Proving Thermodynamics of Ideal Gas at Constant Temp

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving specific thermodynamic properties of an ideal gas at constant temperature, specifically focusing on the internal energy and enthalpy in relation to volume and pressure changes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the internal energy of an ideal gas does not change with volume at constant temperature due to the absence of potential energy and the nature of elastic collisions, which maintain kinetic energy.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty regarding the concept of enthalpy, indicating a lack of clarity on its implications for the discussion.
  • Another participant provides a definition of enthalpy, suggesting that it comprises internal energy and the energy required to change pressure and volume, and argues that enthalpy remains constant under certain conditions of volume and pressure changes.
  • A later reply clarifies the mathematical expressions for the claims, specifically stating the derivatives (dU/dV)T=0 and (dH/dP)T=0 for an ideal gas, indicating a desire for proof of these relationships.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of understanding regarding enthalpy, with some agreeing on the behavior of internal energy while others remain uncertain about the implications of enthalpy in this context. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the proofs requested.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes varying interpretations of thermodynamic principles and lacks a unified approach to proving the stated relationships, with some assumptions about ideal gas behavior remaining unexamined.

Hong1111
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For an ideal gas, how to prove that:
(a) its internal energy does not change with volume at constant temperature
(b) its enthalpy does not change with pressure at constant temperature

Thanks.
 
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Hong1111 said:
For an ideal gas, how to prove that:
(a) its internal energy does not change with volume at constant temperature
(b) its enthalpy does not change with pressure at constant temperature

Thanks.
What have you done to try to work this out?

AM
 
Well for an ideal gas, they are like free particles as there are no forces or potential energies between particles. If you increase the size of the box, that doesn't change the potential energy since there is no potential energy. It doesn't change the kinetic energy because all collisions with the box are elastic, so colliding with the walls doesn't change the kinetic energy, so changing the frequency of collision with walls (which would alter the pressure) by changing how big the box is does not change the kinetic energy! So since internal energy is kinetic+potential, none of this changes with the size of the box!

As for enthalpy I have no clue what that is.
 
RedX said:
Well for an ideal gas, they are like free particles as there are no forces or potential energies between particles. If you increase the size of the box, that doesn't change the potential energy since there is no potential energy. It doesn't change the kinetic energy because all collisions with the box are elastic, so colliding with the walls doesn't change the kinetic energy, so changing the frequency of collision with walls (which would alter the pressure) by changing how big the box is does not change the kinetic energy! So since internal energy is kinetic+potential, none of this changes with the size of the box!

As for enthalpy I have no clue what that is.

Enthalpy is the total energy of a thermodynamic system - Internal Energy and the energy required to make room for it (i.e. increase the pressure of its environment to make space).
It is basicaly H=U+pV (H is Enthalpy in Joules - U is internal energy, p is pressure and V is volume). As the volume has increased, the pressure has decreased, so Enthalpy stays the same (assuming Pressure and volume change at inverse rates - i.e. no external change occurs).

That's my understanding anyway.
 
Last edited:
Oh sorry... What I am trying to ask is, how to prove that

(a)(dU/dV)T=0
(b)(dH/dP)T=0

for an ideal gas.
 

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