Proving the existence of a real exponential function

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around proving the existence of a real exponential function, specifically focusing on the properties of sets defined by rational exponents of a real number \( a > 1 \). Participants are exploring the supremum and infimum of these sets and their implications for the existence of a unique real number \( \gamma \) that lies between them.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are examining the set \( A = \{ a^r | r \in \mathbb{Q}, r < x \} \) to show it does not have a maximum value, questioning the validity of the original poster's reasoning. There is also a focus on proving that \( \sup A = \inf B \) for the set \( B = \{ a^s | s \in \mathbb{Q}, s > x \} \).

Discussion Status

Some participants express uncertainty about the correctness of the proof regarding the maximum of set \( A \) and emphasize the need to establish the relationship between the supremum of \( A \) and the infimum of \( B \). There is acknowledgment of the complexity of the proofs being discussed, with indications that further clarification is needed.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the constraints of the problem, including the requirement that \( a > 1 \) and the focus on rational numbers. There is also mention of the original poster's attempts to clarify their reasoning after initial confusion.

Portuga
Messages
56
Reaction score
6
Homework Statement
Proof that ##a^r < \gamma < a^s## for all rational ##r## and ##s##, ##r<x<s##, and ##x \in \mathbb{R}## known.
Relevant Equations
Assume that ##f(x)=a^x## is defined only for ##x \in \mathbb{Q}##. Assume that ##f(x)## is strictly growing.
Lemma 1.
If ##a>1## is a know real, ##\forall \varepsilon > 0##, ##\exists n \in \mathbb{N}## such that $$a^{\frac{1}{n}} - 1 < \varepsilon$$.
Lemma 2.
If ##a>1## and ##x## are a known reals, ##\forall \varepsilon > 0##, ##\exists r, s \in \mathbb{Q}##, ##r<x<s## such that $$a^s - a^r < \varepsilon$$.
Ok, first I tried to show that ##A = \left \{a^{r}|r\in\mathbb{Q},r<x \right \}## does not have a maximum value.
Assume ##\left\{ a^{r}\right\}## has a maximum, ##a^{r_m}##. By this hypothesis, ##r_{m}<x## and ##r_{m}>r\forall r\neq r_{m}\in\mathbb{Q}##. Consider now that ## q\in\mathbb{Q}|q>0## such that $$ q<x-r_{m}.$$ Of course, $$a^{q}<a^{x},$$because ##q<x##.
As ##q>0##, ##r_{m}+q>r_{m}##, a contradiction. So, ##A## does not have a maximum value.
If ##x## is a rational, ##a^x## is the supreme for ##A## and the infimus for ##B=\left\{ a^{s}|s\in\mathbb{Q},s>x\right\}## and the proof is finished.
If not, by Lemma 2, there are ##r_1## and ##s_1##, ##r_1 \in A##, ##s_1 \in B## so that $$a^{s_{1}}-a^{r_{1}}<\epsilon.$$
Now, if so, then ##a^{r}=a^{s}## and the suprema and infimus of ##A## and ##B## are equal.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Is the statem you are trying to prove true for all rational number? E.g. for 0 < a < 1
and others
 
Yes, for rationals, ##a \in \mathbb{R}##, ##a>1##.
 
Last edited:
Now I see that I have made a real mess.
Let me try to make things more clear.
Homework Statement: consider ##a>1## a known real number. Prove that, for all real ##x##, there is only one real ##\gamma## such that $$a^r<\gamma<a^s$$ for any rationals ##r## and ##s##, with ##r<x<s##.
Relevant Equations: ##\max A ## is the maximum element of ##A##. The upper quote of a set ##A## is a value greater than any of its elements. The supremum of a set is its smallest upper quote.

My attempt of a solution.
The set ##A=\left\{ a^{r}|r\in\mathbb{Q},r<x\right\}## is not empty and superiorly limited by any ##a^s##, ##s## rational and ##s>x##; so this set has a supremum, but not a maximum.
To show that it has not a maximum, suppose that ##r_m## is it. Thus, ##r_{m}<x## and ##r_{m}>r\forall r\neq r_{m}\in A##. But it is also possible to generate a rational ##q\in \mathbb{Q}|q>0## such that $$q<x-r_{m},$$ using $$q=r_{m}+\frac{1}{a},$$ ##a## being the least integer for which ## r_{m}+\frac{1}{a} < x.## It is clear that ##q+r_m<x##, so it is in ##A## and ##q+r_m>r_m## (because ##\frac{1}{a}>0)## contradicting the initial hypothesis that ##r_m## is a maximum.
Using analogous reasoning, it is proved that ##B=\left\{ a^{s}|r\in\mathbb{Q},s>x\right\}## has a infimum but not a minimum.
This should make evident that $$a^r < \gamma < a^s.$$
Is this a correct reasoning?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Delta2
Not sure if your proof that A doesn't have a maximum correct, however I think what is definitely needed is to prove that $$supA=infB(=\gamma)$$

EDIT: Sorry I only read your second post, now that I read your first post, you try there to prove that ##supA=infB## but I don't understand that proof. I have slept only 4 hours last night, I 'll come back to this when I have slept more.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Portuga
Delta2 said:
Not sure if your proof that A doesn't have a maximum correct, however I think what is definitely needed is to prove that $$supA=infB(=\gamma)$$

EDIT: Sorry I only read your second post, now that I read your first post, you try there to prove that ##supA=infB## but I don't understand that proof. I have slept only 4 hours last night, I 'll come back to this when I have slept more.
Ok, thank you very much.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
Replies
20
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K