Planetary Motion: Orbit Transfers, Hohmann transfer

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanics of planetary motion, specifically focusing on orbit transfers, particularly the Hohmann transfer method. Participants explore the energy dynamics involved in transitioning from elliptical to circular orbits, examining concepts such as effective potential energy and the role of propellant in these maneuvers.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the counterintuitive nature of increasing a satellite's speed to transfer to a lower energy circular orbit, referencing effective potential energy plots.
  • Another participant suggests considering the energy of the expelled propellant and notes that elliptical orbits exchange kinetic and potential energy, which may be key to understanding the energy dynamics.
  • A participant reflects on the conservation of energy in the system, including the satellite and expelled propellant, and considers the effects of external gravitational forces.
  • There is a discussion about the direction of thrust required for different stages of the transfer, highlighting the complexity of energy expenditure even when orbital energy remains constant.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the need for acceleration when transitioning to a circular orbit with the same energy as the original ellipse, raising questions about the energy dynamics of the expelled propellant.
  • A participant shares a diagram and insights from a professor regarding the effective potential energy curve for the Hohmann transfer, noting the exclusion of propellant in their analysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints and uncertainties regarding the energy dynamics of orbit transfers, with no consensus reached on the best approach to conceptualize these processes. Multiple competing ideas remain about the role of propellant and energy conservation.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the need to consider the energy of the reaction mass and the implications of thrust direction during the transfer process. There are unresolved questions about the relationship between energy expenditure and orbital dynamics, particularly regarding the role of expelled propellant.

Lost1ne
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The thought of increasing a satellite's (for example) speed to allow it to transfer from a "higher energy" elliptical orbit to a "lower energy" circular orbit (in reference to the effective potential energy plot that arises after introducing the concept of an effective mass to simplify the two-body problem into a one-body problem) seems a bit counterintuitive. It's easy to find this illogical with a circular orbit simply occurring at a lower energy level than an elliptical orbit in the effective potential energy plot.

Examining other equations such as ΔE = Δ(-C/A) (where C = GMm) clearly depicts mathematically why, in the final stage of the Hohmann transfer process, transferring to a circular orbit with a larger major axis requires an in-take of energy, gained through the rocket engine. However, how should this be viewed with respect to the effective potential energy plot (equal to [L^(2)[/[2μr^(2)] - (GMm)/r, with the remaining term being the kinetic energy from the radial velocity; μ is the effective mass, Mm/(M+m))? Would the best way to think of this be a shift in this graph due to the work done by the propellant force on the satellite (thus a new graph that allows for the new, final energy to take a circular orbit)?
 
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Don’t yet have a conclusive answer for you, but would like to see if we can work it out together. Just off the top of my head, have you included the energy of the reaction mass (the expelled propellant) in your thinking? Also, since an elliptical orbit continuously exchanges kinetic energy for potential, the total of the two remains nearly constant, and that may be the key to understanding this. Will spend some time trying to flesh out these ideas and come back to see this thread again later.
 
LURCH said:
Don’t yet have a conclusive answer for you, but would like to see if we can work it out together. Just off the top of my head, have you included the energy of the reaction mass (the expelled propellant) in your thinking?

Oooh. I don't think I thought too much about that actually. I guess I'm then encouraged to think of the "flow mass" portion of this problem? If I choose my system to be the satellite and any propellant that is exerted, I'm assuming that the energy in that system would be conserved. However, our concern should be with the energy of the satellite after it loses a bit of propellant over some time duration and then experiences some change of velocity as a result of it. The net external force on this system would be the gravity exerted on the system by the massive mass that the system is orbiting. Am I on the right track? Is it encouraged to think of the problem in this manner to answer my question more effectively? I'll return to this later.
 
I do believe that is the right track to follow. Was able to think about it a little, and I noticed that the Transfer burn for rounding out an orbit at the top of the ellipse requires thrust in the opposite direction from the burn required for keeping the satellite at the bottom of the ellipse. The propellant gets thrown into higher orbit when the satellite settles into a lower one, and vice versa. That seems like an important clue.

My only hesitation comes when considering that, even when settling into a round orbit with the exact same energy as the original ellipse, an acceleration is still required. That one has got me puzzled, because no orbital energy has been gained or lost, yet we had to expend energy to get there. Will continue to ponder, and return later (I’m at work, browsing the Forums during my breaks).
 
LURCH said:
My only hesitation comes when considering that, even when settling into a round orbit with the exact same energy as the original ellipse, an acceleration is still required. That one has got me puzzled, because no orbital energy has been gained or lost, yet we had to expend energy to get there.
If the craft (not counting the propellant expelled in the whole maneuver) gains no energy, and you lose chemical energy, then the expelled propellant must have gained it (the propellant has more KE+PE than it had originally in the tank).
 
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Ah yes, that’s the piece I was missing. Thanks A.T.
 
I've created a diagram.
JmM230i
https://imgur.com/a/JmM230i
XW1xIm6.png

After discussing this with my professor, this is what we concluded the effective potential energy curve should look like (assuming it's correct). This would apply to the Hohmann transfer orbit where our craft transfers from an elliptical orbit to a circular orbit where the craft is accelerated tangentially (thus, angular momentum increases) into a circular orbit when at the apogee of the elliptical orbit. The apogee of the elliptical orbit is equal to the radius of our circular orbit, all measured from the more massive, "stationary" object that our craft is orbiting about. My professor didn't mention the flow mass aspect of this problem, but I believe that the system analyzed in our curve will be the craft, excluding the propellant released.
 

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