becomes operative. For exceptional configurations it will be possible to detect effects related to the spin of the black hole or Post-Newtonian orders in the deflection.

[add]

Another quote may shed some light on the current status

However, the expected astrometric displacements of the primary
image (∼ 20 μas, Gillessen et al. 2009a) and the secondary-image luminosities (K = 20.8 in the
present known best case, Bozza & Mancini 2009) are difficult to detect and the resolution of the
most powerful modern instruments is currently insufficient to perform such high precision astrometry
and photometry.
 
  • #506


pervect said:
I don't know the current status of observations of this, but there is apparently work being proposed.

See for instance http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.2103



[add]

Another quote may shed some light on the current status
Ok, thanks. I suspected that the effects were not yet detectable (they might be soon). Actually my comparison with clusters was a little far-fetched, since their masses are orders of magnitude higher.
 
  • #507
pervect said:
I've come up with a somewhat simpler approach for presenting the solution for the EF geodesic equations.

Let r, v be the Eddington-Finklesein (EF) coordinates, which are presumed to be functions of proper time \lambda. Then let:

\dot{r} = \frac{dr}{d\lambda} \hspace{3cm} \dot{v} = \frac{dv}{d\lambda}

In EF coordinates, ##\dot{v} = {dv}/{d\lambda}## can be interpreted as the redshift from a light source originating at infinity and propagating radially, this is directly observable as the amount of doppler shift of the light source of a known spectral line of the source at infinity.

The Ingoing Eddington Finklestein metric (gemoetrized) is
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eddington–Finkelstein_coordinates&oldid=516198830

-(1-2m/r) dv^2 + 2\,dv\,dr

The Christoffel symbols are:

\Gamma^{v}{}_{vv} = \frac{m}{r^2}
\Gamma^{r}{}_{vv} = \frac{m(1-2m/r)}{r^2}
\Gamma^{r}{}_{vr} = \Gamma^{r}{}_{rv} = -\frac{m}{r^2}So we can write the geodesic equations as

<br /> \ddot{v} + \Gamma^{v}{}_{vv} \dot{v}^2 = 0<br />

<br /> \ddot{r} + \Gamma^{r}{}_{vv} \dot{v}^2 + 2 \,\Gamma^{r}{}_{vr} \dot{v} \dot{r} = 0<br />

It will be convenient to solve for ##\dot{r}## and ##\dot{v}## as a function of r, rather than the proper time ##\lambda##To this end, we use the chain rule:

\ddot{r} = \frac{d^2 r}{d \lambda^2} = \frac{d \dot{r}}{d r} \frac{d r}{d \lambda} = \frac{d \dot{r}}{d r} \dot{r}
\ddot{v} = \frac{d^2 v}{d \lambda^2} = \frac{d \dot{v}}{d \lambda} = \frac{d \dot{v}}{dr}\frac{dr}{d\lambda} = \frac{d \dot{v}}{dr} \dot{r}

Then we can write the geodesic equations as:

<br /> \ddot{v} + \Gamma^{v}{}_{vv} \dot{v}^2 = \frac{d \dot{v}}{dr} \dot{r} + \frac{m}{r^2} \dot{v}^2 = 0<br />

<br /> \ddot{r} + \Gamma^{r}{}_{vv} \dot{v}^2 + 2 \,\Gamma^{r}{}_{vr} \dot{v} \dot{r} = \frac{d \dot{r}}{dr} \dot{r} + (1-2m/r)\frac{m}{r^2} \dot{v}^2 - 2 \frac{m}{r^2} \dot{r}\dot{v} = 0<br />

Solving this, one way of expressing the general solution is

<br /> \dot{v} = C\frac{1 \pm \sqrt{2m/r} \sqrt{1-\frac{r-2m}{r_{max} - 2m}}}{1-2m/r}<br />
<br /> \dot{r} = -\frac{m \dot{v}^2}{r^2 \frac{d \dot{v}}{dr}}<br />

where C and ##r_{max}## are constants, and the solution has the property that ##\dot{r}=0## at ##r=r_{max}##.

Infalling geodesics use the minus sign - this can be confirmed by solving for ##\dot{r}## and taking the limit as r->2m and confirming that only this choice makes ##\dot{r}## negative, which is required for an infalling geodesic.

<br /> \dot{v} = C\frac{1 - \sqrt{2m/r} \sqrt{1-\frac{r-2m}{r_{max} - 2m}}}{1-2m/r}<br />

If we take ##r_{max}## = infinity, and let ##\dot{v}## be unity at infinity, representing a fall from rest at infinity (sometimes called a Lemaitre observer) then we get the expected solution:

<br /> \dot{v} = \frac{1-\sqrt{2m/r}}{1-2m/r} = \frac{1-\sqrt{2m/r}}{(1-\sqrt{2m/r})(1+\sqrt{2m/r}) } = \frac{1}{1+\sqrt{2m/r}}<br />

If we take a finite ##r_{max}## and set ##r = r_{max}##, we find that
<br /> \dot{v}|_{r=r_{max}} = \frac{C}{1-2m/r}<br />

so, it appears that the correct value for C is ##\sqrt{1-2m/r_{max}}## as the doppler shift at ##r=r_max## should be the same as the Schwarzschild gravitational time dilation at the same r.

As a partial check on this: the killing vector ##\xi^a## should be ##\frac{\partial}{\partial v}##. This makes ##\xi_a=(-1+2m/r) \partial v + \partial r## Since ##u^a \xi_a## should be a constant along the curve, ##u^a## being the four-velocity, (-1+2m/r) \dot{v} + dot{r} should be a constant along the curve. Also, said constant should be equal to the "energy at infinity".

The value of this conserved constant evaluated in the limit as r->2m and again as r->r_max is just C. So we do expect C<1 for a fall from at rest from a finite r_max, and C=1 for a fall from at rest from infinity.

This yields the final expression for the radial doppler shift to infinity as a function of r for a body starting at rest at ##r=r_{max}##:

<br /> \dot{v} =\frac{ \sqrt{1-2m/r_{max}}}{1-2m/r } \left( {1 - \left( \sqrt{2m/r} \right) \left( \sqrt{1-\frac{r-2m}{r_{max} - 2m}} \right) } \right) <br />
 
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  • #508
I have not read all 29 pages of this thread, but I did read the first 3 pages and some of what was posted after that. What I did not find was a full response to the original question as I believe it would unfold.

I'll consider a non-spinning black hole of 100,000 solar masses - easily large enough so that our adventurers will be able to cross the event horizon intact. Of course, this black hole is also completely free of any other falling matter that might interfere with our observations.

I will add "Carol" to the scenario. So we start with Alice, Bob, and Carol all keeping their distance from the event horizon:
1) Alice stops her hover and crosses through the event horizon at exactly 12 noon. Although she can compute the moment she will cross the event horizon, when she passes that point of no possible return, she notices nothing special. However, soon (I'm not sure how soon), unseen by the outside world, tidal forces become extreme and Alice dies from spaghettification.
2) Bob and Carol watch as Alice drops. From their point of view, Alice never quite reached the event horizon and her watch never quite reached 12 noon. As she approaches the event horizon, their ability to measure her momentum with greater and greater precision approaches a potential conflict with the Heisenberg Uncertainly limit and so her position becomes more spread out. She appears more and more holographic.
3) A day later, Bob stops his hover and drops down towards Alice. He soon notices that Carol's hologram stops spreading. Bob drops through the Event Horizon just as his watch reaches noon time of that second day. At that point, he will still see Carol moving down at an unreachable and increasing distance below him. I suspect he will never see her become spaghettified. Instead, he will become distracted by his own spaghettification before the image of Alice's demise ever reaches him.
4) Meanwhile Carol is monitoring the situation. Alice has caused the diameter of the event horizon to increase by a tiny amount. As Bob approaches the event horizon, he obscures Alice's holograph covering it with his own.
 
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  • #509
I posted this in a similar topic just a little while ago:

ViperSRT3g said:
Its speed could be anything you wanted, it's not coming back from beyond the event horizon. (Akin to asking what's outside the universe)

As for objects falling into it, you would see them slowing down, slowly red shifting until it's so red shifted you can't see it anymore.

The reason for this? Imagine the object as it's approaching the black hole's event horizon. It's getting faster and faster approaching c. Throughout this acceleration towards the speed of c, all photons coming from it are already becoming red shifted (they are leaving an object that's moving away from us at nearly the speed of light). Due to relativistic effects, the object is moving so fast, that time is slowing down for it. Thus we see it slowing down, and slowly red shifting.

Now the moment it crosses the event horizon, all photons being emitted from the object will be unable to reach us. So the last thing we see of the object is the object slowing down while red shifting until it's so red shifted you can't see it anymore.
 
  • #510
.Scott said:
What I did not find was a full response to the original question as I believe it would unfold.

Hmm. Your response doesn't include an answer to the question the OP actually asked. See below.

.Scott said:
1) Alice stops her hover and crosses through the event horizon at exactly 12 noon. Although she can compute the moment she will cross the event horizon, when she passes that point of no possible return, she notices nothing special.

Ok so far.

.Scott said:
However, soon (I'm not sure how soon)

Pretty soon; for a BH of 100,000 solar masses, Alice's proper time to fall from the horizon to the singularity is about 1 second.

.Scott said:
unseen by the outside world, tidal forces become extreme and Alice dies from spaghettification.

Ok here, but note that this assumes a classical model of the BH. Quantum effects might change this (and in fact many physicists expect them to). I mention that because you bring in quantum effects later on in your post, but if quantum effects are noticeable at the horizon they should certainly be noticeable near the singularity, yet you haven't taken them into account here. (My understanding of the OP is that it was assuming the classical model, no quantum effects.)

.Scott said:
2) Bob and Carol watch as Alice drops. From their point of view, Alice never quite reached the event horizon and her watch never quite reached 12 noon.

Ok here.

.Scott said:
As she approaches the event horizon, their ability to measure her momentum with greater and greater precision approaches a potential conflict with the Heisenberg Uncertainly limit and so her position becomes more spread out. She appears more and more holographic.

Only if we add quantum effects to the standard classical model of a BH. (Even then I'm not sure your description matches the mainstream quantum model of infalling objects near the horizon; but that probably deserves a separate thread if you want to discuss it.) In the classical model, light emitted by Alice as she gets closer and closer to the horizon becomes more and more redshifted when it is received by Bob and Carol; but the light just shows Alice getting closer and closer to the horizon without ever quite reaching it.

.Scott said:
3) A day later, Bob stops his hover and drops down towards Carol.

You mean towards Alice, correct? (I'll assume so and correct that in what follows.) I'll leave out the "hologram" effects from here on, for the reasons given above.

.Scott said:
Bob drops through the Event Horizon just as his watch reaches noon time of that second day. At that point, he will still see [STRIKE]Carol[/STRIKE] Alice moving down at an unreachable and increasing distance below him.

No, he won't; the only light from Alice that he will see at the horizon is the light she emitted when she was at the horizon. To see light she emitted further in, he has to fall further in.

.Scott said:
I suspect he will never see her become spaghettified. Instead, he will become distracted by his own spaghettification before the image of [STRIKE]Carol's[/STRIKE] Alice's demise ever reaches him.

This is correct; he won't reach the light that Alice emitted as she was becoming spaghettified until *after* he has become spaghettified himself.

.Scott said:
4) Meanwhile Carol is monitoring the situation. Alice has caused the diameter of the event horizon to increase by a tiny amount.

Yes, and Bob causes it to increase by another tiny amount. Carol's observation of Bob is similar to Bob's and Carol's observation of Alice when she fell in; Carol will see more and more redshifted light from Bob, which shows him getting closer and closer to the horizon but never quite reaching it (and always a little bit behind Alice).

However, as I noted above, you left out the question the OP actually asked, which is: when Alice falls in, is there a finite time by Bob's and Carol's clock at which they are no longer able to fly down and rescue Alice before she crosses the horizon? The answer is yes, there is. In fact, we can make an even stronger statement: suppose that Bob has a very strong rope attached to Alice before she starts falling: the rope is so strong that the speed of sound in the rope (which is the speed at which causal influences propagate along it from one end to the other) is equal to the speed of light. Alice starts free-falling towards the hole at time ##t = 0## by Bob's clock. Is there a time by Bob's clock at which he can no longer stop Alice from falling through the horizon by pulling on the rope? Again, the answer is yes, which means that there is some time by Bob's clock at which any light signal he sends inward towards Alice will not reach her until after she has crossed the horizon.
 
  • #511
PeterDonis said:
.Scott said:
However, soon (I'm not sure how soon),
Pretty soon; for a BH of 100,000 solar masses, Alice's proper time to fall from the horizon to the singularity is about 1 second.
I don't know if it's that quick. Neither Alice nor Bob are really dropping "straight" down as if dropping through a sphere. They're in a TARDIS-like contraption - much bigger on the inside than on the outside. So I think they're free-fall is a kind of speed-of-light slide towards the center.

PeterDonis said:
.Scott said:
unseen by the outside world, tidal forces become extreme and Alice dies from spaghettification.
Ok here, but note that this assumes a classical model of the BH. Quantum effects might change this (and in fact many physicists expect them to). I mention that because you bring in quantum effects later on in your post, but if quantum effects are noticeable at the horizon they should certainly be noticeable near the singularity, yet you haven't taken them into account here. (My understanding of the OP is that it was assuming the classical model, no quantum effects.)
Quantum effects in her immediate world would not be seen by Alice as she crossed the event horizon. In fact, if Alice is the only object dropping into the BH, nothing really special should happen to Alice's immediate space until tidal forces start getting uncomfortable.

PeterDonis said:
You mean towards Alice, correct? (I'll assume so and correct that in what follows.)
Thanks for the correction. I've edited my original post.

PeterDonis said:
.Scott said:
Bob drops through the Event Horizon just as his watch reaches noon time of that second day. At that point, he will still see Alice moving down at an unreachable and increasing distance below him.
No, he won't; the only light from Alice that he will see at the horizon is the light she emitted when she was at the horizon. To see light she emitted further in, he has to fall further in.
When Bob reaches the event horizon, he will not find Alice there. From Bob's point of view, she will have moved further down - and will be continuing to move further down. I think the main issue here is how much of that he can really "see".
PeterDonis said:
However, as I noted above, you left out the question the OP actually asked, which is: when Alice falls in, is there a finite time by Bob's and Carol's clock at which they are no longer able to fly down and rescue Alice before she crosses the horizon? The answer is yes, there is. ... Again, the answer is yes, which means that there is some time by Bob's clock at which any light signal he sends inward towards Alice will not reach her until after she has crossed the horizon.
That last sentence is the key. If Bob can get a signal to Alice before Alice crosses the EH, then, in theory, something can be done to save her.
 
  • #512
.Scott said:
I don't know if it's that quick.

I do; I calculated it. Most GR textbooks describe the calculation.

.Scott said:
Neither Alice nor Bob are really dropping "straight" down as if dropping through a sphere. They're in a TARDIS-like contraption - much bigger on the inside than on the outside. So I think they're free-fall is a kind of speed-of-light slide towards the center.

I'm not sure this is a very good description. I would recommend studying a good GR textbook's treatment of free-fall into a black hole.

.Scott said:
Quantum effects in her immediate world would not be seen by Alice as she crossed the event horizon. In fact, if Alice is the only object dropping into the BH, nothing really special should happen to Alice's immediate space until tidal forces start getting uncomfortable.

We don't know for sure that this is true because we don't have a good quantum theory of gravity. Many physicists think it's true, but not all; there are possible quantum models in which it isn't.

.Scott said:
When Bob reaches the event horizon, he will not find Alice there.

Yes; I didn't say he would.

.Scott said:
From Bob's point of view, she will have moved further down - and will be continuing to move further down.

Yes.

.Scott said:
I think the main issue here is how much of that he can really "see".

Which depends on what light signals, emitted outward by Alice, will be received by Bob at what point along Bob's worldline. That's how I determined that Bob won't see Alice being spaghettified before he is spaghettified himself.

.Scott said:
If Bob can get a signal to Alice before Alice crosses the EH, then, in theory, something can be done to save her.

As long as it's done within a finite time, by Bob's clock, after Alice starts falling. After that finite time has passed, nothing Bob does can save Alice.
 
  • #513
PeterDonis said:
I'm not sure this is a very good description. I would recommend studying a good GR textbook's treatment of free-fall into a black hole.
I read several descriptions. I haven't seen one where the actual computation was done - using the reference frame of the projectile (Alice).
The problem I have is that gravity is going to pull you towards all the mass that entered the black hole before you got there. And all of that mass is a really long distance away. I realize that there is serious time dilation, but I can't see how that dilation will be enough to restore your transit time to seconds.
 
  • #514
.Scott said:
I read several descriptions. I haven't seen one where the actual computation was done - using the reference frame of the projectile (Alice).
The problem I have is that gravity is going to pull you towards all the mass that entered the black hole before you got there. And all of that mass is a really long distance away. I realize that there is serious time dilation, but I can't see how that dilation will be enough to restore your transit time to seconds.

You can find the calculation of proper time to collapse in MTW's "Gravitation", pg 851, for the collapse of an observer on the surface of a sphere of presureless dust that is collapsing into a black hole.

eq 32.10c gives the proper time, in geometric units as ##\pi ( R_i^3 / 8M)^ {\frac{1}{2}}##

It might not be done in the way you specify ("using the reference frame of the projectile"), but that doesn't make the computation invalid. One of the points of physics is that you can calculate observations in any convenient coordinate system.

It's a bit unclear to me exactly what you mean when you say "the reference frame of the projectile", or why you think you need to do it in that manner.
 
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  • #515
.Scott said:
I read several descriptions. I haven't seen one where the actual computation was done - using the reference frame of the projectile (Alice).

The simplest computation I know of is done in Painleve coordinates, which is about the best you can do for "the reference frame of the projectile" if you need to cover more than a small local patch of spacetime.

.Scott said:
And all of that mass is a really long distance away.

Not when you reach the horizon. The time I gave you was the time to fall from the horizon to the singularity. That's because the statement of yours that I was responding to was about how long it takes Alice to fall from the horizon to the singularity (or at least close enough to the singularity to be spaghettified). The time to fall from a long distance away (meaning a long distance above the horizon) will be longer, of course (how much longer depends on how long a distance away--pervect gave the general formula).
 
  • #516
I guess it's that singularity that's bothering me.
At any point as you are descending into the BH, you could compute the difference in the circumference of the black hole at your location 1 microsecond earlier and the circumference of the black hole at your current position. Since you are descending towards the mass of the black hole, space curvature should be getting worse and worse so if you weren't accelerating that circumference difference should be getting smaller and smaller. But you are accelerating, and being almost at the speed of light anyway, you would be seeing distances down getting smaller and smaller - allowing the circumference difference to increase.

I'm sure that your equations are right, but when I try to visualize it, I see everything that has ever fallen into the black hole before me accelerating away from me making it harder and harder for me to further reduce the circumference of the black hole at my elevation.
 
  • #517
.Scott said:
At any point as you are descending into the BH, you could compute the difference in the circumference of the black hole at your location 1 microsecond earlier and the circumference of the black hole at your current position.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you trying to figure out how much the mass of the BH increases when you yourself fall in? That would be the obvious interpretation of what you are saying here, but you go on to say...

.Scott said:
Since you are descending towards the mass of the black hole, space curvature should be getting worse and worse so if you weren't accelerating that circumference difference should be getting smaller and smaller.

...which makes it seem like you mean something else by "circumference of the black hole", something to do with space curvature--which, btw, is different from *spacetime* curvature, so you need to clarify which one you mean.

If you mean space curvature, that is not an invariant; it depends on how you "slice up" the spacetime into space and time. For the most natural way of doing that for an observer free-falling into the hole, the way that corresponds to Painleve coordinates, space curvature is zero--the "space" that the observer finds himself falling through is flat! (Space is curved for the most natural way of slicing spacetime into space and time for a *static* observer--one who "hovers" at a constant altitude above the horizon--and there is a sense in which the "circumference" of this space curvature gets smaller for static observers closer to the horizon. But there are no static observers at or below the horizon.)

If you mean spacetime curvature, that is tidal gravity, and tidal gravity does get stronger as you get closer to the singularity at the center of the hole. But I don't know of any way of describing tidal gravity by a "circumference".

.Scott said:
But you are accelerating, and being almost at the speed of light anyway, you would be seeing distances down getting smaller and smaller

No, you wouldn't; at least, not with the most natural slicing of spacetime into space and time for an infalling observer. Space is flat in that slicing, as I noted above, and spatial distances remain the same all the way down. The curved spacetime of a black hole does not work the same way as flat Minkowski spacetime, and you can't carry over all of your intuitions from special relativity.

.Scott said:
I'm sure that your equations are right, but when I try to visualize it, I see everything that has ever fallen into the black hole before me accelerating away from me

There is a sense in which this is true: tidal gravity along the radial direction does make objects below you that are also falling inward radially appear to accelerate away from you. However:

.Scott said:
making it harder and harder for me to further reduce the circumference of the black hole at my elevation.

Again, I don't understand what this means. See above.
 
  • #518
In a normal Euclidean sphere, with no space curvature, the circumference is w=2πr. The ratio 2πr/w = 1.
As space curvature increases, that ratio gets much larger 2πr/w>1.

But if there is no space curvature without acceleration, then Alice will drop until she hits something or begins stretching out.
 
  • #519
.Scott said:
In a normal Euclidean sphere, with no space curvature, the circumference is w=2πr. The ratio 2πr/w = 1.
As space curvature increases, that ratio gets much larger 2πr/w>1.

This kind of space curvature is the kind that depends on how you slice spacetime into space and time. The natural slicing of the infalling observer has no space curvature in this sense; see my previous post.

.Scott said:
But if there is no space curvature without acceleration

What does acceleration have to do with it?

.Scott said:
then Alice will drop until she hits something or begins stretching out.

A black hole spacetime is vacuum; there's nothing to hit. But I don't see what this has to do with space curvature.
 
  • #520
PeterDonis said:
This kind of space curvature is the kind that depends on how you slice spacetime into space and time. The natural slicing of the infalling observer has no space curvature in this sense; see my previous post.

What does acceleration have to do with it?
If not acceleration (for example, resistance to falling), what does create a space curvature?
 
  • #521
.Scott said:
If not acceleration (for example, resistance to falling), what does create a space curvature?

Space curvature is just an aspect of spacetime curvature, which is created by the presence of mass (or more generally, stress-energy). It has nothing to do with "resistance to falling"; I'm not even sure what you mean by that, or how it's equivalent to acceleration, but it doesn't seem like it has anything to do with mass.
 
  • #522
Having slept on it, let me try this approach. I'm sure it's a loosing argument, but I don't see the flaw.

First, the event horizon is all that matters. If I doubled the mass of the sun, it would take 9 minutes for the effects to reach Earth, but if I double the mass of a black hole singularity, the effects will never reach the event horizon. From the point of view of someone outside the black hole, the entire mass of the black hole is concentrated on or very near its event horizon.

Giving Alice a 24 hour head start into the 100,000 solar mass black hole means that Bob will see Alice on the surface of a black hole when he starts his drop. But he will never reach Alice. In fact Alice along with the entire mass of the black hole will retreat from him at an ever increasing rate.

With tidal forces being inversely proportional to the square of the distance, spaghettification is fighting an uphill battle - so to speak. My guess is that it would approach a limit - perhaps a survivable limit - leaving Alice and Bob in a never-ending fall. But I wouldn't bet my life on it.
 
  • #523
.Scott said:
Having slept on it, let me try this approach. I'm sure it's a loosing argument, but I don't see the flaw.

First, the event horizon is all that matters. If I doubled the mass of the sun, it would take 9 minutes for the effects to reach Earth, but if I double the mass of a black hole singularity, the effects will never reach the event horizon. From the point of view of someone outside the black hole, the entire mass of the black hole is concentrated on or very near its event horizon.
Really? When the star was more like a neutron star, matter was spread throughout. Then it collapsed further. You think the matter from the center jumped to near the horizon? Any way in GR of asking what happened to this interior matter concludes it formed a singularity surrounded by an event horizon.
.Scott said:
Giving Alice a 24 hour head start into the 100,000 solar mass black hole means that Bob will see Alice on the surface of a black hole when he starts his drop. But he will never reach Alice. In fact Alice along with the entire mass of the black hole will retreat from him at an ever increasing rate.

With tidal forces being inversely proportional to the square of the distance, spaghettification is fighting an uphill battle - so to speak. My guess is that it would approach a limit - perhaps a survivable limit - leaving Alice and Bob in a never-ending fall. But I wouldn't bet my life on it.

Forget 24 hours, but if Alice was hovering just above the horizon, and dropped, while Bob has been falling from far away, timed to cross the horizon just after Alice, the following is definitely possible: Bob will see Alice crossing the horizon when Bob crosses, then Bob will actually catch and pass Alice, reaching the singularity first.
 
  • #524
.Scott said:
If I doubled the mass of the sun

How? You can't just magically double the Sun's mass; that violates the Einstein Field Equation. The added mass has to come from somewhere. The simplest case to analyze mathematically is the case where it falls in as a spherically symmetric shell of matter. For that case, this...

.Scott said:
it would take 9 minutes for the effects to reach Earth

...is wrong; Earth will feel the effects as soon as the infalling spherically symmetric shell of matter passes Earth's orbit on the way in. You can construct other scenarios where there will be some time delay between the Sun feeling effects and the Earth feeling effects, but the scenario has to be consistent with the EFE, so mass can't just appear from nowhere.

Much the same point applies to the black hole case:

.Scott said:
but if I double the mass of a black hole singularity, the effects will never reach the event horizon.

Yes, they will, because to double the mass of the hole's singularity, the mass has to fall in, which means it has to pass through the horizon first. And someone orbiting the hole will see the effects in much the same way as the Earth would see the effects of a large mass falling into the Sun, as above.

.Scott said:
From the point of view of someone outside the black hole, the entire mass of the black hole is concentrated on or very near its event horizon.

No, from the point of view of someone outside the black hole, the mass of the hole is somewhere inside the horizon, but he has no way of telling where. Nor does it matter to him, because it makes no difference to any observations he can make.

.Scott said:
Giving Alice a 24 hour head start into the 100,000 solar mass black hole means that Bob will see Alice on the surface of a black hole when he starts his drop.

Huh? The hole has no "surface". If by "surface" you mean "horizon", Bob can't see Alice on the horizon until he himself reaches the horizon; at that instant he will see light that Alice emitted when she crossed the horizon, no matter how long ago.

.Scott said:
But he will never reach Alice.

If they are both freely falling in, this is correct; someone who free-falls in later can never catch up to someone who free-falls in earlier. (Things get more complicated if one or both of them can fire rockets to accelerate inward or outward, but I don't think we need to go into that here.)

.Scott said:
In fact Alice along with the entire mass of the black hole will retreat from him at an ever increasing rate.

True for Alice, false for the mass of the hole. The mass of the hole never changes at all from Bob's (or Alice's) point of view; and the "location" of the mass--the singularity--isn't a spatial location anyway; it's an instant of time. So it makes no sense for Bob or Alice to ask "how far away" the singularity is; it's in their future. The only question that makes sense is how long it will take them, by their own clock, to reach the singularity. Asking how far away it is would be like asking how far away, in the sense of spatial distance, next Tuesday is.

.Scott said:
With tidal forces being inversely proportional to the square of the distance, spaghettification is fighting an uphill battle - so to speak. My guess is that it would approach a limit - perhaps a survivable limit - leaving Alice and Bob in a never-ending fall.

Nope. Tidal forces increase without bound as the singularity is approached, and both Bob and Alice reach the singularity in a finite time by their clocks, meaning that they will be spaghettified in a (slightly shorter) finite time by their clocks.

.Scott said:
But I wouldn't bet my life on it.

Good call.
 
  • #525
PAllen said:
Really? When the star was more like a neutron star, matter was spread throughout. Then it collapsed further. You think the matter from the center jumped to near the horizon? Any way in GR of asking what happened to this interior matter concludes it formed a singularity surrounded by an event horizon.
I was only talking about an existing black hole. I wasn't trying to address exactly what happens when one forms.

PAllen said:
Forget 24 hours, but if Alice was hovering just above the horizon, and dropped, while Bob has been falling from far away, timed to cross the horizon just after Alice, the following is definitely possible: Bob will see Alice crossing the horizon when Bob crosses, then Bob will actually catch and pass Alice, reaching the singularity first.
In the scenario created a week or two ago, Alice drops into the black hole first. Bob remains outside the black hole and sees Alice approach the event horizon.
For as long as Bob remains outside the black hole, he can never see Alice cross the event horizon.

Then Bob drops. In that scenario, Bob will never cross paths with Alice. Instead, Alice and everything else that makes up the black hole will fall further and further away. One notion is that Alice will stop when she reaches the singularity, but that singularity doesn't seem reachable. PeterDonis stated there was nothing for Alice to his - just the vacuum of space. If that's true, everyone just keeps falling and the tidal forces should never get extreme.
 
  • #526
.Scott said:
Alice and everything else that makes up the black hole will fall further and further away.

True for Alice, false for everything else. See my previous post.

.Scott said:
One notion is that Alice will stop when she reaches the singularity

It's not a "notion"; it's an inescapable consequence of classical GR.

.Scott said:
but that singularity doesn't seem reachable. PeterDonis stated there was nothing for Alice to his - just the vacuum of space. If that's true, everyone just keeps falling and the tidal forces should never get extreme.

Incorrect; see my previous post.
 
  • #527
.Scott said:
I was only talking about an existing black hole. I wasn't trying to address exactly what happens when one forms.
But you said "the entire mass of of the black hole is concentrated on or very near its event horizon". This is pure and simply false.
.Scott said:
In the scenario created a week or two ago, Alice drops into the black hole first. Bob remains outside the black hole and sees Alice approach the event horizon.
For as long as Bob remains outside the black hole, he can never see Alice cross the event horizon.

Then Bob drops. In that scenario, Bob will never cross paths with Alice. Instead, Alice and everything else that makes up the black hole will fall further and further away. One notion is that Alice will stop when she reaches the singularity, but that singularity doesn't seem reachable. PeterDonis stated there was nothing for Alice to his - just the vacuum of space. If that's true, everyone just keeps falling and the tidal forces should never get extreme.

In that scenario, it is true that Bob will never cross paths with Alice. The rest of what you suggest is false. Bob sees Alice as of when Alice crossed the horizon at the moment Bob crossed the horizon. As Bob get close enough to the singularity to be seriously spaghettified, Bob will see Alice as of when she was spaghettified. Bob will see every stage of Alice's unfortunate fate, as Bob suffers the same.
 
  • #528
PeterDonis said:
If they are both freely falling in, this is correct; someone who free-falls in later can never catch up to someone who free-falls in earlier. (Things get more complicated if one or both of them can fire rockets to accelerate inward or outward, but I don't think we need to go into that here.)

Yes, this is true in terms of time of starting free fall (assuming the events are causally connected). However, free faller (Alice) starting from a static position very near the horizon being caught up to inside the horizon by someone free falling from much further away (Bob) timed to cross the horizon just after Alice crossed, is possible. Of course Bob started falling earlier, but crossed the horizon later.
 
  • #529
PAllen said:
Yes, this is true in terms of time of starting free fall (assuming the events are causally connected). However, free faller (Alice) starting from a static position very near the horizon being caught up to inside the horizon by someone free falling from much further away (Bob) timed to cross the horizon just after Alice crossed, is possible. Of course Bob started falling earlier, but crossed the horizon later.

Yes, you're right, I should have been clearer that I was talking about two free-fallers starting from the same altitude.
 
  • #530
My assumption was that both Alice and Bob dropped from the same altitude. Also, I imagine that giving Alice a 24-hour head start should be more than enough to keep them separated forever.

When I suggested that Alice might hit something, I got this response:
PeterDonis said:
A black hole spacetime is vacuum; there's nothing to hit. But I don't see what this has to do with space curvature.
When something reaches the singularity is either stops or otherwise accelerates or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then it will continue to increase its distance from everything that falls in behind it.
It seems as though the singularity is a self-fulfilling creation. If you assume there is something there to crash into, then that abrupt deceleration allows objects that follow to catch up and feel the extreme tidal forces. Otherwise, everything flows freely with only moderate tidal forces.
 
  • #531
.Scott said:
When something reaches the singularity is either stops or otherwise accelerates or it doesn't.

No, the correct answer is "none of the above". The singularity is an "edge" of spacetime; there is no spacetime beyond it, so any worldline that reaches the singularity ceases to exist once it reaches it.

.Scott said:
If you assume there is something there to crash into

There isn't. The singularity is not a place in space, it's an instant of time. Can you crash into next Tuesday?

Just to clarify, all this is according to classical GR. The standard view among physicists seems to be that quantum gravity effects will take over before the singularity is reached, so there won't actually be an "edge" to spacetime where worldlines just stop and objects cease to exist. However, whatever takes the place of that will be something that probably can't be modeled using a classical spacetime at all; it certainly won't be anything normal like decelerating to a stop.
 
  • #532
.Scott said:
When something reaches the singularity is either stops or otherwise accelerates or it doesn't.

Do you actually know how a singularity is defined in classical GR? I would strongly suggest reading chapter 9 of Wald "General Relativity" for a basic introduction to the formalism of singularities in classical GR. You can't just hand-wave this stuff, there's a mountain of formalism that comes with the concept of a singularity.
 
  • #533
PeterDonis said:
No, the correct answer is "none of the above". The singularity is an "edge" of spacetime; there is no spacetime beyond it, so any worldline that reaches the singularity ceases to exist once it reaches it.
Does it totally cease to exist or does its charge and mass get added into the singularity? If the mass gets added in, does that mass now appear to be a stationary mass? Also, is the singularity a point or a sphere? I don't think that once a black hole has been established, the radius of this "singularity" can ever reach zero.
 
  • #534
WannabeNewton said:
Do you actually know how a singularity is defined in classical GR? I would strongly suggest reading chapter 9 of Wald "General Relativity" for a basic introduction to the formalism of singularities in classical GR. You can't just hand-wave this stuff, there's a mountain of formalism that comes with the concept of a singularity.
I'm hoping there's some way of showing that the tidal forces would inevitably reach the most extreme conditions without attacking a "mountain of formalism".
 
  • #535
.Scott said:
Does it totally cease to exist or does its charge and mass get added into the singularity?

Yes. :wink: The infalling object ceases to exist at the singularity, but its mass and charge are added to the mass and charge of the hole. Strictly speaking, the mass and charge of the hole are not "at" the singularity, because the singularity is not a place in space. The mass and charge are really properties of the spacetime as a whole. As far as an observer outside the hole's horizon is concerned, the mass and charge of the infalling object are added to the hole's mass and charge, at the latest, when the object crosses the horizon. (I say "at the latest" because the details depend on where the object falls in, relative to where the observer outside the horizon is.)

.Scott said:
If the mass gets added in, does that mass now appear to be a stationary mass?

This question isn't really well-defined as it stands. See above.

.Scott said:
Also, is the singularity a point or a sphere?

Neither. It's an instant of time.

.Scott said:
I don't think that once a black hole has been established, the radius of this "singularity" can ever reach zero.

The singularity doesn't "reach" a radius of zero; it *is* at a "radius" of zero--but "radius" isn't really the right term, because, once again, the singularity, ##r = 0##, is not a place in space; it's an instant of time.

As far as how the singularity forms, it forms when the object that originally collapses to form the hole reaches zero size and infinite density. Up to that point, ##r = 0## is a (non-singular) place in space, at the center of the object (we're talking about an idealized, perfectly spherically symmetrical collapse here, to keep things simple; non-symmetrical collapses just make the math more complicated, so that it requires numerical simulations, without changing the key conclusions); but at the instant the collapsing object reaches zero size and infinite density, the singularity forms and ##r = 0## becomes an instant of time.
 
  • #536
PeterDonis said:
Strictly speaking, the mass and charge of the hole are not "at" the singularity, because the singularity is not a place in space. The mass and charge are really properties of the spacetime as a whole. As far as an observer outside the hole's horizon is concerned, the mass and charge of the infalling object are added to the hole's mass and charge, at the latest, when the object crosses the horizon. (I say "at the latest" because the details depend on where the object falls in, relative to where the observer outside the horizon is.)

The singularity doesn't "reach" a radius of zero; it *is* at a "radius" of zero--but "radius" isn't really the right term, because, once again, the singularity, ##r = 0##, is not a place in space; it's an instant of time.

As far as how the singularity forms, it forms when the object that originally collapses to form the hole reaches zero size and infinite density. Up to that point, ##r = 0## is a (non-singular) place in space, at the center of the object (we're talking about an idealized, perfectly spherically symmetrical collapse here, to keep things simple; non-symmetrical collapses just make the math more complicated, so that it requires numerical simulations, without changing the key conclusions); but at the instant the collapsing object reaches zero size and infinite density, the singularity forms and ##r = 0## becomes an instant of time.
So when material is said to fall into the singularity, it's not a movement through space but though time? ...To reach that "instant of time".

But is it possible to reach this singularity without also reaching an r=0 position? I suspect the answer is yes.
 
  • #537
This just in: Stephen Hawking has completely remodeled black holes, eliminating the event horizon and spaghettification and replacing it with a "wall of fire".
 
  • #538
HJi guys, I've been following this revival of this topic, and I have one query. Once Alice passes the EV, all light she emits will be directed inwards, towards the singularity. So how can Bob ever catch up with this light after he crosses the EH, and see her getting spaggettified?
Surely there is no light moving towards him after he enters the BH. except from behind him.
Mike
 
  • #539
Mike Holland said:
HJi guys, I've been following this revival of this topic, and I have one query. Once Alice passes the EV, all light she emits will be directed inwards, towards the singularity. So how can Bob ever catch up with this light after he crosses the EH, and see her getting spaggettified?
Surely there is no light moving towards him after he enters the BH. except from behind him.
Mike
If Alice is pointing her flashlight outward, Bob can catch up to some of this light after he falls through the event horizon.
 
  • #540
Mike Holland said:
HJi guys, I've been following this revival of this topic, and I have one query. Once Alice passes the EV, all light she emits will be directed inwards, towards the singularity. So how can Bob ever catch up with this light after he crosses the EH, and see her getting spaggettified?

Your question is easily answered by means of a simple Kruskal diagram. In fact your question is almost identical to one of the homework problems I had in a GR class last semester. Unfortunately I can't pull up the solutions publicly from my own university website for the class but I did find the exact same problem set assigned by some other university-they use an Eddington-Finkelstein diagram but the idea is the same: http://dafix.uark.edu/~danielk/Relativity/HW8Soln.pdf

See section 11.1.5 of the following document for the general formalism of Kruskal diagrams: http://eagle.phys.utk.edu/guidry/astro490/lectures/lecture490_ch11.pdf
 
  • #541
.Scott said:
So when material is said to fall into the singularity, it's not a movement through space but though time?

Correct. Whether or not the object moves through "space" as well depends on what coordinates you adopt; most common coordinate charts have the infalling object moving through space as well as it falls. The key point is that the reason the singularity is unavoidable once

.Scott said:
But is it possible to reach this singularity without also reaching an r=0 position? I suspect the answer is yes.

You suspect incorrectly. The answer is "mu": the question itself is not well-defined, because r = 0 is not a "position"; it's an instant of time. It's true that there are many possible spatial positions that you could be in when you reach this instant of time, just as there are many possible spatial positions you could be in when you reach next Tuesday at precisely noon GMT. But *all* of the spatial positions you could be in when you reach the singularity are labeled with r = 0, just as all of the spatial positions you could be in when you reach next Tuesday at precisely noon GMT are labeled as "noon GMT". The label "r = 0" labels an instant of time, not a place in space.
 
  • #542
.Scott said:
If Alice is pointing her flashlight outward, Bob can catch up to some of this light after he falls through the event horizon.

Correct. But when he catches up to it, he (and it) will be at a *smaller* value of ##r## then Alice was when she emitted the light. So the light does fall inward towards the singularity; it just falls slower than Alice does, so Bob can catch up to it.
 
  • #543
PeterDonis said:
Correct. Whether or not the object moves through "space" as well depends on what coordinates you adopt; most common coordinate charts have the infalling object moving through space as well as it falls. The key point is that the reason the singularity is unavoidable once
If the object is traveling through time to reach the singularity, should it take a shorter or longer period of time to reach it depending on when the object starts it journey?

PeterDonis said:
You suspect incorrectly. The answer is "mu": the question itself is not well-defined, because r = 0 is not a "position"; it's an instant of time. It's true that there are many possible spatial positions that you could be in when you reach this instant of time, just as there are many possible spatial positions you could be in when you reach next Tuesday at precisely noon GMT. But *all* of the spatial positions you could be in when you reach the singularity are labeled with r = 0, just as all of the spatial positions you could be in when you reach next Tuesday at precisely noon GMT are labeled as "noon GMT". The label "r = 0" labels an instant of time, not a place in space.
Excellent. Then why is extreme spaghettification presumed?
 
  • #544
.Scott said:
If the object is traveling through time to reach the singularity

It's only traveling through time in the same sense that everything "travels through time"; the infaller's "travel through time" to the singularity is no different from your "travel through time" to tomorrow.

.Scott said:
should it take a shorter or longer period of time to reach it depending on when the object starts it journey?

Not depending on when it starts, no. The time to fall depends on how far above the hole's horizon the object starts.

.Scott said:
Then why is extreme spaghettification presumed?

It's not presumed, it's derived by solving the Einstein Field Equation. The solution that applies to a black hole shows that tidal gravity increases without bound as the singularity is approached.
 
  • #545
.Scott said:
This just in: Stephen Hawking has completely remodeled black holes, eliminating the event horizon and spaghettification and replacing it with a "wall of fire".

He just replaced a true horizon with an apparent horizon, which makes virtually no difference to discussions on this thread. His paper rejects the firewall hypothesis. It would help to actually read the paper.
 
  • #546
PAllen said:
He just replaced a true horizon with an apparent horizon, which makes virtually no difference to discussions on this thread. His paper rejects the firewall hypothesis. It would help to actually read the paper.
When I first posted, I couldn't find a link to the original paper. But now, here it is:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1401.5761v1.pdf
I'm not sure whether it makes a difference or not. He's saying that below this apparent horizon is a chaotic layer with the ability to so scramble energy that, in effect, information is lost. That doesn't sound like a healthy place to be.
 
  • #547
.Scott said:
When I first posted, I couldn't find a link to the original paper. But now, here it is:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1401.5761v1.pdf
I'm not sure whether it makes a difference or not. He's saying that below this apparent horizon is a chaotic layer with the ability to so scramble energy that, in effect, information is lost. That doesn't sound like a healthy place to be.

It may not be healthy, but it is just a result of noting that the classical no hair theorems say nothing about interior of apparent horizon (they describe exterior observations), and real collapses can't have perfect symmetries, so the interior will chaotically contain information about the details. Note, he claims information is not lost, only effectively inaccessible in the same sense as a chaotic classical system. My point is that macroscopically, his new picture is indistinguishable from a classical BH externally. Fall through the horizon is macroscopically the same as well. The difference is that the idea of an extended smooth interior fall until close to the singularity for an old, isolated, supermassive BH is no longer expected.
 
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