Paddlewheels in a gravity well and angular momentum

[jartsa]

Let's shine two identical light beams onto two identical light absorbing paddlewheels in a gravity well at different heights.

The angular momentum of both paddlewheels increases.

Then we transfer the paddlewheels into same position and compare their angular momentums.

What will we observe?(the light is aimed at one side of the paddlewheel)
(paddlewheels are vertical (standing up in the gravity field) )
(light sources are above the paddlewheels at the same position)
(after the experiment the paddlewheels are painted white, then the experiment is repeated with these perfectly reflecting paddlewheels)

 

[Q-reeus]

jartsa wrote:

Let's shine two identical light beams onto two identical light absorbing paddlewheels in a gravity well at different heights.

It would be helpful to specify the spatial relalation between each light source and paddlewheel, and the axial orientation of said paddlewheels wrt gravity source.

 

[jartsa]

jartsa wrote:

It would be helpful to specify the spatial relalation between each light source and paddlewheel, and the axial orientation of said paddlewheels wrt gravity source.

I edited the OP

 

[Q-reeus]

We're getting closer to a tight spec, but not there yet:

(the light is aimed at one side of the paddlewheel)

Which, given the next spec of radial spin axes, initially suggests the light source is at the same potential as the wheel - i.e. aimed horizontally. But then...

(paddlewheels are vertical (standing up in the gravity field) )
(light sources are above the paddlewheels at the same position)

Which now makes it hard to figure the geometry for me at least - seems to require a different oblique aiming angle for the two light sources - a complicated setup to analyze, even if precise figures (needed) are given as to relative heights - without which the beam angles cannot be known. Unless perhaps you have in mind that paddlewheel blades are angled at some oblique angle to the shaft axes (a sort of axial turbine) and the beams run parallel to the shaft axes but offset a given distance? But that then doesn't sound like a 'standard' paddlewheel where I would expect beam direction at right angles to shaft axes.

(after the experiment the paddlewheels are painted white, then the experiment is repeated with these perfectly reflecting paddlewheels)

That part at least is easy - simple conservation of linear momentum tells us the white painted run will show twice the angular momentum change relative to when black (absorbing). The other easy thing imo is that qualitatively there is a gain in angular momentum simply by hauling the lower paddlewheel up to the potential level of the other - provided the spin axis is oriented radially during that lifting.
Back much later. :zzz:

 

[A.T.]

What will we observe?

My guess: After switching off the laser we will observe both spinning at the same rate. When bought together the originally lower one will be spinning faster.

 

[yuiop]

We're getting closer to a tight spec, but not there yet:

I can see the source of your confusion. Just about every sentence in the OP is ambiguous.

Which, given the next spec of radial spin axes,

That was not actually specified. He said the "paddlewheels are vertical" but did not specify which parts of the paddlewheels are vertical. I believe he meant the spin axes are horizontal. Most people would describe the orientation of the wheels on a typical car as vertical, instinctively referring to the plane of rotation parallel to the side walls of the tyres, rather than to the axes of rotation.

initially suggests the light source is at the same potential as the wheel - i.e. aimed horizontally. But then...

... but then again he did say "light sources are above the paddlewheels" suggesting they are not at the same potential as the paddlewheels, but then went on to muddy the waters again by adding "at the same position" ... ... presumably meaning the light sources are at the same altitude as each other.

OK, here is what I believe he had in mind. There are two light sources at the same potential, that are aimed vertically downwards. Located in the path of each light beam is a paddlewheel. The paddlewheel axles are slightly offset horizontally (to the side) from the path of the beams so that the light strikes a paddle. If the light beams were not aimed to one side of the paddlewheels, they would strike the axle and not impart any rotation. Both the paddlewheels are below their respective light sources, but one is at a lower potential than the other. Now assuming that is what the OP meant, let's continue with rest of the his question:

The angular momentum of both paddlewheels increases.

Then we transfer the paddlewheels into same position and compare their angular momentums.

What will we observe?

OK, the light striking the lowest paddlewheel is blue shifted by the greatest amount and has the highest energy (all else being equal). By local measurements, the lower paddlewheel will have the greatest angular velocity. When we turn off the light sources and raise the lower paddlewheel to the height of the upper paddlewheel, the wheel that was initially lower will have the higher angular velocity and momentum when they are compared side by side (assuming no frictional losses). The ratio of their angular momentums will be proportional to the square root of the ratio of the gravitational redshift factors at their original altitudes.

 

[Q-reeus]

I can see the source of your confusion. Just about every sentence in the OP is ambiguous.
That was not actually specified. He said the "paddlewheels are vertical" but did not specify which parts of the paddlewheels are vertical. I believe he meant the spin axes are horizontal. Most people would describe the orientation of the wheels on a typical car as vertical, instinctively referring to the plane of rotation parallel to the side walls of the tyres, rather than to the axes of rotation.
... but then again he did say "light sources are above the paddlewheels" suggesting they are not at the same potential as the paddlewheels, but then went on to muddy the waters again by adding "at the same position" ... ... presumably meaning the light sources are at the same altitude as each other.

OK, here is what I believe he had in mind. There are two light sources at the same potential, that are aimed vertically downwards. Located in the path of each light beam is a paddlewheel. The paddlewheel axles are slightly offset horizontally (to the side) from the path of the beams so that the light strikes a paddle. If the light beams were not aimed to one side of the paddlewheels, they would strike the axle and not impart any rotation. Both the paddlewheels are below their respective light sources, but one is at a lower potential than the other. Now assuming that is what the OP meant, let's continue with rest of the his question: OK, the light striking the lowest paddlewheel is blue shifted by the greatest amount and has the highest energy (all else being equal). By local measurements, the lower paddlewheel will have the greatest angular velocity. When we turn off the light sources and raise the lower paddlewheel to the height of the upper paddlewheel, the wheel that was initially lower will have the higher angular velocity and momentum when they are compared side by side (assuming no frictional losses). The ratio of their angular momentums will be proportional to the square root of the ratio of the gravitational redshift factors at their original altitudes.

Splendid job of deduction yuiop - I'd say that assessment of the OP's intent is correct. Taking then the spin axes as horizontal, the relative gain in paddlewheel angular momentum is just about as you say, but I believe there is a subtle extra factor, which follows from what I wrote here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3901776&postcount=60 (unspecified there was that radial spin axis was assumed - spin-spin coupling)

Basically, for transverse spin axis, we should expect a spin-orbit coupling such that raising the lower paddlewheel=flywheel induces an orbital couple (equal and opposite linear impulses [transverse direction to both radial and spin axis] acting on the raised paddlewheel, and central mass, respectively). This must, to conserve overall linear and angular momentum, be balanced by a change in paddlewheel spin angular momentum, over and above the differential owing to beam blue shift you gave. I haven't attempted detailed calcs, but imo it almost certainly leads ultimately to adopting a truly isotropic metric if full consistency is demanded, as was angling at in that other thread.

[EDIT: There is the thorny issue of just where momentum resides here. In EM a physically real 'stored field momentum' is posited such that e.g. in the Feynman disk paradox, where a mechanical angular momentum imbalance exists, compensating angular momentum resides in the crossed static E and B fields. Formally it works. And it's needed there because acceleration is absolute not relative wrt electrodynamic effect. Unlike EM though, inertial interaction betweem matter distributions assumes reciprocity of relative acceleration - at least in a Machian scheme. So whether 'stored field momentum' is ever neeeded to be invoked in a gravitational setting may be doubtful, but I'm not sure. ]

 

[jartsa]

I can see the source of your confusion. Just about every sentence in the OP is ambiguous.
That was not actually specified. He said the "paddlewheels are vertical" but did not specify which parts of the paddlewheels are vertical. I believe he meant the spin axes are horizontal. Most people would describe the orientation of the wheels on a typical car as vertical, instinctively referring to the plane of rotation parallel to the side walls of the tyres, rather than to the axes of rotation.
... but then again he did say "light sources are above the paddlewheels" suggesting they are not at the same potential as the paddlewheels, but then went on to muddy the waters again by adding "at the same position" ... ... presumably meaning the light sources are at the same altitude as each other.

OK, here is what I believe he had in mind. There are two light sources at the same potential, that are aimed vertically downwards. Located in the path of each light beam is a paddlewheel. The paddlewheel axles are slightly offset horizontally (to the side) from the path of the beams so that the light strikes a paddle. If the light beams were not aimed to one side of the paddlewheels, they would strike the axle and not impart any rotation. Both the paddlewheels are below their respective light sources, but one is at a lower potential than the other. Now assuming that is what the OP meant, let's continue with rest of the his question: OK, the light striking the lowest paddlewheel is blue shifted by the greatest amount and has the highest energy (all else being equal). By local measurements, the lower paddlewheel will have the greatest angular velocity. When we turn off the light sources and raise the lower paddlewheel to the height of the upper paddlewheel, the wheel that was initially lower will have the higher angular velocity and momentum when they are compared side by side (assuming no frictional losses). The ratio of their angular momentums will be proportional to the square root of the ratio of the gravitational redshift factors at their original altitudes.

If the wheels have different angular momentums at the end, where did the extra angular momentum come from, or where did the lost angular momentum go??

 

[jartsa]

Hello again. I lost interest for a while.

But maybe there is something in these paddlewheels with horizontal spin axes things:

I would say that the wheels must have the same angular momentum at the end.

And it must look like the lower wheel is spinned up by a more powerful light beam.

So it must be so that when a wheel is lifted up, it slows down! And when a wheel is lowered down it speeds up!

 

[yuiop]

If the wheels have different angular momentums at the end, where did the extra angular momentum come from, or where did the lost angular momentum go??

The wheel that we raised up has extra angular momentum and energy, but it required energy to raise the wheel so no energy is gained or lost.

Hello again. I lost interest for a while.

But maybe there is something in this paddlewheel thing:

I would say that the wheels must have the same angular momentum at the end.

And it must look like the lower wheel is spinned up by a more powerful light beam.

So it must be so that when a wheel is lifted up, it slows down! And when a wheel is lowered down it speeds up!

Sorry, but it is the other way around. When we lower clocks they slow down relative to a clock higher up. We could construct a clock based on an efficient flywheel and it will behave the same as other clocks and the flywheel slows down.

Relativistic mass is an unfashionable concept but it may be useful here. In SR when we accelerate an object the inertia of the mass increases. A similar thing happens when we lower a mass into a gravitational well. The inertia of the mass increases. In the case of the flywheel the moment of inertia of the flywheel increases as it is lowered and the rotation speed reduces due to conservation of angular momentum, so the total angular momentum of the flywheel does not change. The angular energy of the flywheel does appear to reduce as the flywheel is lowered, but if we attached a pulley and a generator to the lowering rope, we could recover the energy that the flywheel appears to be losing, so overall the total energy of the system is conserved.

 

[jartsa]

yuiop, Where does the extra __angular momentum__ come?

angular momentum, not energy

 

[yuiop]

yuiop, Where does the extra __angular momentum__ come?

angular momentum, not energy

There is no extra angular momentum. It is conserved. The angular momentum (L) is given by L = Iω where I is the moment of inertia and ω is the angular velocity. Any increase is ω is matched by an equivalent decrease in I and vice versa and L remains constant. If you put a sliding lead weight on the spoke of a spinning wheel, the weight moves outwards and the wheel slows down, but the moment of inertia of the wheel changes by a correspond amount and angular momentum is conserved.

Remember, it is the angular velocity or speed of the flywheel that is changing and not the angular momentum which is constant.

 

[jartsa]

There is no extra angular momentum. It is conserved. The angular momentum (L) is given by L = Iω where I is the moment of inertia and ω is the angular velocity. Any increase is ω is matched by an equivalent decrease in I and vice versa and L remains constant. If you put a sliding lead weight on the spoke of a spinning wheel, the weight moves outwards and the wheel slows down, but the moment of inertia of the wheel changes by a correspond amount and angular momentum is conserved.

Remember, it is the angular velocity or speed of the flywheel that is changing and not the angular momentum which is constant.

When we are doing the comparison of the wheels and noticing that the angular momentums differ, how do we explain the difference? Where did the wheel with more angular momentum get the extra angular momentum?

 

[yuiop]

When we are doing the comparison of the wheels and noticing that the angular momentums differ, how do we explain the difference? Where did the wheel with more angular momentum get the extra angular momentum?

At which stage? When they are both back at the same level at the end?

 

[jartsa]

At which stage? When they are both back at the same level at the end?

Yes, when they are both back at the same level at the end.

 

[yuiop]

Yes, when they are both back at the same level at the end.

I concede you may have a valid point here. Possibly I have got local and distant measurements mixed up earlier and arrived at the wrong conclusions. I will do some more analysis and see if I can figure out what should be happening.

 

[yuiop]

OK, I have given it some more thought and I am sticking with my original conclusion. The extra energy (and momentum) that the lower flywheel has when it raised to be alongside the higher flywheel comes from the extra energy required to raise it (eg the energy to power the electric winch that raises it up).

 

[Q-reeus]

OK, I have given it some more thought and I am sticking with my original conclusion. The extra energy (and momentum) that the lower flywheel has when it raised to be alongside the higher flywheel comes from the extra energy required to raise it (eg the energy to power the electric winch that raises it up).

Yuiop - that is not properly your earlier argument. The part, presumably dealing just with the effect of raising the paddlewheel, about change in angular KE is (and I agree there though probably not in fine detail), but not that wrt angular momentum L. Which was that the extra L is generated in situ - at the lower potential location, with no subsequent change upon raising the paddlewheel/flywheel. And I had also initially believed that to be the case too. But gave a subsequent perspective in #7 which evidently you have implicitly rejected. So you see no need for an action-reaction principle between flywheel and gravitating mass?

 

[jartsa]

Yuiop - that is not properly your earlier argument. The part, presumably dealing just with the effect of raising the paddlewheel, about change in angular KE is (and I agree there though probably not in fine detail), but not that wrt angular momentum L. Which was that the extra L is generated in situ - at the lower potential location, with no subsequent change upon raising the paddlewheel/flywheel. And I had also initially believed that to be the case too. But gave a subsequent perspective in #7 which evidently you have implicitly rejected. So you see no need for an action-reaction principle between flywheel and gravitating mass?

Hey Q-reeus, what do you think about a supermassive flywheel, that expands along the spin axis.

Well this is what I think:

Obviously spinning rate does bot change.

Observer in the flywheel says that spinning rate decreases. That's because the observer's brain speeds up, when gravitational time dilation decreases.

 

[yuiop]

Yuiop - that is not properly your earlier argument. The part, presumably dealing just with the effect of raising the paddlewheel, about change in angular KE is (and I agree there though probably not in fine detail), but not that wrt angular momentum L. Which was that the extra L is generated in situ - at the lower potential location, with no subsequent change upon raising the paddlewheel/flywheel.

That was my position and still is although I did not make it clear in the last post. When I said "The extra energy (and momentum) that the lower flywheel has when it raised.." I was referring to the fact that the raised flywheel has more angular momentum than the flywheel that was already at the raised position, but as you say, the angular momentum of the raised flywheel did not change during the raising and was already there, while the angular KE did increase during the raising (both as measured by a distant observer. A local observer that ascends with the raised flywheel, will not measure any change of rotation speed or energy or momentum of the flywheel as it is raised.

And I had also initially believed that to be the case too. But gave a subsequent perspective in #7 which evidently you have implicitly rejected. So you see no need for an action-reaction principle between flywheel and gravitating mass?

Well I did not implicitly reject it as far as I know, I simply did not understand what you were getting at in that post or what your final conclusion was. Also, you have never acknowledged that a flywheel rolling at relativistic speeds past an observer in SR, has different instantaneous momenta at different positions along its perimeter and that this messy feature of angular momentum in relativity is not just a feature of the Schwarzschild metric. You also suggested introducing the isotropic S metric, but I am not sure how that would help determine whether the flywheels have equal momentum or not at the final position.

As for the action-reaction principle involving the gravitating mass, I am not sure how that helps here either. For most practical purposes where we have huge gravitational mass and tiny test object, we only introduce a negligible error by ignoring the back reaction of the gravitational mass.

 

[Q-reeus]

Don't want to appear disparaging jartsa, but there is this problem with being precise . You give some conclusions below, but first let's try and understand what supermassive implies here. My guess is it means massive enough to significantly effect clock rate (redshift) - say a spinning neutron star. proceeding on that premise we have 'expands along it's axis' to nut out. As said it implies no compensating radial reduction which suggests a purely axial stretching action that reduces material density. That would roughly agree with your conclusion of no change in spin rate (as determined by a remote or local observer). I say roughly because stretching requires energy input to the flywheel against gravitational tendency to remain compact - spherical as possible. Which means the mass increases and conservation of angular momentum then requires a reduction in spin rate.

Well this is what I think: Obviously spinning rate does bot change...

See above.

Observer in the flywheel says that spinning rate decreases...

Agreed, but probably for different reasons than yourself. There are a number of ways for a local observer to determine spin rate. One is simply sighting wrt the distant stars. Another would be to determine it from knowing the centripetal acceleration at a known radius from spin axis. In either case there are two [STRIKE]additive[/STRIKE] opposing tendencies:

1: Reduction in spin rate as per above.
2: Axial stretching reduces density and thus effect of gravitational potential on local observer, which implies spin rate [STRIKE]further[/STRIKE] increases from that observer's perspective. [1: is now mute given later clarification in #25, so only 2: applies and spin rate increases locally.]

That's because the observer's brain speeds up, when gravitational time dilation decreases.

If I have managed to guess right your intent in #19 (a big if!) then the last bit will imo be true but probably for different reasons than you supposed.
As to the observer's brain speeding up - again proviso true but only from perspective of a distant observer.

 

[yuiop]

Observer in the flywheel says that spinning rate decreases. That's because the observer's brain speeds up, when gravitational time dilation decreases.

I would agree, if what you are you saying, is what I think you are saying here. Just to clarify your intent, when you say "gravitational time dilation decreases" you mean with increasing altitude and apparent speed up of clocks as measured by a distant observer, right?

For example, say we have an observer, a clock and an efficient spinning flywheel in an elevator, low down in a gravitational well. From the point of view of the distant observer, as we raise the elevator, the gravitational time dilation decreases, the clock speeds up, the flywheel speeds up and the brain of the observer speeds up. Locally from the point of view of the observer in the elevator, there is no observable change to the clock rate or the spin rate of the flywheel in the elevator. Agree?

 

[yuiop]

At post #16:

I concede you may have a valid point here. Possibly I have got local and distant measurements mixed up earlier and arrived at the wrong conclusions. I will do some more analysis and see if I can figure out what should be happening.

... I was obviously wavering in my conviction here after some probing questions from jartsa. The point jartsa raised is interesting and initially puzzling and I think it is worth expanding on it here. I will stay with the original problem but I will add a set up stage that makes things clearer.

1)Initially the light sources and flywheels are all at the same height h0 and the flywheels are not spinning.

2)We lower flywheel 1 to a lower level h1 and using a generator system recover potential energy PE1.

3)We lower flywheel 2 to an even lower level h2 and using a generator system recover potential energy PE2.

4)At this stage we have recovered PE2-PE1 more energy from flywheel 2.

5)We turn the light sources at the top on for equal periods and send an equal amount of energy (as measured at the top) down to each flywheel.

6)The local measurement of flywheel 2's spin speed is faster than the local measurement of flywheel 1's spin speed.

7)We use the extra energy PE2-PE1 generated in lowering flywheel 2 to a lower potential, to raise flywheel 2 back up to the level of flywheel 1.

8)At this point the total energy input to each flywheel is equal, but flywheel 2 has more energy than flywheel 1 at the end when they are both at height h1.

Where does this extra energy come from? The mistaken assumption is at step 7. Here I assumed the energy to raise flywheel 2 from h2 to h1 is the same as the energy recovered by lowering flywheel 2 from h1 to h2. What I forgot was that when we lowered the flywheel it was not spinning and when we raise it is spinning and effectively has greater gravitational mass and it requires more energy to raise it. This extra energy we need to put into raise the spinning flywheel (over and above the energy to raise it if it was not spinning) accounts for the extra energy of flywheel 2 relative to flywheel 1, at the final position at h1. This mistake at step 7 propagates into step 8 because the assumption that equal total energy was put into each flywheel is not correct.

 

[Q-reeus]

That was my position and still is although I did not make it clear in the last post. When I said "The extra energy (and momentum) that the lower flywheel has when it raised.." I was referring to the fact that the raised flywheel has more angular momentum than the flywheel that was already at the raised position, but as you say, the angular momentum of the raised flywheel did not change during the raising and was already there, while the angular KE did increase during the raising (both as measured by a distant observer. A local observer that ascends with the raised flywheel, will not measure any change of rotation speed or energy or momentum of the flywheel as it is raised.

OK thanks that clarifies things and in hindsight I should have realized there would be no actual change of your position.

Well I did not implicitly reject it as far as I know, I simply did not understand what you were getting at in that post or what your final conclusion was.

Will comment further below.

Also, you have never acknowledged that a flywheel rolling at relativistic speeds past an observer in SR, has different instantaneous momenta at different positions along its perimeter and that this messy feature of angular momentum in relativity is not just a feature of the Schwarzschild metric.

Agreed it looks weird with a large translational boost in SR setting. But the magnitude overall is an invariant there, whereas in GR it's not imo. Actually in Schwarzscild metric and for radial orientation, I had 'proved' that angular momentum is invariant wrt potential in this post:https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3893320&postcount=30 comments inside[]. But I now acknowledge, as per #60 there, this would imply there was action of the central mass on the flywheel, but nothing going the other way. Which doesn't add up imo.

You also suggested introducing the isotropic S metric, but I am not sure how that would help determine whether the flywheels have equal momentum or not at the final position.

Still haven't done any calcs, but one thing is obvious - there could be no finding of first-order fluctuations in L as a function of bar angle in that scenario using that coordinate system. It is often claimed physics cannot depend on such choices and I agree it shouldn't. If though one gets conflicting results going from standard SC's to isotropic here (and I think it will!) then best to consider the underlying metric.

As for the action-reaction principle involving the gravitating mass, I am not sure how that helps here either. For most practical purposes where we have huge gravitational mass and tiny test object, we only introduce a negligible error by ignoring the back reaction of the gravitational mass.

Again have not tried to really flesh it out, but there are interesting similarities but also contrasts between superficially analogous cases in EM and gravity. A steady current loop with axis radially alligned is brought closer to a uniformly charged hollow sphere. There is a -dA/dt induced emf owing to the moving loop that acts on the charged sphere so as to induce angular momentum in that sphere. No corresponding reverse emf acts on the loop. Further, if the hollow sphere were instead a 'point sized' charge, nothing changes re the effect on the loop, but now there is also no angular momentum induced in the charge. So one may wonder if angular momentum conservation holds. We rescue it in both situations by positing a stored field momentum existing in the crossed static fields - more so in the point charge than charged sphere case. So there is a sharing in general between induced mechanical and field momenta.

But that is for EM situation. In gravitational case, the Machian position (which I subscribe to), has it that inertial effects of acceleration are always relative. Hence time dilation/redshift stems from inertial effects of matter on other matter, and flywheel lowered towards a mass will in this view have the flywheel experience a torque calculated as though the mass were spinning opposite to that of the flywheel. This seems problematic if again the central mass is 'point like', but then I would suggest there is the gravitational field of that point mass to take up the slack so to speak. This is a hand-wavy account and I'm sure there are those who will come into say GR is not very Machian.

 

[jartsa]

Don't want to appear disparaging jartsa, but there is this problem with being precise . You give some conclusions below, but first let's try and understand what supermassive implies here. My guess is it means massive enough to significantly effect clock rate (redshift) - say a spinning neutron star. proceeding on that premise we have 'expands along it's axis' to nut out. As said it implies no compensating radial reduction which suggests a purely axial stretching action that reduces material density. That would roughly agree with your conclusion of no change in spin rate (as determined by a remote or local observer). I say roughly because stretching requires energy input to the flywheel against gravitational tendency to remain compact - spherical as possible. Which means the mass increases and conservation of angular momentum then requires a reduction in spin rate.

See above.

Agreed, but probably for different reasons than yourself. There are a number of ways for a local observer to determine spin rate. One is simply sighting wrt the distant stars. Another would be to determine it from knowing the centripetal acceleration at a known radius from spin axis. In either case there are two additive tendencies:

1: Reduction in spin rate as per above.
2: Axial stretching reduces density and thus effect of gravitational potential on local observer, which implies spin rate further increases from that observer's perspective.

If I have managed to guess right your intent in #19 (a big if!) then the last bit will imo be true but probably for different reasons than you supposed.
As to the observer's brain speeding up - again proviso true but only from perspective of a distant observer.

It's just as you guess. Except that the energy of expansion comes from the expanding thing. It's made of radioactive stuff. It heats up and expands, but only axially, along the spinning axis. I mean the expansion is heat expansion, and the energy to expand comes from every part of the spinning object.

How about if we consider a spinning rocket. Let's say that the stuff that is thrown out from the rocket experinces no torque, while it's been expelled. Now I say that the spinning of this rocket is not affected by velocity time dilation, while clocks in the rocket are affected by the velocity time dilation, as the rocket reaches a relativistic velocity.

 

[jartsa]

I would agree, if what you are you saying, is what I think you are saying here. Just to clarify your intent, when you say "gravitational time dilation decreases" you mean with increasing altitude and apparent speed up of clocks as measured by a distant observer, right?

Yes.

For example, say we have an observer, a clock and an efficient spinning flywheel in an elevator, low down in a gravitational well. From the point of view of the distant observer, as we raise the elevator, the gravitational time dilation decreases, the clock speeds up, the flywheel speeds up and the brain of the observer speeds up. Locally from the point of view of the observer in the elevator, there is no observable change to the clock rate or the spin rate of the flywheel in the elevator. Agree?

Well ... I kind of agree. But I suspect there is a torque affecting the flywheel in the elevator. Non-spinning mass-energy is entering the spinning flywheel ... and causing a torgue on the flywheel.

 

[yuiop]

How about if we consider a spinning rocket. Let's say that the stuff that is thrown out from the rocket experinces no torque, while it's been expelled. Now I say that the spinning of this rocket is not affected by velocity time dilation, while clocks in the rocket are affected by the velocity time dilation, as the rocket reaches a relativistic velocity.

This is not correct. Let's say the rocket is initially at rest in the Earth rest frame and the body of the rocket is spinning at 100 rpm around its long axis. At the rear of the rocket is a non rotating propulsion and crew section that is not rotating connected by a bearing to the rest of the rocket. Now the rocket is launched to say 0.8c parallel to its long axis, relative to the Earth, then in the Earth rest frame the rocket will be rotating at 60 rpm, but due to time dilation the body of the rocket will still be rotating at 100 rpm as measured by the crew in the non spinning section of the rocket.

 

[Q-reeus]

It's just as you guess. Except that the energy of expansion comes from the expanding thing. It's made of radioactive stuff. It heats up and expands, but only axially, along the spinning axis. I mean the expansion is heat expansion, and the energy to expand comes from every part of the spinning object.

Then in that case (unexpected cause!) spin rate is unaffected wrt a distant observer, but remains increased from local observer's perspective owing to there still being the reduction in gravitational time dilation because of material density drop.

How about if we consider a spinning rocket. Let's say that the stuff that is thrown out from the rocket experinces no torque,...

What you mean I think is that there is shedding of mass without shedding of angular momentum. Which requires either ejection straight out the spin axis with zero 'absolute' spin rate, or a careful aiming process if shed from the rocket periphery. In either case, the rocket spin rate increases - again so as to conserve angular momentum. But I take it you mean axial expulsion since the rocket 'reaches a relativistic velocity'.

...while it's been expelled. Now I say that the spinning of this rocket is not affected by velocity time dilation, while clocks in the rocket are affected by the velocity time dilation, as the rocket reaches a relativistic velocity.

The occupants themselves experience spin-up (rotation is 'absolute') but no sense of time dilation. A 'stationary' unaccelerated observer sees spin-up, but at an ever decreasing rate (relative to that for the rocket occupants) if the rocket is either moving away from or roughly broadside. If approaching said observer, there can be a blueshifted increase in observed spin rate.

 

[A.T.]

As for the action-reaction principle involving the gravitating mass, I am not sure how that helps here either. For most practical purposes where we have huge gravitational mass and tiny test object, we only introduce a negligible error by ignoring the back reaction of the gravitational mass.

When you investigate momentum conservation, you cannot ignore the momentum of the huge gravitational mass. Classic example: throwing a ball against a wall so it comes back with opposite momentum. The Earth's acceleration is negligible, but its momentum change is not, because it is the same as the ball's, which you are investigating.

Similarly here you have to consider the angular momentum transfer between all elements.

 

[yuiop]

Agreed it looks weird with a large translational boost in SR setting. But the magnitude overall is an invariant there, whereas in GR it's not imo.

OK, we are agreed that instantaneous angular momentum of a mass at the edge of a flywheel can look weird in both SR and GR and that in SR overall magnitude of the angular momentum is invariant. I would contend the overall magnitude is also invariant in GR in both the vertical and horizontal case, so we differ here.

Here is an observation you might like to think about, that seems obvious to me but I have never seen mentioned in these forums or anywhere else for that matter (so I may be wrong). It is the analogue between horizontal and vertical measurements in GR (Schwarzschild coordinates) and transverse and longitudinal measurements in SR.

Longitudinal length contraction in SR: Δx = Δx₀ / gamma
Vertical length contraction in GR: Δx = Δx₀ / Gamma

Transverse length contraction in SR:Δx = Δx₀
Horizontal length contraction in GR: Δx = Δx₀

Longitudinal time dilation in SR: T = T₀ * gamma
Vertical time dilation in GR: T = T₀ * Gamma

Transverse time dilation in SR: T = T0 * gamma
Horizontal time dilation in GR: T = T0 * Gamma

Longitudinal acceleration in SR: a = a₀ / gamma^3
Vertical acceleration in GR: a = a₀ / Gamma^3

Transverse acceleration in SR: a = a₀ / gamma
Horizontal acceleration in GR: a = a₀ / Gamma

Longitudinal angular momentum in SR: L = L₀
Vertical angular momentum in GR: L = L₀

Transverse angular momentum in SR: L = L₀
Horizontal angular momentum in GR: L = L₀

Longitudinal angular KE in SR: KE = KE₀ / gamma
Vertical angular KE in GR: KE = KE₀ /Gamma

Transverse angular KE in SR: KE₀ / gamma
Horizontal angular KE in GR: KE₀ / Gamma

Where:

gamma = sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)

and

Gamma = sqrt(1-2GM/(rc^2))

In each case there is an analogue between Longitudinal measurements in SR and Vertical measurements in GR and between Transverse measurement in SR and Horizontal measurements in GR and all we have to do is replace gamma with Gamma. We can even obtain Gamma directly from gamma by replacing v in gamma with the local escape velocity at r, so that v = sqrt(2GM/r).

These analogous relationships have to be used with caution as there are some differences. The coordinate speed of light appear to change in GR but in not SR. The coordinate time for a light signal to go from the back of a rocket to the front is longer than the return trip in SR, while the time for a signal to go up is the same as the time to go down in GR. Having said that, with due care, we can use these analogous relationships to provide some insight into what happens in the GR case by considering the analogous SR case.

 

[Q-reeus]

OK, we are agreed that instantaneous angular momentum of a mass at the edge of a flywheel can look weird in both SR and GR and that in SR overall magnitude of the angular momentum is invariant. I would contend the overall magnitude is also invariant in GR in both the vertical and horizontal case, so we differ here.

Here is an observation you might like to think about, that seems obvious to me but I have never seen mentioned in these forums or anywhere else for that matter (so I may be wrong). It is the analogue between horizontal and vertical measurements in GR (Schwarzschild coordinates) and transverse and longitudinal measurements in SR.

Longitudinal length contraction in SR: L = L₀ / gamma
Vertical length contraction in GR: L = L₀ / Gamma

Transverse length contraction in SR: L = L₀
Horizontal length contraction in GR: L = L₀

Longitudinal time dilation in SR: T = T₀ * gamma
Vertical time dilation in GR: T = T₀ * Gamma

Transverse time dilation in SR: T = T0 * gamma
Horizontal time dilation in GR: T = T0 * Gamma

Longitudinal acceleration in SR: a = a₀ / gamma^3
Vertical acceleration in GR: a = a₀ / Gamma^3

Transverse acceleration in SR: a = a₀ / gamma
Horizontal acceleration in GR: a = a₀ / Gamma

Longitudinal angular momentum in SR: L = L₀
Vertical angular momentum in GR: L = L₀

Transverse angular momentum in SR: L = L₀
Horizontal angular momentum in GR: L = L₀

Longitudinal angular KE in SR: KE = KE₀ / gamma
Vertical angular KE in GR: KE = KE₀ /Gamma

Transverse angular KE in SR: KE₀ / gamma
Horizontal angular KE in GR: KE₀ / Gamma

Where:

gamma = sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)

and

Gamma = sqrt(1-2GM/(rc^2))

In each case there is an analogue between Longitudinal measurements in SR and Vertical measurements in GR and between Transverse measurement in SR and Horizontal measurements in GR and all we have to do is replace gamma with Gamma. We can even obtain Gamma directly from gamma by replacing v in gamma with the local escape velocity at r, so that v = sqrt(2GM/r).

These analogous relationships have to be used with caution as there are some differences. The coordinate speed of light appear to change in GR but in not SR. The coordinate time for a light signal to go from the back of a rocket to the front is longer than the return trip in SR, while the time for a signal to go up is the same as the time to go down in GR. Having said that, with due care, we can use these analogous relationships to provide some insight into what happens in the GR case by considering the analogous SR case.

Q-reeus: Agreed it looks weird with a large translational boost in SR setting. But the magnitude overall is an invariant there, whereas in GR it's not imo.

I should qualify that by saying instead 'it's not imo always true that coordinate measured angular momentum is conserved in GR via standard SC's'.

Looking at your list yuiop, I assume all the '0' subscripted quantities are meant to be the proper values, so would expect in most cases there multiplication, not division by the relevant gamma/Gamma factors [exceptions being the last two sets involving angular KE in SR]. Anyway, when I get some real time, will look more closely at the twin masses flywheel in SC's and see if I got it wrong there or not (transverse spin axis case). Recall though you only claimed back then there was merely an average conservation of L over a complete rotation cycle, which creates problems as the implied coordinate observed fluctuations would never be locally observed. Perhaps though we have switched perspectives to some extent!

 

[yuiop]

Recall though you only claimed back then there was merely an average conservation of L over a complete rotation cycle, which creates problems as the implied coordinate observed fluctuations would never be locally observed. Perhaps though we have switched perspectives to some extent!

It is the same in SR. For a rolling wheel, the rim speed and centripetal forces are equal at every point around the rim in the rest frame of the axle, but in the road rest frame, the part in contact with the road is stationary and the part at the top is going at twice the speed of the axle implying, asymmetrical centrifugal forces and fluctuating angular momentum as a particle goes around the wheel, but it all works out in the end ;) Wheels still manage to roll without bouncing and averaged angular momentum over complete cycles is much more intuitive.

 

[jartsa]

This is not correct. Let's say the rocket is initially at rest in the Earth rest frame and the body of the rocket is spinning at 100 rpm around its long axis. At the rear of the rocket is a non rotating propulsion and crew section that is not rotating connected by a bearing to the rest of the rocket. Now the rocket is launched to say 0.8c parallel to its long axis, relative to the Earth, then in the Earth rest frame the rocket will be rotating at 60 rpm, but due to time dilation the body of the rocket will still be rotating at 100 rpm as measured by the crew in the non spinning section of the rocket.

This is a non-spinning rocket that consists of a non-spinning propulsion section and a non-spinning crew section, carrying a spinning flywheel. (the spinning section is the flywheel)

Now I agree that flywheels experience normal velocity time dilation.

Qreeus and I agree that the spinning of an axially expanding spinning thing does not experience gravitational time dilation.

We can convert the aforementioned thing into a rocket, by saying that the expansion is violent.

Qreeus, do we agree, that spinning rate is unchanged for a distant observer in this violent expansion case too?

 

[Q-reeus]

It is the same in SR. For a rolling wheel, the rim speed and centripetal forces are equal at every point around the rim in the rest frame of the axle, but in the road rest frame, the part in contact with the road is stationary and the part at the top is going at twice the speed of the axle implying, asymmetrical centrifugal forces and fluctuating angular momentum as a particle goes around the wheel, but it all works out in the end ;) Wheels still manage to roll without bouncing and averaged angular momentum over complete cycles is much more intuitive.

What - just G-R (Galilean Relativity) to worry about?! Book-keeping gets awkward for sure, and if analyzing the motion of a single particle there is periodic exchange of L between vehicle and road. The complete cure is to consider any two equally massive particles oppositely placed about the axle. There is not even a perceived net fluctuation in L, and without checking I will just assert the same holds in SR case also (otherwise a sudden crash stop at the 'wrong' angular orientation and hey presto we have gained/lost net L). Still to get round to redoing the flywheel in gravity well scene, but can say for now we got it wrong in principle before - consistency requires use of coordinate speeds normalized wrt coordinate light speeds, then used within the full SR expressions for KE and p etc. More anon.

 

[Q-reeus]

Qreeus and I agree that the spinning of an axially expanding spinning thing does not experience gravitational time dilation.

Not quite. As per earlier thread, considered as a tube of matter uniformly expanding axially, a local observer at some fixed radius from spin axis will be in a decreasing mass density region, and so redshift/clock-rate is changing. Locally perceived as increasing spin rate.

We can convert the aforementioned thing into a rocket, by saying that the expansion is violent.

The picture I now have is of 'a spinning rocket accelerating in a snug guide tube', and expelled mass/gas now spins at the same rate as the rocket.

Qreeus, do we agree, that spinning rate is unchanged for a distant observer in this violent expansion case too?

If my picture is accurate, yes to the extent relative velocity is nonrelativistic. Otherwise the situation is modulated by SR effects as per #28 - slower and continually slowing rotation for receding/broadside relative motion, speeding up within a narrowing angular range of approaching relative motion. You may find this link to other links interesting to follow: http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/sr/srfs.html

 

[jartsa]

Not quite. As per earlier thread, considered as a tube of matter uniformly expanding axially, a local observer at some fixed radius from spin axis will be in a decreasing mass density region, and so redshift/clock-rate is changing. Locally perceived as increasing spin rate.

The picture I now have is of 'a spinning rocket accelerating in a snug guide tube', and expelled mass/gas now spins at the same rate as the rocket.

If my picture is accurate, yes to the extent relative velocity is nonrelativistic. Otherwise the situation is modulated by SR effects as per #28 - slower and continually slowing rotation for receding/broadside relative motion, speeding up within a narrowing angular range of approaching relative motion. You may find this link to other links interesting to follow: http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/sr/srfs.html

How about if we consider a spinning, laser beams emitting disk, in a straight, light reflecting tube. Light that is emitted from the middle of the disk travels throuh the tube at speed of light. Light emitted from the rim of the disk travels through the tube slower than speed of light.

(the spinning axis and tube's symmetry axis are parallel, and all laser beams are parallel to tube's symmery axis when the laser sources are at rest)

The light going though the tube must carry angular momentum that's what's slowing it down.

Next thing to do here might be to replace lasers with electron guns ... then we might conclude that the electron population's spinning rate is unchanged when the electrons are accelerated by the electron guns ... But first we should agree about the laser light case.

 

[Q-reeus]

How about if we consider a spinning, laser beams emitting disk, in a straight, light reflecting tube. Light that is emitted from the middle of the disk travels throuh the tube at speed of light. Light emitted from the rim of the disk travels through the tube slower than speed of light.

(the spinning axis and tube's symmetry axis are parallel, and all laser beams are parallel to tube's symmery axis when the laser sources are at rest)

Getting better with describing a scenario - that much is good.

The light going though the tube must carry angular momentum that's what's slowing it down.

Are you sure? In the frame of one of the peripheral lasers on the spinning disk, which direction is the back-reaction force from that laser pointing? How does that force transform into the frame we see it from? Try here for some clues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity#Force So do you find the disk to be changing angular momentum? Then what does conservation of angular momentum imply about the emitted light going down the tube? How about emitted frequency (and any frequency spreading going on)?
[EDIT: But as yourself, and yuiop in #38 describe, there is spiral motion. So absence of torque is not the only factor to consider - here there is dispersal of angular momentum generated prior to emission.]

Next thing to do here might be to replace lasers with electron guns ... then we might conclude that the electron population's spinning rate is unchanged when the electrons are accelerated by the electron guns ... But first we should agree about the laser light case.

No doubt fun to keep bringing up new scenarios, but maybe best to get some good grounding in the basics and then you will be able to answer all this kind of thing yourself jartsa. Sorry to disappoint but apart from being no expert myself, can't really keep this thing up too long.

 

[yuiop]

How about if we consider a spinning, laser beams emitting disk, in a straight, light reflecting tube. Light that is emitted from the middle of the disk travels through the tube at speed of light. Light emitted from the rim of the disk travels through the tube slower than speed of light.

The light from the rim of the disk only appears to be traveling slower than the speed of light relative to the tube, because it bouncing of the side of the tube walls in a spiral fashion. I guess you know that, as that is presumably why you specified a light reflecting tube. I guess you also know that if the light coming of the back of the disc forms a cylinder shape parallel to the tube when the disc is not spinning, that it will form shape when the disc is spinning.

(the spinning axis and tube's symmetry axis are parallel, and all laser beams are parallel to tube's symmery axis when the laser sources are at rest)

But not when the disc is spinning.

The light going though the tube must carry angular momentum that's what's slowing it down.

Again, only slow going down the tube in a broad sense, because of the spiral path taken by the peripheral light beams. In between reflections of the side of the tube, each photon is traveling in a straight line and traveling at the speed of light. Agree?

 

[jartsa]

The light from the rim of the disk only appears to be traveling slower than the speed of light relative to the tube, because it bouncing of the side of the tube walls in a spiral fashion. I guess you know that, as that is presumably why you specified a light reflecting tube. I guess you also know that if the light coming of the back of the disc forms a cylinder shape parallel to the tube when the disc is not spinning, that it will form shape when the disc is spinning.
But not when the disc is spinning.
Again, only slow going down the tube in a broad sense, because of the spiral path taken by the peripheral light beams. In between reflections of the side of the tube, each photon is traveling in a straight line and traveling at the speed of light. Agree?

Yeah.

And when the light is spiralling ahead, it makes one round in same time as the disk made one round, when the light left the disk. I'm talking about peripheral light beam here, which has no room to expand sideways. The spiral formed by the beam has no room to expand, I mean.

 

[jartsa]

Let us consider a very simple scenario: Beings living on a spinning planet can't use the spinning of the planet as an energy source. I guess we are all familiar with this.

So we know that bouncing up and down on the pole of a spinning planet does not cause any frictional heating, that would be caused by the planet and the bouncing object having different spinning rates.

So therefore: spinning motion is immune to gravitational time dilation and velocity time dilation.

 

[ZapperZ]

Locked, pending moderation.

Zz.