Partial Derivatives and Implicit Function Thm.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of partial derivatives in the context of the Implicit Function Theorem, particularly in relation to a system of algebraic equations. Participants are trying to understand the derivation and implications of certain expressions involving partial derivatives of functions defined implicitly.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the derivation of a specific expression involving partial derivatives and suggests that the relationship might only hold in a limited region of space.
  • Another participant questions the implications of setting the partial derivative of p_i with respect to q_h to zero.
  • A subsequent reply proposes that if the partial derivative of p_i with respect to q_h is zero, then the derivative of phi_i with respect to q_h must also be zero in the region where p_i equals phi_i.
  • Another participant speculates that the addition of the term p_i does not affect the partial derivative, suggesting that the conditions under which p_i equals phi_i lead to a zero derivative, while outside that region, p_i is not a function of q_i.
  • Several participants express a desire for clarification, indicating that they are struggling to understand the implications of the discussed concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not appear to reach a consensus on the implications of the expressions discussed. There are multiple interpretations and ongoing confusion regarding the relationships between the variables and their derivatives.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions about the regions where the relationships hold, and the dependence on the definitions of the functions involved is not fully explored.

qspeechc
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Hi.

So I'm reading a physics book and I come across the following passage:

Let p=(p_1,p_2,...,p_n) and q=(q_1,q_2,...,q_n) and the system of n algebraic equations
g_r(p,q)=0, \quad r\in \{1,2,...,n\}
can be solved with respect to the p_i in the form p_i=\phi _i(q) for i\in \{1,2,...,n\}
Then we have
\frac{d}{dq_h}g_r(\phi ,q)=0
where \phi =(\phi _1,...,\phi _n). If we denote G_r(q)=g_r(\phi ,q) then the last relation gives

0=\frac{\partial}{\partial q_h}G_s = \Big[\frac{\partial g_s}{\partial q_h} + \sum_{i=1}^{n}\frac{\partial g_s}{\partial p_i}\frac{\partial \phi _i}{\partial q_h} \Big]_{p=\phi (q)}

Ok, up to this point I'm fairly confident I'm following along. But then they do the following:

Therefore the partial derivatives can be expressed in the form
\frac{\partial g_s}{\partial q_h} = \sum_{i=1}^n\frac{\partial g_s}{\partial p_i}\frac{\partial (p_i-\phi _i)}{\partial q_h}

and I have no idea where this comes from. I am guessing here that p_i=\phi _i(q) is only in some sufficiently small region and not the entire space, since they do not explicitly say anything in this regard, so that p_i-\phi _i is not identically zero on the whole space, so I do not know where the above comes from. This is probably something really simple and I'm just being stupid, but any help is greatly appreciated.
 
Last edited:
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Anyone :frown:
Please?
 
What is the implication of

\frac{\partial p_i}{\partial q_h}\,=\,0
 
If
\frac{\partial p_i}{\partial q_h} = 0
then
\frac{\partial \phi _i}{\partial q_h} = 0
in the region where p_i=\phi _i, and outside this region, well, it's identically zero since p_i is not explicitly a function of the q_i's. Am I on the right track? I don't see where these train-tracks are leading.
 
Aha! Does this mean that, regardless of where we are in the space, if we have the p_i as a function of the q_i or not, the adding of the term p_i has no effect of the partial derivative because:
If we are in the region where p_i-\phi _i=0 the partial derivatives
\frac{\partial g_s}{\partial q_h} = 0
anyway, and if we are outside this region then
\frac{\partial p_i}{\partial q_h} = 0
Is this right?
 
Ok, anyone please? Even if it's just a " yea I don't get that either"...
 

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