Polish president dies in plane crash

[waht]

No, it is not a common practice and there is a lot of fuss about it. With all due respect plenty of people here thinks he was not as good a president to be buried in this place. Many other, honorable places (like Alley of Merit at Warsaw Powązki cemetery), which will not raise an eyebrow.

At the moment everyone asked about whose idea it was points finger to others.

That was my feeling about him he wasn't popular. But can the growth of Polish economy during the world recession be linked to him?

Somebody who slightly misjudged public feeling ?

Yes, big time.

But Mr Wajda said the decision "will spark protests and could cause the deepest splits in Polish society since 1989".

Same thing happened in the UK when Princess Di died.
The royal family got it for sticking to 'correct' protocol and apparently under-reacting when everyone in public was busy over-reacting.
Then the politicians got it for trying to muscle in on the event for the media screentime.

There was an element of publicity.

 

[Borek]

That was my feeling about him he wasn't popular. But can the growth of Polish economy during the world recession be linked to him?

No. And it has nothing to do with his actions or lack of these, in Poland presidential prerogatives are rather limited, it is prime minister and government who has the executive power and tools.

President can vote bills and - in a way - that's his most important tool. President can also propose new bills, but they have to pass through both Parliament and Senate, where they can be modified. President also appoints ministers and ambassadors, but he doesn't select them, they are proposed by prime minister. That's not all, but IMHO that is enough to help you understand the legal situation.

 

[waht]

No. And it has nothing to do with his actions or lack of these, in Poland presidential prerogatives are rather limited, it is prime minister and government who has the executive power and tools.

President can vote bills and - in a way - that's his most important tool. President can also propose new bills, but they have to pass through both Parliament and Senate, where they can be modified. President also appoints ministers and ambassadors, but he doesn't select them, they are proposed by prime minister. That's not all, but IMHO that is enough to help you understand the legal situation.

Yes, that makes sense.

 

[player1_1_1]

He was very good politician, he was my President, we choosed him to be our President and I liked him very much. It is very good idea to bury him on Wawel because he was one of the best. I can't understand anyone who says he shouldn't be buried here - if I lived in Krakow, I would join contrmanifestation.

 

[turbo]

Obama's trip to Poland is officially off, due to volcanic ash. He was to have left DC tonight, but volcanic activity increased early this morning, and shows no signs of abating anytime soon.

 

[waht]

Looks like Obama, and other presidents canceled their visit to Kaczynski's funeral because the whole of Europe is paralyzed from the volcano's ash clouds.

 

[Borek]

He was very good politician, he was my President, we choosed him to be our President and I liked him very much. It is very good idea to bury him on Wawel because he was one of the best. I can't understand anyone who says he shouldn't be buried here - if I lived in Krakow, I would join contrmanifestation.

He was elected to be the President, nobody denies it. But democracy is about having different points of view, so don't be surprised that not everyone share yours. All polls I have seen on the internet show that majority is against the idea.

At the moment looks like the decision to bury Lech Kaczyński on Wawel has made itself. Everyone asked by journalists tells that he didn't made the decision, someone else did. For me this is kind of a signal. As they say - success has many fathers, while failure is an orphan.

 

[MotoH]

In Warsaw:

 

[Frame Dragger]

I think Poland has shown itself to be remarkably strong and especially put on a good showing of its moral character in this last week. Today especially, was tough to see, but good too in a way.

@MotoH: Good choices for the pics. You have a very keen sense of what is appropriate, and when. It's sad to see, but thanks for posting them. I'd rather see things this way than with some news anchor chattering over a somber affair.

 

[player1_1_1]

majority was always against him. It was very iritating that so much people was laughing always when he did a little mistake. there were so many attacks in press and in tv, even in Deutschland where they called them "potato"! people can not stop criticising him even after his death. but he will always be my President - no one else!

 

[Borek]

majority was always against him.

Actually at least once majority was for, not against - he was elected.

 

[Frame Dragger]

The GERMANS called him a "potato?! Shouldn't they still be apologizing for... I don't know... "Fall Weiß"?! I usually like a good century between massive invasions before a country starts to denegrate a head of state... call me old fashioned.

Anyway, I think anyone with a TV or radio knows that most of the Polish people are grieving, if not for the man, then the office and country. Then again, there are the hyenas mentioned earlier. *no smiley exists to express murderous fury on this site, but there should be*

 

[Borek]

The GERMANS called him a "potato?!

In 2006.

American president is being called much worse names on the daily basis, isn't he? I am afraid that's part of the job description.

 

[turbo]

In 2006.

American president is being called much worse names on the daily basis, isn't he? I am afraid that's part of the job description.

Yes, and in public, and on signs and posters being waved around by racists at so-called Tea Parties.

 

[MotoH]

Yes, and in public, and on signs and posters being waved around by racists at so-called Tea Parties.

It happened during both of Bush's terms. But that wasn't racist because white people can't be discriminated against. Only white people can be racist. When blacks and minorities say something, it is freedom of speech.

 

[mgb_phys]

The GERMANS called him a "potato?!

To be fair the Germans are rather fond of potatos - it's like an American calling you a hamburger, you aren't sure if you should be offended or not!

 

[Frame Dragger]

To be fair the Germans are rather fond of potatos - it's like an American calling you a hamburger, you aren't sure if you should be offended or not!

I'm insulted if it's someone from Frankfurter calling me a Hamburger!

 

[turbo]

I'm insulted if it's someone from Frankfurter calling me a Hamburger!

How about if someone from Hamburg called you... never mind.

 

[Frame Dragger]

How about if someone from Hamburg called you... never mind.

I can't believe I just laughed on this thread, but... frankly I could use the levity.

 

[mheslep]

Yes, and in public, and on signs and posters being waved around by racists at so-called Tea Parties.

Yep, all the time:
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_anti-war_rally_oct_27_2007/passive-aggressive_syndrome/IMG_9676.JPG
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_april_10_2004/characters/120-2044_IMG.JPG
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/BushWhackerElMarco.jpg
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/imheretokillbush.jpg
http://www.voxfux.com/archives/voxfux-nwo.jpg

 

[Borek]

Final MAK report: http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2010/files/tu154m_101/finalreport_eng.pdf

Report is devastating for Polish side - which is unfortunately not surprising, Polish investigation (not finished yet) points at the same problems with flight preparation and procedures. They should not try to land, some say they should even not start from Warsaw. Sad. I must admit I feel ashamed, it pushes us too far in the direction of some 3rd world country.

However, Russians did all to ignore possible problems on their side, especially problems with their air traffic control. Polish pilots were pressured to land, that's mentioned in the report. Judging from the partial information we (Poles) have Russian air traffic controllers were under pressure too (from their superiors) to not close the airport no matter what the weather was, as that could end in international scandal - but it is not mentioned in the report. Also there are conflicting reports whether ATC should allow landing approach, or not - it is not clear what procedures should be used.

On December 19th Polish side sent over http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2010/files/tu154m_101/comment_polsk.pdf to the initial version of the report, which were mostly ignored in the final report. Part of the document sent to Moscow is a list of documents and informations describing ATC procedures and regulations that we wanted to see since the investigation started - we didn't get almost nothing (you may check the table at the very beginning of the document - pages 5 to 25, "nie" means "no" and each time it starts content of the right column it means our request was ignored or denied this way or another). Russians did the test flight around the airport, to check correct functioning of all devices there, but Polish representatives were not allowed on board. There is more. I am far from conspiracy theories, but I can't help it, it sounds like a classic case of hiding something, and making our pilots scapegoats. After all, they can't defend themselves.

 

[turbo]

We got a truncated version of that on the news last night, Borek. The repost cited unreasonable pressure on the cockpit crew to land, but no details about how and why such pressure might have been applied.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Report is devastating for Polish side.

Still, it's better than over here. At least you're not calling for a ban on airplanes.

 

[Borek]

We got a truncated version of that on the news last night, Borek. The repost cited unreasonable pressure on the cockpit crew to land, but no details about how and why such pressure might have been applied.

"Why" is clear - there was no time for landing somewhere else, that would mean canceling the ceremony. "How" is less clear to me, but I don't know details too well.

 

[mheslep]

Final MAK report: http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2010/files/tu154m_101/finalreport_eng.pdf

Report is devastating for Polish side - which is unfortunately not surprising, Polish investigation (not finished yet) points at the same problems with flight preparation and procedures. They should not try to land, some say they should even not start from Warsaw. Sad. I must admit I feel ashamed, it pushes us too far in the direction of some 3rd world country.

For what it is worth I'd say with that statement and the frank report you and yours rise above the usual games played by third world countries, as recognizing a problem is the first step to fixing them. The third world country as we know lays blame on dis, dat, and d' otta ting.

 

[Borek]

recognizing a problem is the first step to fixing them

I thought the same after CASA accident. Unfortunately, seems like not much changed since.

 

[NobodySpecial]

The third world country as we know lays blame on dis, dat, and d' otta ting.

While first world countries blame the dead pilots and then classify everything top secret - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Scotland_RAF_Chinook_crash

 

[Evo]

While first world countries blame the dead pilots and then classify everything top secret - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Scotland_RAF_Chinook_crash

Please point out where everything was classified top secret, I don't see it.

 

[NobodySpecial]

Please point out where everything was classified top secret, I don't see it.

RAF documents saying that the new engine management software was crap - but they didn't want to say anything in case it upset their allies were leaked to the press, but the inquiry ruled they were inadmissible because they couldn't be published. A bunch of FoI requests by the family of the pilots have been rejected for various 'commercially sensitive' and 'national security' reasons.

It's been a bit of a political football for years between the new Scottish parliament, supporters of the pilots families and the government.

The general air of cover-up hasn't been helped by the claim at a bunch of other inquiries that every member of the security forces involved in anything slightly naughty in Northern Ireland for the last 40years was onboard that flight - while anybody still alive is completely innocent.

 

[Borek]

Perhaps the best comment so far, summing up the situation - report shows the truth. Unfortunately, it shows only Polish half of the truth.