Probability of randomly bouncing speedometer (stubborn calculus)

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem in quantum mechanics involving a broken car speedometer's needle, which can come to rest at any angle between 0 and π. Participants are tasked with determining the probability density of the x-coordinate of the needle's projection, as well as computing the expected value and standard deviation for this distribution.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the uniform distribution and its implications for the probability density function. There are attempts to convert polar coordinates to Cartesian coordinates and to set up integrals for calculating expected values. Some participants question the validity of squaring the distribution and the assumptions made regarding the wavefunction.

Discussion Status

There is ongoing clarification regarding the correct application of equations and integrals. Some participants have identified errors in previous calculations, while others are refining their understanding of the distribution and its properties. The discussion is productive, with participants providing insights and corrections to each other's approaches.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the probability density function is defined within specific bounds, and there are concerns about the implications of negative or complex results in the context of standard deviation. The discussion reflects a mix of mathematical exploration and conceptual questioning.

Yitzach
Messages
60
Reaction score
0
Welcome to Intro Quantum Mechanics:

Homework Statement


(From previous problem) The needle on a broken car speedometer is free to swing, and bounces perfectly off the pins at either end, so that of you give it a flick it is equally likely to come to rest at any angle between 0 and pi. (Next problem) We consider the same device as the previous problem, but this time we are interested in the x-coordinate of the needle point - that is, the "shadow," or "projection," of the needle on the horizontal line. (a.) What is the probability density rho of x? (b.) Compute <x>, <x^2>, and sigma (standard deviation) for this distribution.


Homework Equations


Uniform distribution:\rho(x)=\frac{1}{b-a}
1. x=r\cos\theta
2. \frac{d}{du}\cos u=-\sin u du
3. \csc\arccos\frac{x}{r}=\frac{\left|r\right|}{\sqrt{r^2-x^2}}
4. \int\frac{dx}{\sqrt{a^2-x^2}}=\arcsin\frac{x}{r}
5. \left\langle x\right\rangle=\int^\infty_{-\infty}\bar{\psi}x\psi dx
6. \left\langle x^2\right\rangle=\int^\infty_{-\infty}\bar{\psi}x^2\psi dx
7. \sigma=\sqrt{\left\langle x^2\right\rangle-\left\langle x\right\rangle^2}
8. \int\frac{x^2dx}{a+bx^2}=\frac{x}{b}-\frac{a}{b}\int\frac{dx}{a+bx^2}
9. \int\frac{dx}{a+bx^2}=\frac{1}{2\sqrt{-ab}}\ln\frac{a+x\sqrt{-ab}}{a-x\sqrt{-ab}}
10. \int\frac{dx}{a+bx^2}=\frac{1}{\sqrt{-ab}}\tanh^{-1}\frac{x\sqrt{-ab}}{a}
11. \int\frac{x^2dx}{a+bx+cx^2}=\frac{x}{c}-\frac{b}{2c^2}\ln(a+bx+cx^2)+\frac{b^2-2ac}{2c^2}\int\frac{dx}{a+bx+c^2}
12. \int\frac{dx}{a+bx+c^2}=\frac{1}{\sqrt{-(4ac-b^2)}}\ln\frac{2cx+b-\sqrt{-(4ac-b^2)}}{2cx+b+\sqrt{-(4ac-b^2)}}
13. \tanh^{-1}=.5\ln\frac{1+x}{1-x}
L'Hospital's Rule:\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0}\frac{f(x)}{g(x)}=\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0}\frac{f&#039;(x)}{g&#039;(x)}

The Attempt at a Solution


I started out with the uniform distribution and found \rho(\theta)=\frac{1}{\pi}.
Then I found the conversions from polar r and theta to Cartesian x and for polar dtheta to Cartesian dx using 1 and 2 and manipulated them thus:
\arccos\frac{x}{r}=\theta
-\frac{1}{r}\csc\theta dx=d\theta
-\frac{1}{r}\csc\arccos\frac{x}{r} dx=d\theta.
I put that conversion in the integral of rho of theta dtheta for all space and checked the handy work with the help of 3, 4, and the fact that r is a positive real number thus:
\int^\pi_0\frac{1}{\pi}d\theta=\int^{-r}_r-\frac{1}{r}\csc\arccos\frac{x}{r} dx=\frac{1}{\pi}\int^r_{-r}\frac{dx}{\sqrt{r^2-x^2}}=1
I conclude the following from that exercise:
\rho(x)=\frac{1}{\pi\sqrt{r^2-x^2}}
I then go to find the expected/average value of x (<x>) and find it to be 0 meters from center. Makes sense as it is a symmetric distribution about x=0.
I then attempt to find <x^2> using 6, 8-13, and L'Hospital's Rule.
\int^\infty_{-\infty}\bar{\psi}x^2\psi dx=\int^r_{-r}\frac{1}{\pi\sqrt{r^2-x^2}}x^2\frac{1}{\pi\sqrt{r^2-x^2}}dx=\int^r_{-r}\frac{x^2dx}{\pi^2(r^2-x^2)}
The indefinite integral of that looks like or is related by algebra to this:
\int\frac{x^2dx}{r^2-x^2}=-\frac{a}{2}\ln\frac{x-r}{x+r}-x+C
I inevitably ran into one of two application of L'Hospital's Rule and limits in general:
\lim_{x\rightarrow r}r\ln\frac{x-r}{x+r}=r\ln\lim_{x\rightarrow r}\frac{x-r}{x+r}=r\ln\lim_{x\rightarrow r}\frac{1}{1}=0.
The other look like it except it is -r, which results in:
\ln-1=\pi i
I consistently came up with answers that made no sense. The difference between the first, third and fourth answers are if I used logarithm laws to simplify addition or not. And I think I had a few adding errors between the last two. The first answer was the most popular:
\left\langle x^2\right\rangle=\left\{-2\frac{r}{\pi},-2r\infty,-2\frac{r}{\pi}+\frac{r i}{2\pi},-2\frac{r}{\pi}+\frac{r i}{\pi}\right\}
Negative and complex answers would result in complex or imaginary standard deviations which make no sense either. My calculator tells me that my answers should be real positive numbers. But it can't tell me that for certain. Weird stuff starts happening when you use limits of integration where the points are at infinity or not included in the normal function. I found two more entries for 13 in my math tables that I haven't tried yet, but I don't expect to get better results out of them.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Don't square the distribution!

Equation 6 is specific to 1-d quantum mechanics where dP = |ψ|^2 dx. Yet you're NOT dealing with a wavefunction. You have dP = ρ(x) dx = [π*sqrt(r^2-x^2)]^-1 dx. The expectation value is

<x^2> = ∫ x^2 dP, (all space)

Now take the integral. The integrand is even, so you have symmetry about the y-axis.

(Everything else looks good!)
 
Last edited:
That makes more sense, that is a mean trick to pull. And I'm know I'm not the only one who fell for it.
The resulting sigma make more sense, but not complete sense. Rho of x is defined between -r and r.
\sigma=\sqrt{r^2\frac{\pi}{2}-0^2}=r\sqrt{\frac{\pi}{2}}\approx1.2533r
How can all of the distribution and then some be within one standard deviation of the expected value of x?
 
Hmmm.. Wolfram Alpha shows me a little different answer.. Did you forget the 1/π?This was my calculation:
Integral[2*(π*sqrt(r^2-x^2))^(-1)*x^2,{x,0,r}]

http://www.wolframalpha.com/
 
I did drop the pi^-1. GIGO. TI-89 Titanium only knows what I tell it. Nicely caught. And that sigma makes complete sense now that it is less than one whole r.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K