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Proof of a function

  1. Mar 29, 2005 #1
    Show for every real x, that [tex] f(x) = \lim_{n \rightarrow \infty} ( \lim_{m \rightarrow \infty} (cos n! \pi x)^{2m}) [/tex] exists and compute it. (show as a familiar rational number) Provein deatil taht your calculations are correct.What is a more familiar name for the function f?

    The argument of the Cosine is a real number, and since the cosine fuctin maps from Reals to Reals then the cosine part exists and is real. But how owuldi deal with the limit parts? L'Hopital's rule doesnt apply here...

    Doesnt the cosine function wave up and down?? So hgow would this limit exist then?

    ANy help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 29, 2005 #2

    HallsofIvy

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    Is that [tex]cos(n!\pi x)[/tex]? I assume it is although it could mean [tex]cos(n!\pi)x[/tex] or even [tex]cos(n!)\pi x[/tex]

    Hint: cos(x) always lies between -1 and 1 so for every fixed n [tex]cos(n!\pi x)[/tex] is a number between -1 and 1. What happens to a number between -1 and 1 when raised to higher and higher powers? (Pay special attention to those values of n and x that make [tex]cos(n!\pi x)[/tex]= 1 or -1.)
     
  4. Mar 29, 2005 #3
    Sorry to disturb...but nothing happens to a number between -1 and 1 raised to higher and higher powers...think of e=(1-1/n)^n...(sorry i can't help anymore...)
     
  5. Mar 29, 2005 #4

    dextercioby

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    N-are treaba "e"-ul.That limit should be 0,but unfortunately,there are values for which the cosine is "+" or "-" 1,so then the limit would not exist.

    So i'd say that we should let the OP to explain to us what the initial function really is...

    Daniel.
     
  6. Mar 29, 2005 #5
    Here's an idea...

    cos(n!*pi*x)^(2*m)=[cos(n!*pi*x)^2]^m=[1-sin(n!*pi*x)^2]^m...
    if only one could prove that sin(n!*pi*x)^2 -> 0 as n -> infinity...it would be quite simple from here...it's "classical" (1-1/u)^u where u->infinity...
    ? did help ?
     
  7. Mar 29, 2005 #6

    dextercioby

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    No matter the argument (incidentally,it tends to infinity for every nonzero "x"),the sine still oscilates between "-1" & "1"...Sine squared only between 0 & 1...

    Daniel.
     
  8. Mar 29, 2005 #7
    What tends to infinity ?
    I know sin*sin is between 0 and 1...but for the argument n!*pi*x i hope it (sin*sin) tends to 0...
    something like n!*pi*x tends to an even multiple of pi for n great enough...so that sin*sin -> 0...that's maybe why it's 2*m...not only m...
     
  9. Mar 29, 2005 #8

    dextercioby

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    Then why did they put a limit for "n--->infty"...?You're basically saying that it doesn't matter,whether that limit exists or not.Sides,even if it didn't matter (that u're taking a limit over "n!"),that "x" is still real and that argument of "sine" would not be an integer multiple of "pi"...

    I'll think about it,though...

    Daniel.
     
  10. Mar 29, 2005 #9
    That argument will never be an integer multiple of pi...maybe it will come close enough to it...so that sin->0...anyway...I don't think the limits should be taken separately...not first lim m and then lim n...but at the same time...
    I don't know if this helps anyone so I'll stop here...:)
    Sorry again if I mislead some of you...or said very stupid things...
     
  11. Mar 29, 2005 #10

    dextercioby

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    U didn't & needn't worry about that.It's a HW forum & everyone might get to learn something :smile:

    Daniel.
     
  12. Mar 29, 2005 #11

    saltydog

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    Well, I'm interested but can't prove it. I wish to propose the following though:

    Let:

    [tex] f(x)=\lim_{n\rightarrow\infty}(\lim_{m\rightarrow\infty}[Cos(n!\pi x)]^{2m})=k[/tex]

    Where:

    [tex]k=\left\{\begin{array}{cc}1,&\mbox{ if }x\in$\mathbb{N}$}\\0,&{ if }x\notin $\mathbb{N}$\end{array}\right[/tex]
     
  13. Mar 29, 2005 #12

    dextercioby

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    How do you know it's zero,for [itex] x\notin N [/itex]...?

    Daniel.
     
  14. Mar 29, 2005 #13

    saltydog

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    Well, in an unorthodox manner: I plotted the function:

    [tex]Cos^{2n}[n! \pi x][/tex]

    in Mathematica and noticed that it tends to zero for any non-integer values of x. I know, that's crummy but it's something to work with.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2005
  15. Mar 29, 2005 #14

    dextercioby

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    How about attaching that graph...?

    Daniel.

    EDIT:If Mathematica is so smart,can't it compute that limit,so that a graph would be useless...? :uhh:
     
  16. Mar 29, 2005 #15

    saltydog

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    Yea, and it cost more than my machine too and it's got other problems as well but I digress. It can't though.

    Here's a plot for x=3.1. All the plots for non-integer numbers that I've tested are similar.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 29, 2005
  17. Mar 29, 2005 #16

    dextercioby

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    Okay,what about the limits over "n" & "m"...?

    Daniel.
     
  18. Mar 29, 2005 #17

    HallsofIvy

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    I believe they have medication for that!

    I said "a number". 1- 1/n is not "a number".
     
  19. Mar 29, 2005 #18

    dextercioby

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    Ouch,that escaped me.Good thing Halls decided to quote.

    [tex] e=:\lim_{n\rightarrow +\infty} \left(1+\frac{1}{n}\right)^{n} [/tex] ,okay...?

    U've missed the limit (that's wrong) and the "-" (together with the limit) would yield [itex] e^{-1} [/itex]

    Daniel.
     
  20. Mar 29, 2005 #19
    Ok...you are both right...
    but i believe you are still wrong about the problem...
    about taking those limits separately...
    And what kind of medication is there for my condition ?
    HallsofIvy...I did not attack your person...but a statement...so...please...at least the idea I was trying to convey was not wrong...
    Of course...this being an hw forum...you just had to point that out...about e...
    I am very curious to see the solution...
     
  21. Mar 29, 2005 #20

    saltydog

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    Alright, I think I have it:

    For:

    [tex] f(x)=\lim_{n\rightarrow\infty}(\lim_{m\rightarrow\infty}[Cos(n!\pi x)]^{2m})=k[/tex]

    Where:

    [tex]k=\left\{\begin{array}{cc}1,&\mbox{ if }x\in$\mathbb{Q}$}\\0,&{ if }x\notin $\mathbb{Q}$\end{array}\right[/tex]

    Case 1:

    x is rational:

    Eventually, (n!)x becomes an integer and then remains so with increasing n. Thus (n!)x[itex]\pi[/itex] becomes k[itex]\pi[/itex] with k an integer. The cosine of this is then 1, or -1 which raised to any even power is 1.

    Case 2:

    x is irrational:

    In this case, (n!)x never becomes an integer which means that the cosine of the number is always less than one and this number raised to a large power tends to zero.

    What do you guys think?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2005
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