Lingusitics Picking Up a Language - Experiences, Courses & Levels

[JeffN]

Anyone care to share their experiences picking up a language 'from scratch' by taking university courses? How many courses do you generally have to take before being able to speak at a moderately competent level, read books in the language, and so on?

I'm thinking French or German. Thing is, I wouldn't be speaking in either of these languages outside of the classroom, so..

 

[JasonRox]

Anyone care to share their experiences picking up a language 'from scratch' by taking university courses? How many courses do you generally have to take before being able to speak at a moderately competent level, read books in the language, and so on?

I'm thinking French or German. Thing is, I wouldn't be speaking in either of these languages outside of the classroom, so..

Well, I just started Cantonese on my own using Pimsleur's audio series. I don't plan on learning how to write or read Cantonese though. I do however plan on learning how to speak, write and read Mandarin.

Anyways, the audio series makes you say the words out loud many times over and over again. It's actually fun though. And you feel the progress go up.

I'd say after 30 lessons of Pimsleur that you would be pretty darn good. Each lesson is 30 minutes and has 90 lessons total. I would assume if you did 90 lessons carefully and correctly, that you'd probably be quite fluent in the speech.

 

[Kurdt]

Well a linguist will tell you there's only about 10 lessons you can do in any language, then the rest is practise. I've never personally taken a university course but my friend is a language professor and he's an excellent teacher. Of course you have to practise outside of class.

With regards to the languages, If English is your native then German will be the easier to pick up.

 

[Cyrus]

I am learning Jive and Ebonics, fool.

Attendant: Can I get you something?
Jiveman #2: S'mo fo butter layin' to the bone. Jackin' me up. Tightly.
Attendant: I'm sorry I don't understand.
Jiveman #1: Cutty say he can't hang.
Woman : Oh stewardess, I speak jive.
Attendant: Ohhhh, good.
Woman : He said that he's in great pain and he wants to know if you can help him.
Attendant: Would you tell him to just relax and I'll be back as soon as I can with some medicine.
Woman : Jus' hang loose blooood. She goonna catch up on the`rebound a de medcide.
Jiveman #2: What it is big mamma, my mamma didn't raise no dummy, I dug her rap.
Woman : Cut me som' slac' jak! Chump don wan no help, chump don git no help. Jive ass dude don got no brains anyhow.

http://larry.teamoverkill.com/jive/illness.wav

Airplane, I love that movie.

 

[JohnDuck]

If you never speak it outside of the classroom, you will never become fluent.

Personally I've taken about three years of German (2 years of introductory courses and German literature) and while I wouldn't consider myself fluent, I can hack through German novels (I need to look up roughly one word per page). I have a lot more trouble in conversation--I can generally understand what's being said to me, but I'm slow to formulate a reply. My peers who have studied abroad seem to have an easier going.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Airplane, I love that movie.

Oh, yeah! Barbara Billingsley rules!

 

[chroot]

The Pimsleur guides are excellent. For additional practice, I find that reading newspapers or childrens' books in the language is best. I read a couple of Harry Potter books in German recently. You might feel a little weird reading them out loud in your bedroom, but it really works.

- Warren

 

[JeffN]

Being from Canada and all, I think French would be more useful and easier to practice. I really wish I stuck with it during middle school :(

German's still free game though.

I know that I took a semester of Spanish back in high school, and despite getting good marks in the class, i can't remember anything

 

[JeffN]

If you never speak it outside of the classroom, you will never become fluent.

Personally I've taken about three years of German (2 years of introductory courses and German literature) and while I wouldn't consider myself fluent, I can hack through German novels (I need to look up roughly one word per page). I have a lot more trouble in conversation--I can generally understand what's being said to me, but I'm slow to formulate a reply. My peers who have studied abroad seem to have an easier going.

so, did you know any German before taking your first course? What kind practice did you get outside of class?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I studied French and German in University, but only with the intention of learning how to read. I was proficient enough to satisfy the language requirement for my master's in math.

I studied Hebrew as a child, and Spanish in high school to no visible effect. However, I eventually learned to speak fluent Hebrew while in Israel in a total immersion classroom setting. That included practice outside the classroom. I also learned to speak fluent Japanese in Japan while in a classroom plus outside practice. I tried and failed to learn Mandarin Chinese while in Taiwan even though I had classroom lessons and lived with a Chinese family. My experience leads me to believe that I could not learn a language in a classroom setting without being immersed in the language. They say that the best thing is to get a boy/girlfriend who speaks the language you are trying to learn. However, my wife is Chinese and I can't speak her language. And she won't let me learn any other language by this means.

 

[symbolipoint]

Anyone care to share their experiences picking up a language 'from scratch' by taking university courses? How many courses do you generally have to take before being able to speak at a moderately competent level, read books in the language, and so on?

I'm thinking French or German. Thing is, I wouldn't be speaking in either of these languages outside of the classroom, so..

Getting proficiency in the language depends on how the language is taught. College language instruction can range from good to very bad. You will be able to "pick up" the language only to the extent that the instruction is designed for you to "pick up" the language. If the teacher gives structured interactive exercises for conversational skills to help the students through the various grammar and vocabulary structures then you should be able to obtain some good conversational proficiency inside of about 4 or 5 months. So basically how fast you pick up the language is a matter of how well and in what way the language is taught.

As for German being easier to learn/pick up/acquire for native-english speakers because it is similar to English ---- that is not credible. Certainly linguistics experts would likely disagree with me. More than one linguistic type expert have already told me that idea about German and English.

One key to proper foreign language instruction is to deliver instruction MOSTLY OR ENTIRELY IN the language being instructed. When nearly all of the language is being taught in the native language of the students, something is very wrong. This only treats the language as if it is some form of mathematics to be used only in written form never to be spoken in spontaneous oral-aural communication.

 

[JohnDuck]

so, did you know any German before taking your first course? What kind practice did you get outside of class?

I took a couple years in high school, but it was mostly stuff we breezed through in the very first semester. I don't get a whole lot of practice outside the classroom. There was a year gap between my first two years of German and my German lit class, and I didn't really practice it then. I lost a lot of vocabulary, but I picked it up again relatively quickly (it was one of my toughest semesters, though--the homework took me an inordinate amount of time). Due to scheduling conflicts, I probably won't take another German class until this upcoming spring semester. I've been reading German novels and watching German-language movies to keep my vocabulary up in the meantime, but I imagine I'll still be at a disadvantage by the time I'm able to take another class. Nothing beats actual conversation, but I don't have anybody to conversate with.

 

[Astronuc]

I studied Spanish during 4-9th grade and German 10-12th and university. I was moderately proficient at both, but probably better at German. I then had the opportunities to travel to German often and Spanish and the languages came back with use. It's best to learn and then immerse oneself for a time.

I also studied Russian and Bulgarian, and a little Romanian, since I have contacts there.

I also read a little technical French, but I would like to learn it more formally.

And I learned a little Japanese, but its gone without practice.

 

[whitay]

Astronuc, I believe in that learn and then immerse. The first 3months i was here I didnt speak german at all really. Though I was gradually learning, englisch was a big part of my day. After 3months I had a sufficient amount to survive in explaining myself and understanding. But I don't understand in every social situation, that being speakers etc. Direct contact is best for me to fully understand. But speaking is just like I don't really think at all its like I was speaking in english, it just comes to me. But I still think in english a lot of the time, but if i come out of situation where i have been speaking a lot of german, then i come away thinking in german. But that lasts a few hours. I should probably stop listening to music, and reading english books and on the internet everything is in english. Then i might full immense, but the internet is a drug for me. I got to get my daily dose.

my 2cents.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I studied French until I left school at 16, I was bad at it. I'm still bad at it, I joined a French on line gaming community who were quite forgiving about my language lack, and then left and now have probably forgotten most of what I learnt, I intend one day probably when I retire to learn a language, English would be a start and then maybe I can progress onto French. I am not good with languages but I'm a firm believer that everyone should learn at least one other language, so one day I'm sure I'll be fluent: well in English at least

 

[Astronuc]

I believe in that learn and then immerse.

I was on a business trip to Düsseldorf once. I made hotel reservations through the corporate travel agency (the last time I did that). They booked the hotel for end of the trip, but neglected to confirm for the day of my arrival. I got to the hotel, a small gasthaus, in a neighborhood near the main train station. When I arrived it was closed, so I sat and waited. Nearly an hour went by, and then I pressed another button which called office of the hotel. The message was in German and could mostly understand it, but I was missing a key part. Since I has flown overnight to get to Düsseldorf, I dozed off on the front steps. When I woke up after an about an hour, some people walking by began talking to me, and it was all in German. I explained I was waiting for the owner, and I played the tape message from the office. It turned out that the crucial part I was missing was that the hotel was closed until Monday morning (I had arrived on Sunday).

So I had to change plans. Some people offered to mind my bags while I looked for another hotel nearby. I told them that I would go on another nearby city, Essen, where I was supposed to attend meetings the following morning. So I went back the main station and took a local train to Essen. It turned out that the company I was meeting was near the train station and a hotel was also nearby, so I stayed at the hotel and then walked to the company for meetings the next morning.

Actually knowing German was beneficial since I the company where I worked did a lot of business with German clients, and they were generally impressed with someone from the US who could speak German. And the practical side was going places where only German was spoken. Fleuncy of Spanish and French is similarly useful, because the company where I work now has clients in Spain and France.

my 2cents.

Man könnte sagen, "Meine zwei pfennige", oder "mein zwei Centswerte".


On a more personal side, I have a dear friend in Bulgaria and we used to correspond a lot on various topics of mutual interest. She would write in German, Russian and Bulgarian and I would write in English. She helped me with German, Russian and Bulgarian and I helped her with her English. It is very nice to have such a friend who is willing to spend time in such an exchange.

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

I started to learn German with Pimsleur's speak and read German. I agree with others, Pimsleur's is top notch. I didn't follow through with it though.

 

[whitay]

I hate those phrase tapes etc they don't work for me. I just learn words and read a grammar book. Then construct the sentences myself.

Funny story I was in Düsseldorf for 3days and seen nothing of it. I was in the Essen hauptbahnhof, that's all. Mabe I will visit Essen again, donno. Düsseldorf definitely, soon actually maybe in the next couple of weeks or so.

Tut mir leid. Ich habe kein bock. Wann du meine zwei pfennige sagst, es ist einbisschen komisch, oder?

aber habe ich nie gehört das vorher gesagt. auf deutsch. (richtig?)

 

[JasonRox]

I hate those phrase tapes etc they don't work for me. I just learn words and read a grammar book. Then construct the sentences myself.

That's what you're suppose to do with phrase tapes too. It helps with pronounciation. That's the main purpose.

Pronounciation in Cantonese is very crucial. In fact, I know you can't possibly learn that language unless you could hear the words probably and practice. So, learning it straight from a book is impossible.

 

[whitay]

schon das weiss ich. Ich bin in deutschland. So, kann ich noch fragen euch über die Aussprache. Aber mit was mache ich hier, kann man nicht von buch lernen.

 

[Astronuc]

Tut mir leid. Ich habe kein bock. Wann du meine zwei pfennige sagst, es ist einbisschen komisch, oder?

aber habe ich nie gehört das vorher gesagt. auf deutsch. (richtig?)

Richtig. Es war komisch, und es gehört in der deutschen Sprache nicht

Auf Deutsch sagt man offensichtlich, "Um meinen Senf dazuzugeben" - "to add my mustard".


My grammar may be a bit off - I'm somewhat out of practice.

 

[whitay]

dein grammatik ist klar. Ich verstehe dich. Mein grammatik ist cacke.

ich habe noch mein brotchen gegessen. Leibst du die deutsche brot? Wir essen für frühstück, mittag und abend essen.

 

[Astronuc]

schon das weiss ich. Ich bin in deutschland. So, kann ich noch fragen euch über die Aussprache. Aber mit was mache ich hier, kann man nicht von buch lernen.

Ja! In meine meinung, man muss die Sprache hören und sprechen. Man muss die Sprache fühlen.

 

[Tony11235]

I once spoke spanish with a decent level of fluency but I have not spoken it much for the past 3-4 years. Though I can understand conversations. While I may have taken classes in it in high school, I didn't learn it in school. An aunt-like friend of the family taught me over the years, though there was self-study involved. I've self-studied and taken courses in Italian. Also after an intensive summer language program in Russian (where we met 6-7 hours a day every weekday for two months, no english aloud), I could speak "everyday" type Russian, enough of it to get around.
As many have already said, Pimsleur is probably the best method there is. It gives you a solid base of everyday words to rely upon and learn more from. I've used up to Russian II, though I now have Russian I-III. 4 years ago I started to study Mandarin on my own, then I took a year of it. For most of this summer I've been in Beijing. I think it's far to say I have a "everyday" type fluency. My only trouble really is the character situation. When I took a year of mandarin 3 years ago, we learned up to 500 characters, but they were traditional. Now 3 years later, I did not study the characters and I happen to be in Beijing which uses simplified characters. So I've been very slow on my reading. I have also fully completed Pimsleur Mandarin I-III. I wouldn't say it would give you fluency, but it will get you an ear for the language, as well as give you a necessary base to build on. There's more languages out there that I have studied, but I just never know whether it's a good idea to say you know them or not. The above 3 are about the only one's I would really mention.

As far as picking up a language, you don't necessarily have to go to the country of your language choice. Just find someone who speaks your targeted language and see if he/she is willing to spend some time helping you with your speech. It's better of course if they are friends. I myself used to be a language addict, though the habits are coming back which I guess is a good thing. I would do things like carry flash cards and/or a small notebook on me everyday, write down anything that I'm thinking or want to say but do not know how and ask your language friend how it is said, instead of music, listen to Pimsleur lessons, always go to bed thinking in your target language, and more...

 

[Astronuc]

Pimsleur Langauge Programs is produced/marketed by Simon & Schuster, and apparently available at some bookstores and Amazon.

For example - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0743550471/?tag=pfamazon01-20: Learn to Speak and Understand German with Pimsleur Langauge Programs (Simon & Schuster's Pimsleur)

I really don't know about much about the quality or effectiveness, since I haven't use one, but others seem satisifed. It seems to be a relatively inexpensive investment with which to start a language.

Berlitz and http://www.rosettastone.com/en/offer/cj2/esp?a=b show up a lot.

 

[NeoDevin]

Has anyone here actually tried the Rosetta Stone products? I was thinking about getting one a while ago to learn languages. If anyone has used them, I'd be interested to hear what you thought of it.

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

Yes I have also used Rosetta Stone. I enjoyed Pimsleur more, I think Rosetta is more vocabulary based. Let me give an example : In Rosetta Stone you are shown pictures of objects and the pronouncer pronounces the word describing that object in whatever language. So you learn how to say table, cat, dog, child, man, woman, whatever. But I found that it was lacking on the conversational side. But, if you could find someone to practice your conversational skills with, it might work. Pimsleur + Rosetta Stone may be the best way to go (I don't mean to push pimsleur, I haven't tried any others besides those two) Pimsleur is purely conversational so you learn how to say things like "Excuse me" "How do I get to blah blah" "Where is blah" and the needed "I'd like to order a beer please" phrase. So it makes up for Rosetta Stone's lack of that.

 

[Evo]

I haven't used Pimsluer, but I've heard it is the best.

When I learned Italian, I used a CIA training system used for training government employees to quickly learn a foreign language. It was great because it would tell you where to place your tongue and form your lips to rid yourself of sounding foreign, it made you aware of what made sounds natural to a language. Absolutely necessary, IMHO. LOTS of repitition. I got the tongue thing down, and just picked up the language while in their country.

 

[Gale]

The time it takes to learn a language depends a lot on the way you learn. Most colleges have around 5-6 levels. I took spanish in high school, and only took two levels. I'm in no way proficient, but i can usually communicate what i want in somewhat butchered spanish. Right now I'm teaching myself arabic. Most say not to bother learing to read and write it, but personally, i have an easier time understanding the sounds written in the native language. It will likely take me longer to get a fair grasp on the language, but once i figure it will be worth it in the long run anyway.

I also find watching childrens tv shows and reading childrens books is the easiest way to learn. Teaches you vocabulary, and its a good way to get a grasp of the language structure. Plus its fun. I still remember waching spanish seseme street.
"tres manzanas! uno, dos, tres manzanas!"
nothing like learning from muppets.

 

[JasonRox]

I haven't used Pimsluer, but I've heard it is the best.

When I learned Italian, I used a CIA training system used for training government employees to quickly learn a foreign language. It was great because it would tell you where to place your tongue and form your lips to rid yourself of sounding foreign, it made you aware of what made sounds natural to a language. Absolutely necessary, IMHO. LOTS of repitition. I got the tongue thing down, and just picked up the language while in their country.

Same with Pimsleur.

Our courses took 40 years to develop and are now used by the FBI, CIA, and business professionals everywhere.

From there website.

I'm really enjoying Pimsleur right now. I would say it's lacking the vocabulary part though, so I guess Rosetta Stone is an option.

Anyone have any idea how on to learn and where to learn writing standard Chinese? My school was suppose to offer Mandarin, but I guess they aren't this year.

 

[Ratzinger]

You language learners check out http://www.fsi-language-courses.com/".

And if you like to learn Chinese like myself you got the world greatest language learning website http://chinesepod.com/" .

 

[dontdisturbmycircles]

Does anyone know of a website for English speaking people to correspond with German speaking people? That would be interesting and might motivate me to finish the Pimsleur German course. I couldn't really find anything with Google. :-(

You language learners check out http://www.fsi-language-courses.com/".

Looks very useful, thanks.

 

[Astronuc]

There are numerous forums on languages, including German.

For example - http://www.phrasebase.com/forum/

This might be of interest -
http://www.fredriley.org.uk/call/langsite/german.html

See also - German Studies-Related Discussion Forums - at bottom of page
http://www.swan.ac.uk/german/links/maillist.htm

 

[JasonRox]

Best thread in awhile!

 

[whitay]

Vielen dank. I find the more i read about the anomilies of german the more i understand. But my speech is still somewhat textbook styled. I completely got something wrong, it was more or less a english to german word for word translation before. And my host sister corrected me and it was something i completely didnt expect. The words used just to what i wanted to say confused the pants off me for a few minutes. But i can't remember what i said, just remember being baffled.

 

[JasonRox]

Aren't there many different German dialects?

If so, which one or ones should you learn?

 

[whitay]

it depends on the country. Switzerland from what I've experienced by being there is that they just sound different. I think but not sure but Austria the language actually changes slightly or they use different words for somethings. But most younger generation german speaking people from whatever country can speak high german. Being in germany, i notice accents change dramatically From major city to small town and even from being in the Ruhr were the cities just join onto each other, there accents can change. I struggle alittle with the köln-düsseldorf accent.

 

[Astronuc]

Aren't there many different German dialects?

If so, which one or ones should you learn?

Most definitely.

In English countries, one would learn Hochdeutsch.
See - http://www.omniglot.com/writing/german.htm
Look toward the bottom of the page for additional links.

Schweizer Deutsch is different from dialects in Germany, and within Germany there are various dialects from e.g. Schwaben, Bayern, Baden, Norddeutschland. And Austrian is yet different as well.

See - http://www.woxikon.com/wort/Schwaben.php

I took a summer class in German during high school. One teacher used the formal Hochdeutsch, but his assistant mixed it with Austrian, where she lived for a year.

It's a bit like English variations on tap, faucet, spigot, cock, valve. Just pick up an English thesaurus.

See also - http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/index.htm

 

[radou]

Richtig. Es war komisch, und es gehört in der deutschen Sprache nicht

...nicht in die deutsche Sprache..

So, kann ich noch fragen euch über die Aussprache.

"Euch" comes before "noch".

Aber mit was mache ich hier, kann man nicht von buch lernen.

"ich hier" comes before "mache". And replace "von" with "aus dem".

 

[Astronuc]

...nicht in die deutsche Sprache..

Ja, thanks. I meant to correct, but got distracted.

 

[whitay]

thanks. didnt know i made mistakes. Going to wuppertal today.

Bis übermorgen.

 

[marlon]

WOW Astronuc, you got some great German skills there man.

BRAVO

marlon

 

[Astronuc]

WOW Astronuc, you got some great German skills there man.

It's gotten rusty without practice.

 

[JasonRox]

What do you guys think about learning two languages at once?

I was thinking of Cantonese and Italian right now. Later on I'll try Japanese and Spanish (Spanish in school).

I can already speak French, so I would assume my pronunciation skills from French and English as well as some grammar skills from French will help a long way with Italian and Spanish. I heard there were similar in some grammar aspects.

 

[JasonRox]

Any tips on finding where I can learn how to write Cantonese using simplified characters? (The common writing style.) I'm aware that's totally different than speaking Cantonese.

 

[JasonRox]

Any tips on finding where I can learn how to write Cantonese using simplified characters? (The common writing style.) I'm aware that's totally different than speaking Cantonese.

I found all the information regarding this.

Anyways, so I met someone who will be able to teach me Mandarin and the simplified characters in exchange for teaching English. Cute girl too!

 

[JeffN]

good deal, ahaha

 

[Gale]

Just to throw it out there...
Since I've been trying to learn arabic, I found a few videos on youtube.com that were helpful. Some people created a couple of series that teach it. I don't know that there'd be videos for every language, and most are pretty basic, but it really helped me. Oh, also, you can find all sorts of shows in other languages on youtube as well. So once you have some proficiency, that could be useful too.

 

[JasonRox]

Just to throw it out there...
Since I've been trying to learn arabic, I found a few videos on youtube.com that were helpful. Some people created a couple of series that teach it. I don't know that there'd be videos for every language, and most are pretty basic, but it really helped me. Oh, also, you can find all sorts of shows in other languages on youtube as well. So once you have some proficiency, that could be useful too.

I'm a long way from that.

I just found a chinese tutor in the area, which is awesome.

 

[Gale]

heh, I'm not at that level either. But I still like to listen, even if I don't understand yet.

Also, like I said there's loads of begininer vids. I checked, and there's a lot for mandarin. You should check them out.