Lingusitics Pet Peeves of your native language

[Mark44]

O.k. it's not as bad in German as it is in French, who say four times twenty ten seven

Belgian French (or Walloon) is similar to French used in France, but there are some differences in the words for numbers. Unlike French, with soixante-dix (sixty - ten), quatre-vingts (four twenties), and quatre-vingt-dix (four twenty ten), Belgian French has its own words for seventy -- septante, eighty -- octante, and ninety -- nonante.

According to this web page, https://e2f.com/5211/, the Romans were using a decimal system, but the Celts were using a vigesimal system based on multiples of 20. After the Romans conquered Gaul, the Roman system won out for the numbers up to 60, but the vigesimal system remained for numbers between 60 and 100.

but we say seven and eighty instead of eighty seven.

There are vestiges of numbering like this in English, as in the nursery rhyme "Sing a song of Sixpence."
"Sing a song of sixpence,
A pocket full of rye,
Four and twenty blackbirds,
Baked in a pie. "

 

[PeroK]

There are vestiges of numbering like this in English, as in the nursery rhyme "Sing a song of Sixpence."
"Sing a song of sixpence,
A pocket full of rye,
Four and twenty blackbirds,
Baked in a pie. "

And, for example:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/52706/when-i-was-one-and-twenty-56d2316642304

 

[fresh_42]

By the way: I have read a not so bad translation of "le clou": kicker.

 

[fresh_42]

 

[OCR]

So you think English is easy?

Lol. . . don't you remember ??

The Story of Esaw Wood

.

 

[pinball1970]

View attachment 244194

Yep, our beautiful, contradictory, oxymoronic, idiosyncratic, wonderfully complex and at times absurd language. If I was anything but an English speaker, I would have refused to have wasted my time learning this ridiculous language.

 

[fresh_42]

Yep, our beautiful, contradictory, oxymoronic, idiosyncratic, wonderfully complex and at times absurd language. If I was anything but an English speaker, I would have refused to have wasted my time learning this ridiculous language.

Well, it is so close to German that it was actually the easiest one to learn!

 

[Orodruin]

Well, it is so close to German that it was actually the easiest one to learn!

What about Dutch or Bavarian?

 

[fresh_42]

What about Dutch or Bavarian?

Dutch has difficult sounds produced in the throat. Would have been easier some centuries ago. But understanding it isn't too hard. And as by far most dutch people speak English quite well, there isn't a need.

Bavarian is easy, but not worth it. I once tried Hungarian and managed the pronunciation pretty well, but was too lazy to learn the words. It has an interesting grammar as well, as all grammatical information is coded in appendices.

 

[Orodruin]

Dutch has difficult sounds produced in the throat. Would have been easier some centuries ago. But understanding it isn't too hard. And as by far most dutch people speak English quite well, there isn't a need.

Bavarian is easy, but not worth it. I once tried Hungarian and managed the pronunciation pretty well, but was too lazy to learn the words. It has an interesting grammar as well, as all grammatical information is coded in appendices.

So what about Swedish? It is typically quite easy for Germans.

 

[fresh_42]

So what about Swedish? It is typically quite easy for Germans.

Well, I guess we have a history and your ancestors weren't the pleasant kind. And you already have Mrs. Sommerlad who learned to speak Swedish. Does she count?

 

[Janus]

https://www.puhutaan-suomea.net/kuusi-palaa-9-meanings-in-finnish/

 

[pinball1970]

Well, it is so close to German that it was actually the easiest one to learn!

Which is why German made sense whereas French was tricky when I studied as a kid

 

[ftr]

As a non Latin based native language, I find English to be the easiest among Latin based languages. I lived in the US for a while and in two months I could yap in all accents from California to New York. I thought that will prepare me to learn German, how wrong I was. Some of their words took half a day to finish.

 

[Klystron]

If ya'll (there's a necessary addition to english, a plural form of "you", and no I'm not from the south) can find it, Robert MacNeil (of the old MacNeil-Lehrer Report fame) did a series on the history of English that was really good.

When I returned to college after service, we were told to select a news service to maintain knowledge of current events. I chose MacNeil-Lehrer report, nowPBS NewsHour , that I watch and read to this day.

Jim Lehrer, a fine novelist -- his comparison of baseball player position as a paradigm for character traits remains a classic -- excellent news anchor and debate moderator, remains a public voice for veterans. Robin Macneil posseses one of the great English language voices outside theatre (IMO). We can all improve spoken English listening to Macneil's diction, phrasing and word choice.

Viewing old PBS Newshour coverage could provide dual benefits: exposure to fine spoken English describing unbiased, now historical, events.

 

[256bits]

Which is why German made sense whereas French was tricky when I studied as a kid

Same thing here. About the French. I don't know.
Greek for some reason when I dabbled in it seemed to make much more sense for me.

 

[pinball1970]

Same thing here. About the French. I don't know.
Greek for some reason when I dabbled in it seemed to make much more sense for me.

Greek!? I only know about the letters from maths/physics but using them to form words? I think that would be tricky.
Lots of Greek and Latin in biology and those languages form many stems in English but these are written obviously using our alphabet so it does not look like...Greek!
I automatically think Canadians would have a handle on French given the demographic but I suppose that would be like you expecting me to speak Cornish Celt or Welsh?
I know a lot of French but my pronunciation is hideous coupled with my fairly broad Mancunian accent.
French is a beautiful spoken lyrical language like Italian Spanish and Portuguese, in the hands of a Mancunian not so good. Like playing the viola with boxing gloves.

 

[fresh_42]

Greek!? I only know about the letters from maths/physics but using them to form words? I think that would be tricky.
Lots of Greek and Latin in biology and those languages form many stems in English but these are written obviously using our alphabet so it does not look like...Greek!
I automatically think Canadians would have a handle on French given the demographic but I suppose that would be like you expecting me to speak Cornish Celt or Welsh?
I know a lot of French but my pronunciation is hideous coupled with my fairly broad Mancunian accent.
French is a beautiful spoken lyrical language like Italian Spanish and Portuguese, in the hands of a Mancunian not so good. Like playing the viola with boxing gloves.

Nid ydych yn siarad galwyn?

 

[pinball1970]

Nid ydych yn siarad galwyn?

Dim ond ychydig

 

[Mark44]

I automatically think Canadians would have a handle on French given the demographic but I suppose that would be like you expecting me to speak Cornish Celt or Welsh?

This would definitely be true of most Canadians in Quebec, but not necessarily true for Canadians in other provinces, especially out west, such as in Alberta of British Columbia. Granted, Canada is officially bilingual in English and French, so non-French-speakers would at least see many French words along with their English equivalents.

Back to pet peeves of English. Many words in English have their origins in other languages - French, Latin, Greek, German, Hindi, and many other sources. One word in English is sort of a hybrid -- rhododendron, meaning "red tree." The rhodo part (red) comes from Greek, while the dendron part (tree) is derived from Latin.

 

[fresh_42]

Back to pet peeves of English. Many words in English have their origins in other languages - French, Latin, Greek, German, Hindi, and many other sources. One word in English is sort of a hybrid -- rhododendron, meaning "red tree." The rhodo part (red) comes from Greek, while the dendron part (tree) is derived from Latin.

The German dictionary says
"latin rhododendron <greek rhodódendron = oleander, actually = rose tree, to: déndron = tree"
so it seems to be completely Greek and then was copied into Latin and from there into our modern languages.

 

[OCR]

The German dictionary says

Well, actually, the German dictionary "says" . . . .

.

 

[fresh_42]

Well, actually, the German dictionary "says" . . . .

.

Sounds pretty much the same.

 

[Mark44]

The German dictionary says
"latin rhododendron <greek rhodódendron = oleander, actually = rose tree, to: déndron = tree"
so it seems to be completely Greek and then was copied into Latin

Those thieving Romans ...

 

[pinball1970]

Well, actually, the German dictionary "says" . . . .

.

I don't think we need quotations marks.

 

[pinball1970]

The German dictionary says
"latin rhododendron <greek rhodódendron = oleander, actually = rose tree, to: déndron = tree"
so it seems to be completely Greek and then was copied into Latin and from there into our modern languages.

We have Norse too, they raped pillaged then settled down and gave some great words
Anyway interesting as they are, these are not peeves and I do not want to get the thread closed for deviation.
Stupid rule in spelling, i before e except after c. Every time I utilized the rule as a kid it seemed like I had found the exception.
German rule when I first encountered it seemed much more logical, if it sounds like i then it ends in i, if it sounds like e..
I remember thinking, 'Why the hell didn't we think of that?'

 

[Mark44]

Peeves in English - What a difference a single letter makes!

wretched - two syllables, accent on first
retched - one syllable

 

[Mark44]

Another peeve - how many vowels are there in English?
Certainly a, e, i, o, and u are vowels, with the usual qualifier that y is sometimes a vowel. That makes six in total.

Occasionally teachers will add w to the list, for a total of seven. When I asked for a word in which w was used as a vowel, one teacher gave "awe" as an answer, but that wasn't very satisfying.

Can you think of a word in English in which w convincingly plays the role of a vowel?

 

[fresh_42]

Are tricks allowed?
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=cwm

 

[pinball1970]

Another peeve - how many vowels are there in English?
Certainly a, e, i, o, and u are vowels, with the usual qualifier that y is sometimes a vowel. That makes six in total.

Occasionally teachers will add w to the list, for a total of seven. When I asked for a word in which w was used as a vowel, one teacher gave "awe" as an answer, but that wasn't very satisfying.

Can you think of a word in English in which w convincingly plays the role of a vowel?

Two?

 

[pinball1970]

Are tricks allowed?
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=cwm

I saw that one but I have never heard of it so I went for something more accessible.
Low and bow were also examples given where w influences the phonetic, the vowel sound.
Replace the w with o and you have 'oo' as in 'two' rather than 'low' as in 'toe.'

 

[fresh_42]

I saw that one but I have never heard of it so I went for something more accessible.
Low and bow were also examples given where w influences the phonetic, the vowel sound.
Replace the w with o and you have 'oo' as in 'two' rather than 'low' as in 'toe.'

Yes, but it only changes the vowel, it isn't one.

 

[pinball1970]

Yes, but it only changes the vowel, it isn't one.

Yes but my original was 'two.'
In 'two' the w does not change the sound it substitutes the second o. It is playing the part of a vowel.

 

[fresh_42]

Yes but my original was 'two.'
In 'two' the w does not change the sound it substitutes the second o. It is playing the part of a vowel.

I am not convinced, as 'to' sounds the same way, with or without 'w'.

 

[pinball1970]

I am not convinced, as 'to' sounds the same way, with or without 'w'.

I think there is slightly more emphasis on 'too' than 'to.'
This is what happens when you invite a mathematician to analyse the rules of grammar when 'rigour' does not apply. I think you are right in a kind of a way but then again I have a point.
Imagine if mathematics worked in the same way?
Another peeve about the English language, it has too many grey areas and no real
rigour.

 

[Mark44]

I am not convinced, as 'to' sounds the same way, with or without 'w'.

I'm not convinced either.

Regarding w used as a vowel, I'm thinking of a word with w and no other vowels to complicate things.

 

[fresh_42]

Cwm as Welsh loanword. Otherwise it would really surprise me if there was one.

 

[Mark44]

Cwm as Welsh loanword.

That's the one...

 

[Vanadium 50]

In Bryn Mawr (the college), the second word is one syllable. The w alters the sound of the a. Is it a vowel? Well the i in Giordano certainly does the same thing and nobody calls it a consonant. (It's 3 syllables, although many Americans add a 4th). So it acts as a vowel.

Is this convincing? Probably not. It's certainly acting more vowel-like than consonant-like, but does that make it a vowel? I think the dichotomy consonant/vowel is the source of the confusion. W is acting as neither in this or the other examples (cow, low, awe). It actually is acting more like a diacritic, but is written as a letter instead.

 

[fresh_42]

It is difficult in English to decide as the language lacks the 1-1 correspondence of other languages which normally pronounce as they write. I searched for words of Arabic origin, because as far as I know, Arabic does not write vowels, but I haven't found any: vowels have always been included for the English version.

We have silent vowels in German, even sound changing vowels, especially in the area near the Netherlands which didn't follow some historical sound shifts. But it's hard to imagine a consonant becoming a vowel.

 

[pinball1970]

That's the one...

Welsh is not English

 

[fresh_42]

Welsh is not English

German isn't English either, but the list of German words in English is really long!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_expressions_in_English

 

[Mark44]

Welsh is not English

English is chock-full of words that came from other languages. Would you deny that kayak, garage, wiener, pajamas, bungalow, pizza, and many others aren't words in English? They all have their origins in other languages.

 

[epenguin]

Oh, and one of the nuttier words in English is 'fast'. It's a noun, it's an adjective, it's a verb, it's an adverb. I mean, come on.

And as adverb and adjective (in the sense of rapid) it has also come to mean the opposite of what it used to. There are plenty of remainders of the old meaning as in "hold fast " "fasten" etc.

 

[fresh_42]

And as adverb and adjective (in the sense of rapid) it has also come to mean the opposite of what it used to. There are plenty of remainders of the old meaning as in "hold fast " "fasten" etc.

Thanks for the insight! "Hold fast" would be "Halte fest" in German. There is also a word 'fast' in German, but it means 'almost', which gives reason to some 'fast food' jokes.

 

[Bystander]

the second word is one syllable.

Is it? My ear always heard PTT, faculty member from Bryn Mawr down in summers at U. of Del., saying "mower;" never had the presence of mind to ask him.

 

[pinball1970]

German isn't English either, but the list of German words in English is really long!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_expressions_in_English

Im aware of that (and French latin Norse...) I was going for accessible and something in common use

 

[Stephen Tashi]

Pet Peeves of your native language

How do non-native speakers of US English feel about all its idioms? - for example, "pet peeve".

When I sense that I'm communicating with a non-native speaker, I tried to avoid idioms. However, this makes what I write sound unnatural.

 

[sysprog]

I detest the presence of gender in languages, for things that do not have gender in nature. For languages that are replete with that flaw, it is a severe barrier to their acquisition as secondary or tertiary languages. I find it especially exasperating when a noun that is masculine in one language is feminine in another.

 

[epenguin]

German isn't English either, but the list of German words in English is really long!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_expressions_in_English

Rather forced IMO to call most of those 'English'. The majority are pretty rare anyway, many having a specifically German context that would be apparent any time you used it. In almost all cases I would be perfectly conscious of the German origin. The only example where I did not know this was 'hamster'. Dachshunds and Rottweilers bark with German accents, but maybe Poodles have been fully naturalised into English .

In a few cases there might be some question about whether you called the origin German or Yiddish, and so indirectly German. I thought delicatessen might be such a case. But whatever, it turns out that that has come through French and Italian according to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delicatessen

There are bound to be some German terms in scientific English. One that sticks out is 'eigen-', as in the awkward set of hybrids eigenvalue, eigenvector, eigenfunction etc. You occasionally see attempts at an English version like "proper-" "self-" or "auto-" even going back a long way, but they have not taken. I suspect they will in the end. Like you used to see in texts 'gegen-' as in 'gegen ion' now totally supplanted by 'counter-'.