News Polish president dies in plane crash

[fuzzyfelt]

My condolences to everyone concerned.

 

[Borek]

I am not going to translate large parts of the Polish internet, but hyenas already started their concert, to build on the incident. This is sick.

 

[mheslep]

Condolences to all our Polish PF'ers.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I am not going to translate large parts of the Polish internet, but hyenas already started their concert, to build on the incident. This is sick.

Do you mean morbid photos, already placing blame, or politcal junk? Hell, all three are going on in the US media... ...and all three are so very human. I'm sorry though, it must be upsetting, and tiring; then again, it beats being one of the jackals. I am sorry though... maybe some Russian script-kiddies could make a gesture of good will by DDOS'ing their connections into low Earth orbit.

 

[Borg]

I've been very surprised at the national news here in the states because international news like this usually doesn't last long. They still were showing stories about it last night. I also saw on the news that President Obama will be attending the state funeral this weekend.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I've been very surprised at the national news here in the states because international news like this usually doesn't last long. They still were showing stories about it last night. I also saw on the news that President Obama will be attending the state funeral this weekend.

Yes, it's impressive that they haven't switched back to tiger woods. *groan*. It's always good to see our country holding its attention span long enough to appreciate the magnitude of this, not just as a loss of life, but skill and leadership. Ah well...

 

[GeorginaS]

My condolences to the families and friends of the people involved.

The hyenas are impressive if for no other reason than the magnitude of their absolute crassness. I'm sorry that some people have to be jerks the world over, Borek.

 

[waht]

I'm wondering who suggested to bury the president at Wawel right next to the Polish kings? Or is it just a common practice to bury all leaders there?

 

[Borek]

No, it is not a common practice and there is a lot of fuss about it. With all due respect plenty of people here thinks he was not as good a president to be buried in this place. Many other, honorable places (like Alley of Merit at Warsaw Powązki cemetery), which will not raise an eyebrow.

At the moment everyone asked about whose idea it was points finger to others.

 

[mgb_phys]

I'm wondering who suggested to bury the president at Wawel right next to the Polish kings?

Somebody who slightly misjudged public feeling ?

Same thing happened in the UK when Princess Di died.
The royal family got it for sticking to 'correct' protocol and apparently under-reacting when everyone in public was busy over-reacting.
Then the politicians got it for trying to muscle in on the event for the media screentime.

Or is it just a common practice to bury all leaders there?

Apparently not http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8620415.stm

 

[waht]

No, it is not a common practice and there is a lot of fuss about it. With all due respect plenty of people here thinks he was not as good a president to be buried in this place. Many other, honorable places (like Alley of Merit at Warsaw Powązki cemetery), which will not raise an eyebrow.

At the moment everyone asked about whose idea it was points finger to others.

That was my feeling about him he wasn't popular. But can the growth of Polish economy during the world recession be linked to him?

Somebody who slightly misjudged public feeling ?

Yes, big time.

But Mr Wajda said the decision "will spark protests and could cause the deepest splits in Polish society since 1989".

Same thing happened in the UK when Princess Di died.
The royal family got it for sticking to 'correct' protocol and apparently under-reacting when everyone in public was busy over-reacting.
Then the politicians got it for trying to muscle in on the event for the media screentime.

There was an element of publicity.

 

[Borek]

That was my feeling about him he wasn't popular. But can the growth of Polish economy during the world recession be linked to him?

No. And it has nothing to do with his actions or lack of these, in Poland presidential prerogatives are rather limited, it is prime minister and government who has the executive power and tools.

President can vote bills and - in a way - that's his most important tool. President can also propose new bills, but they have to pass through both Parliament and Senate, where they can be modified. President also appoints ministers and ambassadors, but he doesn't select them, they are proposed by prime minister. That's not all, but IMHO that is enough to help you understand the legal situation.

 

[waht]

No. And it has nothing to do with his actions or lack of these, in Poland presidential prerogatives are rather limited, it is prime minister and government who has the executive power and tools.

President can vote bills and - in a way - that's his most important tool. President can also propose new bills, but they have to pass through both Parliament and Senate, where they can be modified. President also appoints ministers and ambassadors, but he doesn't select them, they are proposed by prime minister. That's not all, but IMHO that is enough to help you understand the legal situation.

Yes, that makes sense.

 

[player1_1_1]

He was very good politician, he was my President, we choosed him to be our President and I liked him very much. It is very good idea to bury him on Wawel because he was one of the best. I can't understand anyone who says he shouldn't be buried here - if I lived in Krakow, I would join contrmanifestation.

 

[turbo]

Obama's trip to Poland is officially off, due to volcanic ash. He was to have left DC tonight, but volcanic activity increased early this morning, and shows no signs of abating anytime soon.

 

[waht]

Looks like Obama, and other presidents canceled their visit to Kaczynski's funeral because the whole of Europe is paralyzed from the volcano's ash clouds.

 

[Borek]

He was very good politician, he was my President, we choosed him to be our President and I liked him very much. It is very good idea to bury him on Wawel because he was one of the best. I can't understand anyone who says he shouldn't be buried here - if I lived in Krakow, I would join contrmanifestation.

He was elected to be the President, nobody denies it. But democracy is about having different points of view, so don't be surprised that not everyone share yours. All polls I have seen on the internet show that majority is against the idea.

At the moment looks like the decision to bury Lech Kaczyński on Wawel has made itself. Everyone asked by journalists tells that he didn't made the decision, someone else did. For me this is kind of a signal. As they say - success has many fathers, while failure is an orphan.

 

[MotoH]

In Warsaw:

 

[Frame Dragger]

I think Poland has shown itself to be remarkably strong and especially put on a good showing of its moral character in this last week. Today especially, was tough to see, but good too in a way.

@MotoH: Good choices for the pics. You have a very keen sense of what is appropriate, and when. It's sad to see, but thanks for posting them. I'd rather see things this way than with some news anchor chattering over a somber affair.

 

[player1_1_1]

majority was always against him. It was very iritating that so much people was laughing always when he did a little mistake. there were so many attacks in press and in tv, even in Deutschland where they called them "potato"! people can not stop criticising him even after his death. but he will always be my President - no one else!

 

[Borek]

majority was always against him.

Actually at least once majority was for, not against - he was elected.

 

[Frame Dragger]

The GERMANS called him a "potato?! Shouldn't they still be apologizing for... I don't know... "Fall Weiß"?! I usually like a good century between massive invasions before a country starts to denegrate a head of state... call me old fashioned.

Anyway, I think anyone with a TV or radio knows that most of the Polish people are grieving, if not for the man, then the office and country. Then again, there are the hyenas mentioned earlier. *no smiley exists to express murderous fury on this site, but there should be*

 

[Borek]

The GERMANS called him a "potato?!

In 2006.

American president is being called much worse names on the daily basis, isn't he? I am afraid that's part of the job description.

 

[turbo]

In 2006.

American president is being called much worse names on the daily basis, isn't he? I am afraid that's part of the job description.

Yes, and in public, and on signs and posters being waved around by racists at so-called Tea Parties.

 

[MotoH]

Yes, and in public, and on signs and posters being waved around by racists at so-called Tea Parties.

It happened during both of Bush's terms. But that wasn't racist because white people can't be discriminated against. Only white people can be racist. When blacks and minorities say something, it is freedom of speech.

 

[mgb_phys]

The GERMANS called him a "potato?!

To be fair the Germans are rather fond of potatos - it's like an American calling you a hamburger, you aren't sure if you should be offended or not!

 

[Frame Dragger]

To be fair the Germans are rather fond of potatos - it's like an American calling you a hamburger, you aren't sure if you should be offended or not!

I'm insulted if it's someone from Frankfurter calling me a Hamburger!

 

[turbo]

I'm insulted if it's someone from Frankfurter calling me a Hamburger!

How about if someone from Hamburg called you... never mind.

 

[Frame Dragger]

How about if someone from Hamburg called you... never mind.

I can't believe I just laughed on this thread, but... frankly I could use the levity.

 

[mheslep]

Yes, and in public, and on signs and posters being waved around by racists at so-called Tea Parties.

Yep, all the time:
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_anti-war_rally_oct_27_2007/passive-aggressive_syndrome/IMG_9676.JPG
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_april_10_2004/characters/120-2044_IMG.JPG
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/BushWhackerElMarco.jpg
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/imheretokillbush.jpg
http://www.voxfux.com/archives/voxfux-nwo.jpg

 

[Borek]

Final MAK report: http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2010/files/tu154m_101/finalreport_eng.pdf

Report is devastating for Polish side - which is unfortunately not surprising, Polish investigation (not finished yet) points at the same problems with flight preparation and procedures. They should not try to land, some say they should even not start from Warsaw. Sad. I must admit I feel ashamed, it pushes us too far in the direction of some 3rd world country.

However, Russians did all to ignore possible problems on their side, especially problems with their air traffic control. Polish pilots were pressured to land, that's mentioned in the report. Judging from the partial information we (Poles) have Russian air traffic controllers were under pressure too (from their superiors) to not close the airport no matter what the weather was, as that could end in international scandal - but it is not mentioned in the report. Also there are conflicting reports whether ATC should allow landing approach, or not - it is not clear what procedures should be used.

On December 19th Polish side sent over http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2010/files/tu154m_101/comment_polsk.pdf to the initial version of the report, which were mostly ignored in the final report. Part of the document sent to Moscow is a list of documents and informations describing ATC procedures and regulations that we wanted to see since the investigation started - we didn't get almost nothing (you may check the table at the very beginning of the document - pages 5 to 25, "nie" means "no" and each time it starts content of the right column it means our request was ignored or denied this way or another). Russians did the test flight around the airport, to check correct functioning of all devices there, but Polish representatives were not allowed on board. There is more. I am far from conspiracy theories, but I can't help it, it sounds like a classic case of hiding something, and making our pilots scapegoats. After all, they can't defend themselves.

 

[turbo]

We got a truncated version of that on the news last night, Borek. The repost cited unreasonable pressure on the cockpit crew to land, but no details about how and why such pressure might have been applied.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Report is devastating for Polish side.

Still, it's better than over here. At least you're not calling for a ban on airplanes.

 

[Borek]

We got a truncated version of that on the news last night, Borek. The repost cited unreasonable pressure on the cockpit crew to land, but no details about how and why such pressure might have been applied.

"Why" is clear - there was no time for landing somewhere else, that would mean canceling the ceremony. "How" is less clear to me, but I don't know details too well.

 

[mheslep]

Final MAK report: http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2010/files/tu154m_101/finalreport_eng.pdf

Report is devastating for Polish side - which is unfortunately not surprising, Polish investigation (not finished yet) points at the same problems with flight preparation and procedures. They should not try to land, some say they should even not start from Warsaw. Sad. I must admit I feel ashamed, it pushes us too far in the direction of some 3rd world country.

For what it is worth I'd say with that statement and the frank report you and yours rise above the usual games played by third world countries, as recognizing a problem is the first step to fixing them. The third world country as we know lays blame on dis, dat, and d' otta ting.

 

[Borek]

recognizing a problem is the first step to fixing them

I thought the same after CASA accident. Unfortunately, seems like not much changed since.

 

[NobodySpecial]

The third world country as we know lays blame on dis, dat, and d' otta ting.

While first world countries blame the dead pilots and then classify everything top secret - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Scotland_RAF_Chinook_crash

 

[Evo]

While first world countries blame the dead pilots and then classify everything top secret - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Scotland_RAF_Chinook_crash

Please point out where everything was classified top secret, I don't see it.

 

[NobodySpecial]

Please point out where everything was classified top secret, I don't see it.

RAF documents saying that the new engine management software was crap - but they didn't want to say anything in case it upset their allies were leaked to the press, but the inquiry ruled they were inadmissible because they couldn't be published. A bunch of FoI requests by the family of the pilots have been rejected for various 'commercially sensitive' and 'national security' reasons.

It's been a bit of a political football for years between the new Scottish parliament, supporters of the pilots families and the government.

The general air of cover-up hasn't been helped by the claim at a bunch of other inquiries that every member of the security forces involved in anything slightly naughty in Northern Ireland for the last 40years was onboard that flight - while anybody still alive is completely innocent.

 

[Borek]

Perhaps the best comment so far, summing up the situation - report shows the truth. Unfortunately, it shows only Polish half of the truth.

 

[russ_watters]

Sad. I must admit I feel ashamed, it pushes us too far in the direction of some 3rd world country.

Don't. All it really proves is politicians in Poland are so arrogant that they think they are more powerful and important than the weather. I doubt anyone would be surprised to learn that Polish politicians are the same as politicians in other countries!

 

[arildno]

Don't. All it really proves is politicians in Poland are so arrogant that they think they are more powerful and important than the weather. I doubt anyone would be surprised to learn that Polish politicians are the same as politicians in other countries!

I'm not sure about that.
If true, it shows a worrying tendency of politically sub-ordinates to follow the irrational orders of their superior.

It is a reason why captains on ship and in planes are given supreme authority there:
Because they, and only they, know what is the safest way to complete the journey.

That the Polish pilots did NOT have that mentality ingrained IS worrying.

They should have criticized the politicos for interference in their jobs.
They did not.

 

[russ_watters]

That's easier said than done sometimes, arildno - whether the pilot is in charge or not, the politician still has the power to destroy their career.

 

[arildno]

That's easier said than done sometimes, arildno - whether the pilot is in charge or not, the politician still has the power to destroy their career.

In particular in countries with a strong authoritarian streak.

I may be mistaken, but I do think that Mr. Obama would have shut up in a similar situation, and let his pilots do the navigation&landing job.
Even if it meant he couldn't participate in a deeply symbolic remembrance act for his nation.

And, I think, Obama would have been shut down, if he showed himself as irrational&irresponsible as the Polis President seems to have been.Functional authoritarianism requires the ideological co-operation of both the superior and the inferior. Sadly, authoritarianism seems to function quite well in preserving itself as a cultural pattern...

 

[Andre]

I read the report and I understand your concerns, Borek, but it doesn't look good indeed.

A few thoughts,

It is not uncommon to practice trial approaches. Air Traffic control is not to prohibit that for safety concerns. They can however prohibit an aircraft to land, but this is only done normally if the runway is unsuitable to land, icing, aqua plaining etc etc. Weather is not a reason to prohibit such. I'm sorry, but I have to remark that I don't think that air traffic control could be blamed for anything.

The allegation that there would be no fuel for an approach at the destination followed by a diversion to the alternate is very strange. That is an elementary basic legal requirement for flight planning, which should also include extra fuel for delay in holding patterns.

The narrative about the events in the cockpit as of page 99 is hair raising, really. I could go into a lot of detail but the summary would be a total lack of airmanship.

The double standards of who is in command (the "main passenger", or the captain) is a classic. We had to explain our army generals all the time that the pilot could not be diciplined for not executing military orders, when safety is a concern and why that was stated explicitely in the flying laws rules and regulations.

 

[Andre]

That's easier said than done sometimes, arildno - whether the pilot is in charge or not, the politician still has the power to destroy their career.

Yes but leading politicians usually have not reached their positions by being dumb and rancorous. It's usually possible to explain them that there was no alternative. Good politicans are often good sports.

 

[Borek]

It is not uncommon to practice trial approaches. Air Traffic control is not to prohibit that for safety concerns. They can however prohibit an aircraft to land, but this is only done normally if the runway is unsuitable to land, icing, aqua plaining etc etc. Weather is not a reason to prohibit such. I'm sorry, but I have to remark that I don't think that air traffic control could be blamed for anything.

I don't know enough about details, so I am mostly repeating what was told by people that I usually find reasonable. There is some ambiguity and confusion here. There is some difference between military and civilian airports, and military and civilian flights. This is a military airport and from what I understand ATC had the option to close it (and if it was any Russian military flight they would be told to fly somewhere else), but he was afraid of doing it to avoid the scandal. He tried to contact his superiors calling them in Moscow, looking for help, but they never answered his calls.

Note that this confusion is part of the problem. Polish side asked for details about procedures that should be applied, as information our experts got from Russians was incomplete and they wanted to clarify the situation. Russians never gave them access to documents where these procedures are described. That's the simplest method of starting speculation that they are hiding something, even if they don't.

 

[arildno]

It might well be that inflexibility on the Russian side was part of the problem.
That should not be swept under the carpet, if true.

 

[Andre]

I don't know enough about details, so I am mostly repeating what was told by people that I usually find reasonable. There is some ambiguity and confusion here. There is some difference between military and civilian airports, and military and civilian flights. This is a military airport and from what I understand ATC had the option to close it (and if it was any Russian military flight they would be told to fly somewhere else), but he was afraid of doing it to avoid the scandal. He tried to contact his superiors calling them in Moscow, looking for help, but they never answered his calls.

Note that this confusion is part of the problem. Polish side asked for details about procedures that should be applied, as information our experts got from Russians was incomplete and they wanted to clarify the situation. Russians never gave them access to documents where these procedures are described. That's the simplest method of starting speculation that they are hiding something, even if they don't.

Yes I understand the complications and I'm aware about different rules in Eastern countries. Nevertheless "state" flights get some priority and are not necessarily subject to routine procedures. And also flight safety is the ultimate responsibility of the pilot in command.

Maybe I should elaborate a little about the chain of events. Final approaches in instrument flying conditions (clouds) can be done with precision and non precision approach type. Due to limitations the latter had to be executed. This means that there is no glidepath information and required height in the descent must be correlated with distance to go.

The report mentions that the descent was started too late which resulted in a too steep descent, which brought the aircraft in a position in which a "go around" became impossible, after the crew had ignored all signs of problems, like ground proximity warning and descending below "altitude of airdrome minima". However this terminology is ambiguous for the following reasons:

To a precision approach is tied the "decision height", at which the decision must be made to continue to land or to 'go around'. This means that in the process of going around the aircraft will descend slightly below the DH before the engines pick up and the climb is initiated. But this was a non precision approach and to a non-precision approach is tied the Minimum Descent Altitude to which an aircraft may descent. Hence it should have leveled off there when the runway was not in sight. Then it is allowed to continue level flight, ultimately until the "missed approach point", and resume descending when the runway gets in sight and a safe landing can still be made from that position.

Hence in this mishap, the critical error was descending below minimum descent altitude before the runway was in sight. That should never ever have happened regardless of anybody doing this or that, guilt this or that.

 

[Borek]

http://www.mswia.gov.pl/portal/pl/2/9282/Raport_koncowy_w_sprawie_ustalenia_okolicznosci_i_przyczyn_katastrofy_samolotu_T.html

Final report of the Committee for Investigation of National Aviation Accidents into the causes and circumstances of the Tu-154M plane crash (tail number 101) in Smoleńsk

On 29 July 2011 the Committee for Investigation of National Aviation Accidents presented the final report into the causes and circumstances of the Tu-154M plane crash (tail number 101) in Smoleńsk.

It is not the Committee's responsibility to find anyone guilty or hold anyone responsible for the plane crash. The aim of the Committee was to determinate the circumstances and causes of the plane crash, draft recommendations and draw conclusions on how to avoid such accidents in the future.

Final report of the Polish Commitee

Annexes to the report

Summary:

On the basis of the studies and analysis performed, the Committee established that the immediate cause of the accident was the descent below the minimum descent altitude at an excessive rate of descent in weather conditions which prevented visual contact with the ground, as well as a delayed execution of the go-around procedure. Those circumstances led to an impact on a terrain obstacle resulting in separation of a part of the left wing with aileron and consequently to the loss of aircraft control and eventual ground impact.

Circumstances Contributing to the Accident

1. Failure to monitor altitude by means of a pressure altimeter during a non-precision approach;
2. failure by the crew to respond to the PULL UP warning generated by the TAWS;
3. attempt to execute the go-around maneuver under the control of ABSU (automatic go-around);
4. Approach Control confirming to the crew the correct position of the airplane in relation to the RWY threshold, glide slope, and course which might have affirmed the crew's belief that the approach was proceeding correctly although the airplane was actually outside the permissible deviation margin;
5. failure by landing zone controller (LZC)to inform the crew about descending below the glide slope and delayed issuance of the level-out command;
6. incorrect training of the Tu-154M flight crews in the 36 Regiment.

3.2.3. Conducive circumstances

1. incorrect coordination of the crew's work, which placed an excessive burden on the aircraft commander in the final phase of the flight;
2. insufficient flight preparation of the crew;
3. the crew‘s insufficient knowledge of the airplane's systems and their limitations;
4. inadequate cross-monitoring among the crew members and failure to respond to the mistakes committed;
5. crew composition inadequate for the task;
6. ineffective immediate supervision of the 36 Regiment's flight training process by the Air Force Command;
7. failure by the 36 Regiment to develop procedures governing the crew's actions in the event of:
   • failure to meet the established approach criteria;
   • using radio altimeter for establishing alarm altitude values for various types of approach;
   • distribution of duties in a multi-crew flight.
8. sporadic performance of flight support duties by LZC over the last 12 months, in particular under difficult Weather Conditions, and lack of practical experience as LZC at the SMOLENSK NORTH airfield.

I haven't read the report yet, I plan to at least skim it (time permitting). Summary was taken from some other document (also published on the Ministry of the Interior and Administration page).