Polish president dies in plane crash

[MotoH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QE9EPZdw5s

 

[Frame Dragger]

With all due respect - no. No idea about whom you may be thinking, but none of the priests aboard was widely known. I think I have heard about two of them earlier. For sure they were not random people, but some of them were well known only in their circles. Please remember that important part of the delegation were people representing so called Katyń families - and while the group is well known here, individual members are not necesarilly recognizable.

Ahhh.. I apologize, I'm going only by media reports. As for respect, don't worry, I'm not religious, but I was under the impression that modern Poland is very devoutly Catholic. So, I made assumptions, with predictable results. I do know about the massacre, and the modern delegation... it's surreal that this happened.

EDIT: I've been thinking about what to compare this to in the USA... and the only thing I can imagine would be a delegation of surviving WWII veterans, all dying in a crash. There is a loss of historical contuinity here, that is just too sudden.

 

[MotoH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4C0q2FBURY

 

[rewebster]

what a terrible thing to happen---what a sad day for Poland

 

[MotoH]

[PLAIN]http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3217/cialoprezydentawrocilo4.jpg

[PLAIN]http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2386/cialoprezydentawrocilo4n.jpg

[PLAIN]http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9581/cialoprezydentawrocilo4z.jpg

[PLAIN]http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6672/z7759124x.jpg

[PLAIN]http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/372/cialoprezydentawrocilo4pn.jpg

[PLAIN]http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4523/cialoprezydentawrocilo4j.jpg

 

[Frame Dragger]

Oh lord... At least the Polish people are incredibly strong and resiliant. Still, this is something no country or family should endure.

 

[player1_1_1]

I am from Poland, and it was very sad for me hearing that our president and many important officials died in crash... 70 years after soviets killed twenty thousands of our high officers. This place will be a double historical symbol for us. When I heard I couldn't believe this... it will be a huge lost for our minds, and for country - they were our most elite representatives... rest in peace [*]

 

[Borek]

Russian main TV stations showed movie "Katyń" by Wajda today in prime time. In few hours they did more to tell Russian people about the massacre than in the last 70 years.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Russian main TV stations showed movie "Katyń" by Wajda today in prime time. In few hours they did more to tell Russian people about the massacre than in the last 70 years.

That is a bitter irony, but perhaps it might comfort the relatives of the Katyn delegation. At this point, any source of solace has to be worth it, within reason for Poland and for those most immidiately effected.

 

[MotoH]

The victims:

President of the Republic of Poland - Lech Kaczynski and his wife - Maria Kaczynska
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4928/pap201001211092.jpg

Maciej Płażyński, Senator, Deputy Speaker of Senate

KRZYSZTOF PUTRA, DEPUTY SPEAKER OF THE LOWER HOUSE - Law and Justice MP

JERZY SZMAJDINSKI, DEPUTY SPEAKER OF THE LOWER HOUSE - Demorcatic Left Alliance MP

RYSZARD KACZOROWSKI, FORMER PRESIDENT-IN-EXILE

Andrzej Przewoznik - President of the Council for the Protection of Struggle and Martyrdom Sites

Krupski Janusz, Head of the Office for Veterans and Victims Affairs

Stasiak Władysław, Head – Office of the President

Kurtyka Janusz, Chairman National Remembrance Institute

Kochanowski Janusz, Civil Rights Ombundsman

Skrzypek Slawomir - Head of the National Bank of Poland

Merta Tomasz, Under-secretary of State Ministry of Culture and National Heritage

Komorowski Stanisław Jerzy, Undersecretary of State Ministry of Defence

Kremer Andrzej, Undersecretary of State Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Bochenek Krystyna, Deputy Speaker of the Lower House of Parliament

General Buk Tadeusz, Commander in Chief of the Polish Army

General Blasik Andrzej, Commander in Chief of the Air Force

General Gągor Franciszek, Chief of Staff of the Polish Army

General Gilarski Kazimierz, Commander of the Warsaw Garrison

General Potasiński Włodzimierz, Commander in Chief of the Polish Special Forces

General Kwiatkowski Bronisław, Operational Commander Polish Army

Rear Admiral Karweta Andrzej, Commander in Chief of the Polish Navy

Handzlik Mariusz, Undersecretary of State Office of the President

Wypych Paweł, Secretary of State Office of the President

Szczygło Aleksander, Head National Security Office

 

[MotoH]

Rumianek Ryszard, Rector Cardinal Stefan Wyszynski University

Agacka-Indecka Joanna, Chair of the Polish Bar Council

Fetlińska Janina, Senator - (PiS) Law And Justice

Zając Stanisław, Senator - (PiS) Law and Justice

Wojtas Edward, MP (PSL) Polish Peoples Party

Woda Wiesław, MP (PSL) Polish Peoples Party

Karpiniuk Sebastian, MP (PO) Civic Platform

Rybicki Arkadiusz, MP (PO) Civic Platform

Deptula Leszek, MP (PSL) Polish Peoples Party

Natalli-Świat Aleksandra, MP (PiS) Law and Justice

Jaruga-Nowacka Izabela, MP (SLD) Democratic Left Alliance

Dolniak Grzegorz, MP (PO) Civic Platform

Gosiewski Przemysław, MP (PiS) Law and Justice

Szymanek-Deresz Jolanta, MP (SLD) Democratic Left Alliance

Wasserman Zbigniew, MP (PiS) Law and Justice

Gęsicka Grażyna, MP (PIS) Law and Justice

Nurowski Piotr, Head of the Polish Olympic Comitee (PKOL)

Osiński Jan, Field Chaplain Polish Army

Chodakowski Miron, Russian Orthodox Chaplain of the Polish Army

Płoski Tadeusz, Field Chaplain Polish Army

 

[Frame Dragger]

You're a good person MotoH.

EDIT: Oh lord, some of those people's knowledge and talent can't be replaced anytime soon, if at all. I can honestly say I'm glad that my grandmother is not alive to see this.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Thank you for the pictures, Motoh. I'm astounded by the loss of all these people, and I'm so sorry Borek, for you and for Poland.

 

[waht]

People here in Chicago put up Polish flags on their cars, and lighted lots of candles. There is just so much support everywhere, and not just from the Polish people, but from Americans which project so much genuine sympathy to the loss.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I don't know that there has been a decaptitating strike in history as devestating as this tragic accient! I mean... the heads of ALL branches of the service?! Maybe Vlad Tepes came close, but that was sysematic slaughter (not to mention his inauguration).

 

[fuzzyfelt]

My condolences to everyone concerned.

 

[Borek]

I am not going to translate large parts of the Polish internet, but hyenas already started their concert, to build on the incident. This is sick.

 

[mheslep]

Condolences to all our Polish PF'ers.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I am not going to translate large parts of the Polish internet, but hyenas already started their concert, to build on the incident. This is sick.

Do you mean morbid photos, already placing blame, or politcal junk? Hell, all three are going on in the US media... :grumpy: ...and all three are so very human. I'm sorry though, it must be upsetting, and tiring; then again, it beats being one of the jackals. I am sorry though... maybe some Russian script-kiddies could make a gesture of good will by DDOS'ing their connections into low Earth orbit.

 

[Borg]

I've been very surprised at the national news here in the states because international news like this usually doesn't last long. They still were showing stories about it last night. I also saw on the news that President Obama will be attending the state funeral this weekend.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I've been very surprised at the national news here in the states because international news like this usually doesn't last long. They still were showing stories about it last night. I also saw on the news that President Obama will be attending the state funeral this weekend.

Yes, it's impressive that they haven't switched back to tiger woods. *groan*. It's always good to see our country holding its attention span long enough to appreciate the magnitude of this, not just as a loss of life, but skill and leadership. Ah well...

 

[GeorginaS]

My condolences to the families and friends of the people involved.

The hyenas are impressive if for no other reason than the magnitude of their absolute crassness. I'm sorry that some people have to be jerks the world over, Borek.

 

[waht]

I'm wondering who suggested to bury the president at Wawel right next to the Polish kings? Or is it just a common practice to bury all leaders there?

 

[Borek]

No, it is not a common practice and there is a lot of fuss about it. With all due respect plenty of people here thinks he was not as good a president to be buried in this place. Many other, honorable places (like Alley of Merit at Warsaw Powązki cemetery), which will not raise an eyebrow.

At the moment everyone asked about whose idea it was points finger to others.

 

[mgb_phys]

I'm wondering who suggested to bury the president at Wawel right next to the Polish kings?

Somebody who slightly misjudged public feeling ?

Same thing happened in the UK when Princess Di died.
The royal family got it for sticking to 'correct' protocol and apparently under-reacting when everyone in public was busy over-reacting.
Then the politicians got it for trying to muscle in on the event for the media screentime.

Or is it just a common practice to bury all leaders there?

Apparently not http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8620415.stm

 

[waht]

No, it is not a common practice and there is a lot of fuss about it. With all due respect plenty of people here thinks he was not as good a president to be buried in this place. Many other, honorable places (like Alley of Merit at Warsaw Powązki cemetery), which will not raise an eyebrow.

At the moment everyone asked about whose idea it was points finger to others.

That was my feeling about him he wasn't popular. But can the growth of Polish economy during the world recession be linked to him?

Somebody who slightly misjudged public feeling ?

Yes, big time.

But Mr Wajda said the decision "will spark protests and could cause the deepest splits in Polish society since 1989".

Same thing happened in the UK when Princess Di died.
The royal family got it for sticking to 'correct' protocol and apparently under-reacting when everyone in public was busy over-reacting.
Then the politicians got it for trying to muscle in on the event for the media screentime.

There was an element of publicity.

 

[Borek]

That was my feeling about him he wasn't popular. But can the growth of Polish economy during the world recession be linked to him?

No. And it has nothing to do with his actions or lack of these, in Poland presidential prerogatives are rather limited, it is prime minister and government who has the executive power and tools.

President can vote bills and - in a way - that's his most important tool. President can also propose new bills, but they have to pass through both Parliament and Senate, where they can be modified. President also appoints ministers and ambassadors, but he doesn't select them, they are proposed by prime minister. That's not all, but IMHO that is enough to help you understand the legal situation.

 

[waht]

No. And it has nothing to do with his actions or lack of these, in Poland presidential prerogatives are rather limited, it is prime minister and government who has the executive power and tools.

President can vote bills and - in a way - that's his most important tool. President can also propose new bills, but they have to pass through both Parliament and Senate, where they can be modified. President also appoints ministers and ambassadors, but he doesn't select them, they are proposed by prime minister. That's not all, but IMHO that is enough to help you understand the legal situation.

Yes, that makes sense.

 

[player1_1_1]

He was very good politician, he was my President, we choosed him to be our President and I liked him very much. It is very good idea to bury him on Wawel because he was one of the best. I can't understand anyone who says he shouldn't be buried here - if I lived in Krakow, I would join contrmanifestation.

 

[turbo]

Obama's trip to Poland is officially off, due to volcanic ash. He was to have left DC tonight, but volcanic activity increased early this morning, and shows no signs of abating anytime soon.

 

[waht]

Looks like Obama, and other presidents canceled their visit to Kaczynski's funeral because the whole of Europe is paralyzed from the volcano's ash clouds.

 

[Borek]

He was very good politician, he was my President, we choosed him to be our President and I liked him very much. It is very good idea to bury him on Wawel because he was one of the best. I can't understand anyone who says he shouldn't be buried here - if I lived in Krakow, I would join contrmanifestation.

He was elected to be the President, nobody denies it. But democracy is about having different points of view, so don't be surprised that not everyone share yours. All polls I have seen on the internet show that majority is against the idea.

At the moment looks like the decision to bury Lech Kaczyński on Wawel has made itself. Everyone asked by journalists tells that he didn't made the decision, someone else did. For me this is kind of a signal. As they say - success has many fathers, while failure is an orphan.

 

[MotoH]

In Warsaw:

 

[Frame Dragger]

I think Poland has shown itself to be remarkably strong and especially put on a good showing of its moral character in this last week. Today especially, was tough to see, but good too in a way.

@MotoH: Good choices for the pics. You have a very keen sense of what is appropriate, and when. It's sad to see, but thanks for posting them. I'd rather see things this way than with some news anchor chattering over a somber affair.

 

[player1_1_1]

majority was always against him. It was very iritating that so much people was laughing always when he did a little mistake. there were so many attacks in press and in tv, even in Deutschland where they called them "potato"! people can not stop criticising him even after his death. but he will always be my President - no one else!