Questioning Bell's Assumption on All Local Hidden Variable Theories

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The recent activity on Bells theorem in PF has triggered my interest in the subject and I have added Bell to the list of things I might look at in greater detail. Unfortunately I cannot see the justification in one of the assumptions apparently made by Bell.

As far as I understand it, Bell considered the assumptions made in the EPR paper and showed that these lead to predictions which are contradicted by the observations. So it seemed that there was something wrong with EPR. Fair enough.
From this it was assumed that not just EPR but all theories of hidden variables are incorrect :

NO PHYSICAL THEORY OF LOCAL HIDDEN VARIABLES CAN EVER REPRODUCE ALL OF THE PREDICTIONS OF QUANTUM MECHANICS.

How can such a sweeping generalistion, which is based on EPR only, be made about all potential theories? If any theory is developed then to be a good theory it must conform to the observations. EPR failed but that doesn't mean that other theories will fail.
What am I missing?
 
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Dadface said:
... So it seemed that there was something wrong with EPR. Fair enough.
From this it was assumed that not just EPR but all theories of hidden variables are incorrect :

NO PHYSICAL THEORY OF LOCAL HIDDEN VARIABLES CAN EVER REPRODUCE ALL OF THE PREDICTIONS OF QUANTUM MECHANICS.

How can such a sweeping generalistion, which is based on EPR only, be made about all potential theories? ...

You are actually correct, the idea is that theories following in the footsteps of the EPR definitions are ruled out. So let's examine the 2 keys assumptions:

a) There are no FTL influences (locality): I think most people intuitively understand what is meant by this. Bell used the idea that a measurement setting here cannot affect a measurement outcome there, and vice versa. Some call this separability. At any rate, if you are a believer in locality, then logically entanglement of 2 particles which are separated CANNOT include a physical connection between the 2. So here is a big leap for all local realistic theories: entanglement must be represented by independently evolving particles that have some set of attributes/properties that were originally correlated in some manner. These properties then give rise to the correlated results, independently of decisions the observer might choose to make as to what is to be measured. Alice's decision does not affect what Bob sees, although they both may be dealing with particles that have closely correlated states.

Does the above make sense?

b) The realism assumption is the one that seems to be a sticking point for many people. To EPR, it meant that the so-called "perfect correlations"* of entangled pairs implies that measurement outcomes must actually be predetermined. That means, in essence, that the observer plays no role in the outcome other than to select which predetermined properties are being revealed. That is because if the observer played any significant role, the results would NOT be perfectly correlated! Keep in mind that there are plenty of Local Hidden Variable theories in which the observer plays a role. In those, however, you don't have perfect correlations in these cases so the theory fails a basic test.

Does the above make sense? So really, your question comes down to: what OTHER definitions or representations of realism are there in which perfect correlations are preserved?

*which means that the results are 100% correlated at identical angle settings.
 
If we put it in a simple logical statement, the EPR argument goes like this:
locality, realism => QM does not posess the property of completeness

Now Bell showed that:
locality, realism => contradiction with predictions of QM => there are no complete theories in the sense of EPR which reproduce the predictions of QM
 
Dadface said:
NO PHYSICAL THEORY OF LOCAL HIDDEN VARIABLES CAN EVER REPRODUCE ALL OF THE PREDICTIONS OF QUANTUM MECHANICS.

How can such a sweeping generalistion, which is based on EPR only, be made about all potential theories? If any theory is developed then to be a good theory it must conform to the observations. EPR failed but that doesn't mean that other theories will fail.
What am I missing?

I'll suggest a cheapie analogy about how very sweeping statements can be true: When I say "No odd number can be the sum of two even numbers", that's an equally sweeping generalization - there are an infinite number of odd numbers, and I can't possibly have examined them all. How can I be sure that somewhere out there, among the infinity of odd numbers that I haven't looked at, there's not one that is the sum of two even numbers?
Of course the answer to this question is obvious - an odd number is defined in such a way that it cannot be the sum of two even numbers, and therefore I can be confident that all the numbers I find that are the sum of two even numbers cannot be odd numbers.

Bell's theorem follows a similar logic, except that instead of working with a class of numbers (the odd numbers) he works with a class of theories, namely those that assume local hidden variables. He demonstrates that if local hidden variables (he has a more rigorous formulation, of course) exist, then certain results must follow. Therefore, any theory that assumes the existence of local hidden variables must also predict those results.

If the theory does not predict those results then, just as any number that is the sum of two even numbers is necessarily not an odd number, that theory is necessarily not a local hidden variable theory.
 
Thank you all for your replies. I need time to digest the comments and I need time to refer to different sources on the subject. My personal feeling is that hidden variables as envisaged by EPR do not exist and that even if they do they are irrelevant. Of course personal feelings can change as one looks more deeply into a subject.
 
Dadface said:
Thank you all for your replies. I need time to digest the comments and I need time to refer to different sources on the subject. My personal feeling is that hidden variables as envisaged by EPR do not exist and that even if they do they are irrelevant. Of course personal feelings can change as one looks more deeply into a subject.

......sweeping conclusions.


there are Non-local Hidden Variables Models.



.
 
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Dadface said:
[..] it was assumed that not just EPR but all theories of hidden variables are incorrect :

NO PHYSICAL THEORY OF LOCAL HIDDEN VARIABLES CAN EVER REPRODUCE ALL OF THE PREDICTIONS OF QUANTUM MECHANICS.

How can such a sweeping generalisation, which is based on EPR only, be made about all potential theories? [..]
As has been pointed out in early discussions, (see posts #48, 49 here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=664394&highlight=counterfactual&page=3), Bell's argument relies among other things on counterfactual definiteness, and that appears to be a bit tricky.

I came across the following discussion based on Tomasz F. Bigaj, Non-locality and Possible Worlds: A Counterfactual Perspective on Quantum Entanglement:

"it is not entirely clear how to handle counterfactual reasoning in an indeterministic context. Suppose that while you are flipping a coin (which we will suppose to be a fundamentally indeterministic event for this discussion -- ex hypothesi, nothing in the actual world is causally sufficient to determine the result of the flip), I hum a bar of Ode to Joy. My humming (again, ex hypothesi) has no causal influence on your coin-flipping. You get heads. If I had not been humming, would you still have gotten heads?
Logical intuitions seem to differ on this point. Some argue that, because your flip was indifferent to my humming, you would still have gotten heads if I had not been humming. My humming, or lack of it, could not have affected the outcome. Others argue that we cannot affirm that the flip sans humming would have resulted in heads, because the result is in fact not determined by anything -- it was completely indeterministic. The (imagined) trial flip sans humming must be considered to be another, independent flip of the coin, the result of which we cannot predict. [..] Yet another 'intuition' is that the counterfactual in question is itself indeterminate in truth-value."
- http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/23047-non-l...rfactual-perspective-on-quantum-entanglement/

I came across several of that type of discussions; and I have not yet made up my mind. I'm certainly not convinced that counterfactual definiteness should hold in a "realistic" world, that is, according to concepts of "realists" which are not necessarily limited to definitions of EPR and Bell.

In an earlier thread about another topic, Lugita asked me some questions concerning the topic under discussion here, and so I'll partly reply here:

lugita15 said:
[..] To sum up, in principle the term "counterfactual definiteness" COULD refer to something more general, but for the purposes of Bell's theorem all we need is the meaningfullness of asking what a measurement that you didn't make would yield if you had made it.
See above. Usually such tests are done with the help of random generators. As we are clueless about how stochastic processes work, IMHO we have no theory to support or reject the possibility to predict the outcome of a stochastic process that has not happened because another stochastic process did not select it.

Cantor did try to prove a negative. He said that no attempt to make a one-to-one correspondence between the natural numbers and the real numbers can possibly work. Similarly, Bell said that no attempt to make a local realistic (non-superdeterministic) explanation of the experimental predictions of quantum mechanics can possibly work.
Apparently different people mean different things with "proving a negative"... Cantor discussed known sets, he did not try to prove a negative in the way Bell did. Bell presumably showed that all kinds of not yet imagined theories cannot match a known model. And that much wider sounding claim is the topic here.

Can you elaborate on why you think [that in practice, no physical assumption about reality can be made without any models of reality]?
Sure, I exaggerated a little. A model is composed of assumptions of that which is modeled. In other words, if we make assumptions about something (as EPR and Bell did), that already consists a model. More assumptions provides us with a more detailed model.
Thus, in agreement with the OP and DrChinese: Bell's theorem necessarily applies to the class of theories that match the EPR definitions of terms and Bell's assumptions about such theories. That is less general than Bell's theorem as cited in the first post sounds (and I think, also less general than Bell intended).
 
Thank you audioloop and Harrylin. Before I can go any deeper into this I need to understand more about the basics. I will be grateful if anyone could answer the following question about entangled particles:

Suppose that Bob makes a measurement on one of the particles and as a result observes that a certain property, eg spin, has a definite value. Does quantum mechanics assume anything about that property before the measurement is made?
My understanding at present is that before the measurement is made the particle is in a superposition state and has all possible values of the property simultaneously. Is that correct or does quantum mechanics make different assumptions?

(I am aware that a measured property of one of the particles results in a correlated value for the other particle)
 
harrylin said:
As has been pointed out in early discussions, (see posts #48, 49 here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=664394&highlight=counterfactual&page=3), Bell's argument relies among other things on counterfactual definiteness, and that appears to be a bit tricky.

It seems to me that counterfactual definiteness is a consequence of his notion of local hidden variables, together with facts about quantum correlations, not an assumption. His basic assumption is that distant correlations are "implemented" in terms of local correlations.

Suppose you have two distant experiments:

  • Measurement M_1 is performed at space-time region r_1. The outcome o_1 is given by some probability distribution P_1(o_1)
  • Measurement M_2 is performed at space-time region r_2. The outcome o_2 is given by some other probability distribution P_2(o_2)
  • r_1 and r_2 are spacelike separated (so according to SR, no causal influence can travel from one to the other).

The outcomes are correlated if
P(o_1 \wedge o_2) \neq P_1(o_1) P_2(o_2)

Bell's notion of local hidden variables assumes that all such correlations are explainable in terms of shared histories. That is:

  • There is some set of facts f_1, f_2, ...
  • These facts refer to events or conditions in the common causal past of r_1 and r_2 (that is, these facts refer to the intersection of the backwards light cones of the two regions of spacetime).
  • If these facts were known, then the correlations would disappear:
    P(o_1 \wedge o_2 | f_1, f_2, ...) = P(o_1 | f_1, f_2, ...) P(o_2 | f_1, f_2, ...)

These assumptions by themselves don't imply counterfactual definiteness, and don't assume it. But if the correlations are perfect (which they are in an EPR-type experiment when both experimenters choose the same orientation), then counterfactual definiteness follows.
 
  • #10
Dadface said:
Suppose that Bob makes a measurement on one of the particles and as a result observes that a certain property, eg spin, has a definite value. Does quantum mechanics assume anything about that property before the measurement is made?
My understanding at present is that before the measurement is made the particle is in a superposition state and has all possible values of the property simultaneously. Is that correct or does quantum mechanics make different assumptions?

We're getting dangerously close to interpretations of quantum mechanics... And although many sensible conversations have gone down that rabbit hole, few have come back... :smile:
I'm going to answer your question using the "shut up and calculate" interpretation, which feels right for a discussion about how QM results match experiments, wisely avoids (stay away from that rabbit hole!) any questions about what might be "really happening".

Quantum mechanics says that before the measurement the particle's state is described by a mathematical construct (called, depending on which mathematical formalism you are using, things like "state vector" or a "ket" or a "wave function"). By subjecting this mathematical construct to various mathematical manipulations, we can derive results like "if I were to measure in a vertical direction there is an x% chance of getting spin-up, y% of getting spin-down, x+y=100%, and although we aren't going to go there now, the measurement will change the state".

A hidden variable theory would say that the particle is really spin up or spin down all along, so that if we knew enough about its state and how spin worked inside of particles, we'd be able to say "it is spin-up" or "it is spin-down"; and the x%, y% prediction of QM is just because we don't have this knowledge. It would be as if I flipped a coin, and then without looking at it, said "50% heads, 50% tails" - that doesn't tell us anything about the coin, which is really either 100% heads or 100% tails, it just tells us something about what we know about the coin.
 
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  • #11
Thank you Nugatory. I agree (with some reservations that I am unable to pin down at the moment) that a spin property is revealed when a measurement is made. I also see that hidden variable assumes that such properties are carried by the particles before the observations are made.
What bothers me is that there are other properties that are assumed to exist before the measurements are made.For a photon these properties include :

1. Photons travel at the speed of light
2. When displaying wave properties a photon has a certain frequency.

Is it so that the existence of properties such as one and two are assumed to exist before observation for the different interpretations of quantum mechanics and even for "shut up and calculate". If so what is special about these properties and properties like spin which need an observation to display some sort of reality?
 
  • #12
Dadface said:
Thank you Nugatory. I agree (with some reservations that I am unable to pin down at the moment) that a spin property is revealed when a measurement is made. I also see that hidden variable assumes that such properties are carried by the particles before the observations are made.
What bothers me is that there are other properties that are assumed to exist before the measurements are made.For a photon these properties include :

1. Photons travel at the speed of light
2. When displaying wave properties a photon has a certain frequency.

Is it so that the existence of properties such as one and two are assumed to exist before observation for the different interpretations of quantum mechanics and even for "shut up and calculate". If so what is special about these properties and properties like spin which need an observation to display some sort of reality?

Photons have position, momentum, etc and all of these observables can be entangled. They all have constraints imposed by the Uncertainty Principle.
 
  • #13
Dadface said:
Is it so that the existence of properties such as one and two are assumed to exist before observation for the different interpretations of quantum mechanics and even for "shut up and calculate"?

Get away from that rabbit hole! Stop asking questions and start calculating - what part of "shut up and calculate" don't you understand? :smile:

OK, seriously, kidding aside... The answer to your question is "no", those observables that we think of as fixed properties of a system do not have any special philosophical status in the formalism. We often treat them as known going into a problem, but if you dig into it, you'll find that somewhere in the past we did something to the system ("preparation" is the term often used - see also my weasel words about "although we aren't going to go there now" in #10) to make it so that an observation of that quantity would necessarily give us the value we're assuming.

In writing the previous paragraph I found myself trying to decide whether the right word would be "philosophical" or"ontological". And if you're thinking about stuff like that, you're doing something interesting and important but it's not physics. See how easy it is to start down into the rabbit hole - you had me going too.

Fortunately, we don't need to go there to understand the significance of Bell's theorem. All we need is the quantum mechanical prediction for the outcome of certain measurements performed on certain particles after they have undergone a particular preparation procedure.
 
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  • #14
Thank you DrChinese. I'm a bit familiar with the uncertainty principle but I don't see how it puts constraints on properties such as the speed of light.

If you have the time I would be interested to hear your take on the question I posed in post eight.
 
  • #15
I have a lot to take in here so with thanks to all I'm leaving it for a bit and going off to do some non thinking but absolutely necessary tasks such as having a nice cold pear cider.
 
  • #16
Nugatory said:
A hidden variable theory would say that the particle is really spin up or spin down all along, so that if we knew enough about its state and how spin worked inside of particles, we'd be able to say "it is spin-up" or "it is spin-down"; and the x%, y% prediction of QM is just because we don't have this knowledge.

This is perhaps an overly picky point, but a hidden variables theory does NOT by itself say that the particle is really spin up or spin down all along. Instead, it allows for the spin outcome to be a possibly nondeterministic function of the state of the detector and the state of the particle being detected. But the existence of perfect correlations (in the case of distant detectors measuring along the same axis) implies that a hidden variables explanation can't possibly agree with experiment unless that outcome is a deterministic function of the hidden variable and the detector orientation. So the claim that the spin had a definite value all along is a conclusion from the local hidden variables assumption, it's not assumed.
 
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  • #17
stevendaryl said:
This is perhaps an overly picky point

Picky but not "overly" picky... good point, thx.
 
  • #18
Dadface said:
Thank you audioloop and Harrylin. Before I can go any deeper into this I need to understand more about the basics. I will be grateful if anyone could answer the following question about entangled particles:

Suppose that Bob makes a measurement on one of the particles and as a result observes that a certain property, eg spin, has a definite value. Does quantum mechanics assume anything about that property before the measurement is made?

My understanding at present is that before the measurement is made the particle is in a superposition state and has all possible values of the property simultaneously. Is that correct or does quantum mechanics make different assumptions?

(I am aware that a measured property of one of the particles results in a correlated value for the other particle)

Bold mine.


http://www.tau.ac.il/~vaidman/lvhp/m105.pdf
"the core of the controversy is that quantum counterfactuals about the results of measurements of observables, and especially “elements of reality” are understood as attributing values to observables which are not observed. But this is completely foreign to quantum mechanics. Unperformed experiments have no results! “Element of reality” is just a shorthand for describing a situation in which we know with certainty the outcome of a measurement if it is to be performed, which in turn helps us to know how weakly coupled particles are influenced by the system. Having “elements of reality” does not mean having values for observables. The semantics are misleading since “elements of reality” are not “real” in the ontological sense"


.
 
  • #19
Thank you. Many posts here have me thinking and in some cases reaching for the dictionary. I will "shut up and calculate",but before this there are some details I need in order for me to understand more about the system upon which the calculations are based.If these details are considered as irrelevant I would like to see for myself why.Let me try to explain:

Suppose there was a source which emitted photons. I think that there is an accepted view that each photon has certain properties and in some cases the nature of those properties is accepted as being known without the necessity of making further observations.
Each photon has a:
1.known speed
2.known mass
3.frequency ( which is known for some methods of photon emission)
4.spin

I think it is accepted that, amongst other things, photons possesses properties 1,2 and 3, even before observation, but is it accepted that photons have the property of spin, whether they be entangled or not? I know that an observation may be needed to detect the nature of the spin and that what is observed depends, in part, on the nature of the observation.
My main question which is a reiteration of a reiteration is:

Is it assumed that photons have the property of spin before appropriate observations are made on that photon?

I'm not wishing to attribute values to any spin I just want to know if it is assumed that the photon has a spin or not. I have my own take on this and I just want to know whether there is a generally accepted answer to the question. If any of the old guard come in with an answer thank you for your patience.
 
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  • #20
Dadface said:
Thank you. Many posts here have me thinking and in some cases reaching for the dictionary. I will "shut up and calculate",but before this there are some details I need in order for me to understand more about the system upon which the calculations are based.If these details are considered as irrelevant I would like to see for myself why.Let me try to explain:

Suppose there was a source which emitted photons. I think that there is an accepted view that each photon has certain properties and in some cases the nature of those properties is accepted as being known without the necessity of making further observations.
Each photon has a:
1.known speed
2.known mass
3.frequency ( which is known for some methods of photon emission)
4.spin

I think it is accepted that, amongst other things, photons possesses properties 1,2 and 3, even before observation, but is it accepted that photons have the property of spin, whether they be entangled or not? I know that an observation may be needed to detect the nature of the spin and that what is observed depends, in part, on the nature of the observation.
My main question which is a reiteration of a reiteration is:

Is it assumed that photons have the property of spin before appropriate observations are made on that photon?

I'm not wishing to attribute values to any spin I just want to know if it is assumed that the photon has a spin or not. I have my own take on this and I just want to know whether there is a generally accepted answer to the question. If any of the old guard come in with an answer thank you for your patience.

The accepted version is that NON-commuting observables can be known in advance (ie prepared). Most particles have multiple spin components, and generally these components do not commute. Therefore, it is not meaning to make assertions about those that do not commute.

For example: if you know a photon's linear polarization at 0 degrees, its polarization at 45 degrees is completely uncertain.
 
  • #21
Nugatory said:
[..]
A hidden variable theory would say that the particle is really spin up or spin down all along [..]
Not necessarily so; it is merely a good (and common) first example of such a model. However, particle "spin" as we observe it may thought to be the result of the first measurement interaction; that is also a plausible and realistic assumption. As I understand it, what Bell tried to prove is that even a hidden variable model that does not claim that the measurement outcome already exists before the first measurement, cannot give the same predictions as QM.
 
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  • #22
DrChinese said:
The accepted version is that NON-commuting observables can be known in advance (ie prepared). Most particles have multiple spin components, and generally these components do not commute. Therefore, it is not meaning to make assertions about those that do not commute.

For example: if you know a photon's linear polarization at 0 degrees, its polarization at 45 degrees is completely uncertain.

Thank you DrChinese. I need to do some detailed brushing up on my scant knowledge of non commuting variables. It has been donkeys years since I last looked at that stuff.

Your example seems to summarise my main sticking point. What do you mean by "know a photons polarisation"? Know what about it?
If I know that a photon is plane polarised at 0 degrees and if I know the amplitude of the electric vector then I can calculate the component of the amplitude at 45 degrees. It seems I am misunderstanding your point.
 
  • #23
harrylin said:
Not necessarily so; it is merely a good (and common) first example of such a model. However, particle "spin" as we observe it may thought to be the result of the first measurement interaction; that is also a plausible and realistic assumption. As I understand it, what Bell tried to prove is that even a hidden variable model that does not claim that the measurement outcome already exists before the first measurement, cannot give the same predictions as QM.

But then for the second measurement the hidden variable / realism model has an expectation
outcome before measurement ?
 
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  • #24
harrylin said:
Not necessarily so; it is merely a good (and common) first example of such a model. However, particle "spin" as we observe it may thought to be the result of the first measurement interaction; that is also a plausible and realistic assumption. As I understand it, what Bell tried to prove is that even a hidden variable model that does not claim that the measurement outcome already exists before the first measurement, cannot give the same predictions as QM.

Einstein and whoever P and R were explained why they assumed that the spin must have had a definite value all along: If Alice measures spin-up along a certain direction, then Bob absolutely must measure spin-down along that same direction (in the spin-1/2 version). So the spin measurement can't be the result of a nondeterministic process, because if it were, Bob would sometimes get a different value than spin-down.
 
  • #25
Dadface said:
Your example seems to summarise my main sticking point. What do you mean by "know a photons polarisation"? Know what about it?
If I know that a photon is plane polarised at 0 degrees and if I know the amplitude of the electric vector then I can calculate the component of the amplitude at 45 degrees. It seems I am misunderstanding your point.

Yes, if you know that light was "prepared" at a certain polarization, then you pass it through a polarizing filter at a different angle, you get an attenuation of the intensity given by whatever the formula is: I = I_0 cos^2(\theta), or something like that. That's completely understandable in terms of classical electromagnetism.

If you drop the intensity low enough that you can detect individual photons, then what you see is not a reduced intensity, but nondeterminism: Some photons make it through the filter unchanged, while other photons are absorbed by the filter. The average number of photons that make it through is equal to the classical prediction for intensity attenuation. Again, there is a classical way to understand this using classical nondeterminism: Each photon carries with it a polarization direction, and has probability cos^2(\theta) of passing through a filter oriented at angle \theta relative to the polarization direction.

But now we come to EPR for photons: we have a process for creating two correlated photons that go in opposite directions. We measure one photon at one filter, and the other photon at the other filter. Then what we find is that if a photon passes through one filter, then it passes through the other with probability cos^2(\theta), where \theta is the angle between the filter orientations. How can we explain this in classical terms?

You might think that things would go this way: When the photons are created, they have the same, random, polarization direction \vec{C}. The first filter is oriented in direction \vec{A} and the second filter is oriented in direction \vec{B}. Then the probability of the first photon passing the first filter would be cos^2(\alpha), where \alpha is the angle between \vec{A} and \vec{C}. The probabilty of the second photon passing the second filter would be cos^2(\beta), where \beta is the angle between \vec{B} and \vec{C}. But that model doesn't agree with experiment. To see this, let's set \vec{A} = \vec{B}. Then you would expect that whenever \vec{C} \neq \vec{A}, it would occasionally happen that the first photon would pass the first filter, but the second photon would be absorbed by the second filter. But that never happens. If the two filters are oriented in the same direction, then they always get the same result. It's as if whenever the first filter passes a photon, the photon acts as if its polarization direction was \vec{A} all along (and so was that of its twin).
 
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  • #26
Well blow me down? I started reading your post steven daryl. I read it once, a second time and on the third read a coin started to drop at paragraph three. I'm getting a clearer idea of this now.I probably need to go through it again and will do so.
I think the main thing that I was not aware of or overlooked is that we are dealing with single photons and that each one of these either goes through a filter as a whole unit or not at all.
Thank you.
 
  • #27
Dadface said:
Your example seems to summarise my main sticking point. What do you mean by "know a photons polarisation"? Know what about it?
If I know that a photon is plane polarised at 0 degrees and if I know the amplitude of the electric vector then I can calculate the component of the amplitude at 45 degrees. It seems I am misunderstanding your point.

Adding to what stevendaryl said:

You cannot know both the 0 and 45 degree components precisely and simultaneously for any individual photon. For individual electrons, you can only know one of s_x, s_y and s_z components at a time.

The other components are considered undefined, indefinite, obscured, smeared or some other term which you choose. Some say it is unknown or hidden. The proper word is somewhat a function of interpretation and semantics.
 
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  • #28
Great stuff DrChinese and thanks. I can get a full appreciation of your paper now.
 
  • #29
Dadface said:
Well blow me down? I started reading your post steven daryl. I read it once, a second time and on the third read a coin started to drop at paragraph three. I'm getting a clearer idea of this now.I probably need to go through it again and will do so.
I think the main thing that I was not aware of or overlooked is that we are dealing with single photons and that each one of these either goes through a filter as a whole unit or not at all.
Thank you.

Wow. It almost never happens that I give a long-winded explanation of something and anybody says that they understand the subject better after reading it. It's very gratifying when it does happen.
 
  • #30
stevendaryl said:
It seems to me that counterfactual definiteness is a consequence of his notion of local hidden variables, together with facts about quantum correlations, not an assumption.

[..]

The outcomes are correlated if
P(o_1 \wedge o_2) \neq P_1(o_1) P_2(o_2)

Bell's notion of local hidden variables assumes that all such correlations are explainable in terms of shared histories. That is:

  • There is some set of facts f_1, f_2, ...
  • These facts refer to events or conditions in the common causal past of r_1 and r_2 (that is, these facts refer to the intersection of the backwards light cones of the two regions of spacetime).
  • If these facts were known, then the correlations would disappear:
    P(o_1 \wedge o_2 | f_1, f_2, ...) = P(o_1 | f_1, f_2, ...) P(o_2 | f_1, f_2, ...)

These assumptions by themselves don't imply counterfactual definiteness, and don't assume it. But if the correlations are perfect (which they are in an EPR-type experiment when both experimenters choose the same orientation), then counterfactual definiteness follows.

Bell admitted that the above calculation (or at least what follows after) demands what I understand to be counterfactual definiteness as follows in his paper on Bertlmann's socks:

"it may be that it is not permissible to regard the experimental settings a and b in the analyzers as independent variables, as we did" - and then he included examples of "apparently random [...] devices".

That topic together with a (too?) simple counter example of Bell's (originally Boole's) example was also discussed here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=499002

stevendaryl said:
Einstein and whoever P and R were explained why they assumed that the spin must have had a definite value all along: If Alice measures spin-up along a certain direction, then Bob absolutely must measure spin-down along that same direction (in the spin-1/2 version). So the spin measurement can't be the result of a nondeterministic process, because if it were, Bob would sometimes get a different value than spin-down.
Bell's not necessarily pre-existing polarisation isn't the same thing as a nondeterministic process!

morrobay said:
But then for the second measurement the hidden variable / realism model has an expectation outcome before measurement ?

With "first measurement" I meant the first measurement on a particle, after which it has a certain polarisation. Perhaps you mean with the "second measurement" the first measurement on its twin brother. But yes, I suppose that any model must have a statistical expectation outcome before measurement. (Why the question?)
 
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  • #31
Yes the second measurement, as in the first measurement on the other particle in the entangled
spin 1/2 system pair. The question was on how this second measurement can have an expected
outcome before measurement if the first measurement at Alice can be spin up or spin down.
Therefore the first measurement at Bob (second measurement) would be spin down or spin up.
 
  • #32
harrylin said:
Bell admitted that the above calculation (or at least what follows after) demands what I understand to be counterfactual definiteness as follows in his paper on Bertlmann's socks:

To me, counterfactual definiteness is stronger than the hidden variables assumption. In terms of my notation, it would be the additional assumption that

P(o_1|f_1, f_2, \ldots) =0 or 1[/itex]

That is, the outcome is definite if the underlying causal factors are known. Hidden variables don't seem to imply counterfactual definiteness by themselves, but together with the perfect correlations of EPR, they do.

"it may be that it is not permissible to regard the experimental settings a and b in the analyzers as independent variables, as we did" - and then he included examples of "apparently random [...] devices".

That topic together with a (too?) simple counter example of Bell's (originally Boole's) example was also discussed here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=499002

That's a long thread. Could you summarize what you think is a counterexample to what?

Bell's not necessarily pre-existing polarisation isn't the same thing as a nondeterministic process!

Hmm. In a classical model of nondeterminism, if something isn't determined, then it's nondeterministic, sort of by definition. So I don't know what you mean by that.
 
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  • #33
harrylin said:
"it may be that it is not permissible to regard the experimental settings a and b in the analyzers as independent variables, as we did" - and then he included examples of "apparently random [...] devices".

I just read the relevant passages from Bell's "Speakable and unspeakable in quantum mechanics", and it seems to me that he isn't seriously suggesting such a possibly, he's only saying that it is logically possible. I think it amounts to the "superdeterminism" loophole to Bell's inequalities: If Alice and Bob aren't really free to set their detector orientations any way they choose, but instead are somehow constrained to set them to specific values, and those values are somehow influenced by the hidden variables affecting the twin-pair production, then you can achieve a violation of Bell's inequalities without nonlocal interactions. I don't think superdeterminism is completely out of the question, but it's hard to see how the scientific method can take the possibility of superdeterminism into account. The way we learn about the world is by adjusting some parameter and seeing what follows from that, and if there is no tweaking possible, then experiments aren't possible. You can certainly do science without experiments, with pure observations (basically, astrophysics has to be done this way, because we aren't capable of playing around with black holes and galaxies to see what happens). But it's a very different kind of science, I think.
 
  • #34
stevendaryl said:
But now we come to EPR for photons: we have a process for creating two correlated photons that go in opposite directions. We measure one photon at one filter, and the other photon at the other filter. Then what we find is that if a photon passes through one filter, then it passes through the other with probability cos^2(\theta), where \theta is the angle between the filter orientations. How can we explain this in classical terms?

How can we explain this in QM terms?? :bugeye:

Seriously, nice post stevendaryl. For a long time I’ve been trying to figure out exactly when the shared wavefunction of the two entangled photons collapse/decohere (or split the universe) to set the indefinite state (unknown polarization) to a definite state (polarized)??

Is it when one or the other passes through a filter?
Or, is it when one or the other ‘splash’ into the detector?
Or, is it some other “total-setup-view” criterion [which I think is DrC’s view]?

What also puzzles me is the “live” polarization rotation (by half/quarter-wave plates) that is done in some entanglement swapping experiments, which seems to imply that polarization alternation do not collapse/decohere the shared wavefunction/entanglement, or...??

Do you know?
 
  • #35
DevilsAvocado said:
How can we explain this in QM terms?? :bugeye:

Seriously, nice post stevendaryl. For a long time I’ve been trying to figure out exactly when the shared wavefunction of the two entangled photons collapse/decohere (or split the universe) to set the indefinite state (unknown polarization) to a definite state (polarized)??

Is it when one or the other passes through a filter?
Or, is it when one or the other ‘splash’ into the detector?
Or, is it some other “total-setup-view” criterion [which I think is DrC’s view]?

What also puzzles me is the “live” polarization rotation (by half/quarter-wave plates) that is done in some entanglement swapping experiments, which seems to imply that polarization alternation do not collapse/decohere the shared wavefunction/entanglement, or...??

Do you know?
I'm only a novice with this stuff but I'd guess that it is when the photon is detected, i.e. when it interacts with the detector and thus the energy transforms into an electrical signal.
 
  • #36
DevilsAvocado said:
How can we explain this in QM terms?? :bugeye:

Seriously, nice post stevendaryl. For a long time I’ve been trying to figure out exactly when the shared wavefunction of the two entangled photons collapse/decohere (or split the universe) to set the indefinite state (unknown polarization) to a definite state (polarized)??

Is it when one or the other passes through a filter?
Or, is it when one or the other ‘splash’ into the detector?
Or, is it some other “total-setup-view” criterion [which I think is DrC’s view]?

Well, for all practical purposes, it doesn't matter when the collapse happens. You could even imagine it happening 10 years after the measurement was made. The Many World's Interpretation basically amounts to taking the limit: the collapse never happens. Or alternatively, you can imagine that at the end of history, someone finally compiles a "history of the universe" that documents everything that ever happened, and it is that historian's observations that collapse the wavefunction. It doesn't make any difference, because of decoherence.
 
  • #37
Badvok said:
I'm only a novice with this stuff but I'd guess that it is when the photon is detected, i.e. when it interacts with the detector and thus the energy transforms into an electrical signal.

That's the moment when it becomes practically impossible to observe interference effects between different states (because there can't be any measurable inference involving macroscopic objects). That doesn't actually mean that a collapse has happened, but it means that you if you assume that it has happened, you won't be proved wrong.
 
  • #38
stevendaryl said:
Well, for all practical purposes, it doesn't matter when the collapse happens.

Oops, my fault... seems like we’re going down in Nugatory’s dreadful “rabbit hole”... :smile:

Let’s rephrase the question:

Exactly when is it not longer possible to perform an[other] action on one entangled photon that have an influence on its partner?


[the obvious answer is the detector/measurement, but I know DrC will maybe not agree on this one... :wink:]
 
  • #39
Badvok said:
I'm only a novice with this stuff but I'd guess that it is when the photon is detected, i.e. when it interacts with the detector and thus the energy transforms into an electrical signal.

That’s the obvious conclusion, but as you see – the daunting “rabbit hole” is approaching at the collapsed horizon... :smile:
 
  • #40
stevendaryl said:
This is perhaps an overly picky point, but a hidden variables theory does NOT by itself say that the particle is really spin up or spin down all along. Instead, it allows for the spin outcome to be a possibly nondeterministic function of the state of the detector and the state of the particle being detected. But the existence of perfect correlations (in the case of distant detectors measuring along the same axis) implies that a hidden variables explanation can't possibly agree with experiment unless that outcome is a deterministic function of the hidden variable and the detector orientation. So the claim that the spin had a definite value all along is a conclusion from the local hidden variables assumption, it's not assumed.

In post #24 you said that EPR assumed there were definite values all along.
Thats my understanding of the EPR assumption.That well defined states exist independent of observation. And measuement on one particle does not affect its entangled twin.
And these ± spin values are from detector measurements along the same axis: One permutation of eight being
xyz-------------------------------xyz
-+-.........+-+
From here the inequality n[x+,y+] ≤ n[x+,z+] + n[y-,z-] which QM shows to be violated with
1/2(sin(∅/2)2 ≤ 1/2(sin(∅/2)2 + 1/2sin(∅/2)2
 
  • #41
morrobay said:
In post #24 you said that EPR assumed there were definite values all along.
Thats my understanding of the EPR assumption.That well defined states exist independent of observation. And measuement on one particle does not affect its entangled twin.
And these ± spin values are from detector measurements along the same axis: One permutation of eight being
xyz-------------------------------xyz
-+-.........+-+
From here the inequality n[x+,y+] ≤ n[x+,z+] + n[y-,z-] which QM shows to be violated with
1/2(sin(∅/2)2 ≤ 1/2(sin(∅/2)2 + 1/2sin(∅/2)2

stevendaryl said:
This is perhaps an overly picky point, but a hidden variables theory does NOT by itself say that the particle is really spin up or spin down all along. Instead, it allows for the spin outcome to be a possibly nondeterministic function of the state of the detector and the state of the particle being detected. But the existence of perfect correlations (in the case of distant detectors measuring along the same axis) implies that a hidden variables explanation can't possibly agree with experiment unless that outcome is a deterministic function of the hidden variable and the detector orientation. So the claim that the spin had a definite value all along is a conclusion from the local hidden variables assumption, it's not assumed.

So there seems to be a difference between the assumptions in an EPR hidden variable theory:
That a particle has well defined spin before measurement. And the above hidden variable theory
where the particle does not have spin all along. A Bell assumption ?. Because if it allows for the
spin outcome to be a nondetermiistic function of the state of the detector and the state of
the particle being detected then this is getting very close to non realism ?
 
  • #42
morrobay said:
So there seems to be a difference between the assumptions in an EPR hidden variable theory:
That a particle has well defined spin before measurement. And the above hidden variable theory
where the particle does not have spin all along. A Bell assumption ?. Because if it allows for the
spin outcome to be a nondetermiistic function of the state of the detector and the state of
the particle being detected then this is getting very close to non realism ?

As I said, that the spin result existed before the measurement is a conclusion, rather than an assumption. You can start off with a function

P(\alpha | \lambda) = the probability of Alice measuring spin-up at angle \alpha, given that the hidden variable has value \lambda. But the perfect anti-correlation (in the spin-1/2 case) between the two particles implies that
P(\alpha | \lambda) must be either 0 or 1---that is, it has to be deterministic.
 
  • #43
morrobay said:
So there seems to be a difference between the assumptions in an EPR hidden variable theory:
That a particle has well defined spin before measurement. And the above hidden variable theory
where the particle does not have spin all along. A Bell assumption ?. Because if it allows for the
spin outcome to be a nondeterministic function of the state of the detector and the state of
the particle being detected then this is getting very close to non realism ?

Stevendaryl's point is that a theory cannot be local AND non-deterministic AND predict perfect anti-correlation when the detectors are exactly opposite. We know we get perfect anti-correlation, so we're allowed non-local non-deterministic theories, local deterministic theories, and non-local deterministic theories. Bell's theorem allows us to test for and reject the local deterministic theories, which are the ones that EPR considered.
 
  • #44
morrobay said:
So there seems to be a difference between the assumptions in an EPR hidden variable theory:
That a particle has well defined spin before measurement. And the above hidden variable theory
where the particle does not have spin all along. A Bell assumption ?. Because if it allows for the
spin outcome to be a nondetermiistic function of the state of the detector and the state of
the particle being detected then this is getting very close to non realism ?


http://www.tau.ac.il/~vaidman/lvhp/m105.pdf
"the core of the controversy is that quantum counterfactuals about the results of measurements of observables, and especially “elements of reality” are understood as attributing values to observables which are not observed. But this is completely foreign to quantum mechanics. Unperformed experiments have no results! “Element of reality” is just a shorthand for describing a situation in which we know with certainty the outcome of a measurement if it is to be performed, which in turn helps us to know how weakly coupled particles are influenced by the system. Having “elements of reality” does not mean having values for observables. The semantics are misleading since “elements of reality” are not “real” in the ontological sense"


.
 
  • #46
harrylin said:
Bell admitted that the above calculation (or at least what follows after) demands what I understand to be counterfactual definiteness as follows in his paper on Bertlmann's socks:

"it may be that it is not permissible to regard the experimental settings a and b in the analyzers as independent variables, as we did" - and then he included examples of "apparently random [...] devices".

That topic together with a (too?) simple counter example of Bell's (originally Boole's) example was also discussed here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=499002 [..]
stevendaryl said:
[..]
That's a long thread. Could you summarize what you think is a counterexample to what?
Yes, sorry for the delay! I had to refresh my memory first.

De Raedt attempted to give a counter example to Bell's derivation method. His simple counter example is given on p.25, 26 of http://arxiv.org/abs/0901.2546 :

In this second variation of the investigation, we let only two
doctors, one in Lille and one in Lyon perform the examina-
tions. The doctor in Lille examines randomly all patients of
types a and b and the one in Lyon all of type b and c each one
patient at a randomly chosen date. The doctors are convinced
that neither the date of examination nor the location (Lille or
Lyon) has any influence and therefore denote the patients only
by their place of birth. After a lengthy period of examination
they find
Γ(w) = Aa (w)Ab (w) + Aa (w)Ac (w) + Ab (w)Ac (w) = −3

They further notice that the single outcomes of Aa (w), Ab (w)
and Ac (w) are randomly equal to ±1. [..]
a single outcome manifests itself randomly in one city and [..]
the outcome in the other city is then always of opposite sign

Perhaps the weakest point of that example is that the freely chosen detector position of Bell tests with anti-correlation is not fully matched by it. And it is still unclear to me if that is impossible to implement in an example, or only difficult to do. Consequently, the question is for me still open if Bell's assumptions about local realism were valid or not.
 
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  • #47
harrylin said:
Yes, sorry for the delay! I had to refresh my memory first.

De Raedt attempted to give a counter example to Bell's derivation method. His simple counter example is given on p.25, 26 of http://arxiv.org/abs/0901.2546 :

In this second variation of the investigation, we let only two
doctors, one in Lille and one in Lyon perform the examina-
tions. The doctor in Lille examines randomly all patients of
types a and b and the one in Lyon all of type b and c each one
patient at a randomly chosen date. The doctors are convinced
that neither the date of examination nor the location (Lille or
Lyon) has any influence and therefore denote the patients only
by their place of birth. After a lengthy period of examination
they find
Γ(w) = Aa (w)Ab (w) + Aa (w)Ac (w) + Ab (w)Ac (w) = −3

They further notice that the single outcomes of Aa (w), Ab (w)
and Ac (w) are randomly equal to ±1. [..]
a single outcome manifests itself randomly in one city and [..]
the outcome in the other city is then always of opposite sign

That's not a counter-example.

What they claim to violate is Bell's original 1964 inequality. Bell's original inequality is something of an odd duckling in the zoology of Bell inequalities in that it relies on an extra (but entirely observable) assumption. Specifically, in their notation, and putting the locations back on (Lille = 1, Lyon = 2), the Bell inequality uses the assumption that A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) = A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w). This is observable, since it implies that \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = 1, and it just means that the correct way to state Bell's inequality should really be something like
\langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{a}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle + \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{a}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{c}}(w) \rangle + \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{c}}(w) \rangle \geq -1 \quad \text{given that} \quad \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = 1 \,.
Their counter-example isn't a counter-example because it has \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = -1. Incidentally, if you try to read the inequality above in the same way as other Bell inequalities (i.e. without imposing a condition like A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) = A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w)), then it's easy to see that its local bound is actually -3 (the same as the algebraic bound) instead of -1.

So they've demonstrated a "violation" of the 1964 Bell inequality in a way that breaks a necessary and verifiable condition for it to hold as a test of locality in the first place. Their approach simply wouldn't work for any other Bell inequality, such as CHSH, that doesn't rely on a condition like this.

Later, in section VII.B, they give another "counter-example" that similarly only works because they define their model such that E(\mathbf{b}, \mathbf{b}) = 4/\pi - 1 \neq 1. Of course, as they themselves point out, their model is incapable of violating the CHSH inequality.

On a side note, a concluding remark toward the end of section VII.A

Because no \lambda exists that would lead to a violation except a \lambda that depends on the index pairs (a, b), (a, c) and (b, c) the simplistic conclusion is that either elements of reality do not exist or they are non-local. The mistake here is that Bell and followers insist from the start that the same element of reality occurs for the three different experiments with three different setting pairs. This assumption implies the existence of the combinatorial-topological cyclicity that in turn implies the validity of a non-trivial inequality but has no physical basis. Why should the elements of reality not all be different? Why should they, for example not include the time of measurement? There is furthermore no reason why there should be no parameter of the equipment involved. Thus the equipment could involve time and setting dependent parameters such as \lambda_{\mathbf{a}}(t), \lambda_{\mathbf{b}}(t), \lambda_{\mathbf{c}}(t) and the functions A might depend on these parameters as well

reveals some basic confusions about what Bell's theorem actually implies and the assumptions underpinning it. Basically, if S is some Bell correlator that you could measure, with a local bound T_{\text{local}}, then the authors seem to be reading Bell's theorem as implying a logical or algebraic constraint on S:
S \leq T_{\text{local}} \,.
For certain simple correlation inequalities this holds, as the authors say, if you assume that the hidden variable \lambda is the same each time you do the test. But obviously we don't want to assume that, and what Bell's theorem actually proves is more like a bound on the expectation value of S, i.e. something more like
\langle S \rangle \leq T_{\text{local}} \,.
This means that, according to locality, it is entirely possible to do a Bell test and measure a value for S that violates the local bound. It's just that the chance of this happening rapidly becomes very small if you do the test on (say) a very large number of entangled particles. So if you do a Bell test on a very large number of particles and get something significantly above the local bound, the idea is that you can rule out locality with very high confidence.

Finally, the authors suggest that the hidden variable \lambda should be allowed to depend explicitly on time and possibly on the detector settings. Of course, letting \lambda depend explicitly on time doesn't really affect Bell's theorem (it holds regardless of the probability distribution \rho(\lambda) explicitly appearing in proofs of Bell inequalities, so allowing the probability distribution to change in time won't accomplish much). For a properly performed Bell test, letting \lambda depend on the detector settings is normally argued away on the basis of the so-called "free will" or "no conspiracies" assumption (it could also occur if you allow retrocausality, which is not included in the definition of Bell-locality).
 
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  • #48
wle said:
reveals some basic confusions about what Bell's theorem actually implies

:rolleyes: a interpretation of bell, aforegoing , bells interpretation of einstein..
 
  • #49
wle said:
That's not a counter-example.



Finally, the authors suggest that the hidden variable \lambda should be allowed to depend explicitly on time and possibly on the detector settings. Of course, letting \lambda depend explicitly on time doesn't really affect Bell's theorem (it holds regardless of the probability distribution \rho(\lambda) explicitly appearing in proofs of Bell inequalities, so allowing the probability distribution to change in time won't accomplish much). For a properly performed Bell test, letting \lambda depend on the detector settings is normally argued away on the basis of the so-called "free will" or "no conspiracies" assumption (it could also occur if you allow retrocausality, which is not included in the definition of Bell-locality).

Then am I understanding that when detector settings are parallel: P(α|λ| is deterministic.
And when detector settings are not parallel then P(α|λ| is non-deterministic, depending on state of particle at time of measurement in relation to detector setting ? If so can this still be a local realistic assumption ?
 
  • #50
wle said:
[..] What they claim to violate is Bell's original 1964 inequality. Bell's original inequality is something of an odd duckling in the zoology of Bell inequalities in that it relies on an extra (but entirely observable) assumption. [..] the correct way to state Bell's inequality should really be something like
\langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{a}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle + \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{a}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{c}}(w) \rangle + \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{c}}(w) \rangle \geq -1 \quad \text{given that} \quad \langle A^{1}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) A^{2}_{\mathbf{b}}(w) \rangle = 1 \,. [..]
So they've demonstrated a "violation" of the 1964 Bell inequality in a way that breaks a necessary and verifiable condition for it to hold as a test of locality in the first place. [..]
In words, [Edit:] I first thought that you mean, perhaps: an entangled particle spin measurement at location 1 must give the same result as the measurement of that same particle spin for the same angle at location 2. How can one measure the state of the same elementary particle in two locations without having interfered with it??
However, that's not what the suffix b means in this example, nor in that of Bell. The condition about entangled particles, which is projected on this example about patients, is that an entangled particle spin measurement at location 1 must give the opposite result as the measurement of the spin of its corresponding particle for the same angle at location 2. It is this verified condition that is exactly reproduced in their illustration about patients, although in a rather artificial way.
[..] On a side note, a concluding remark toward the end of section VII.A
reveals some basic confusions about what Bell's theorem actually implies and the assumptions underpinning it. Basically, if S is some Bell correlator that you could measure, with a local bound T_{\text{local}}, then the authors seem to be reading Bell's theorem as implying a logical or algebraic constraint on S [..] But obviously we don't want to assume that, and what Bell's theorem actually proves is more like a bound on the expectation value of S [..]
They definitely read Bell's theorem as possible correlations between data, or in other words, mathematical expectations and correlations related to the data - as they explained in the introduction.
if you do a Bell test on a very large number of particles and get something significantly above the local bound, the idea is that you can rule out locality with very high confidence.
Yes, that's certainly the idea. :wink:
For a properly performed Bell test, letting \lambda depend on the detector settings is normally argued away on the basis of the so-called "free will" or "no conspiracies" assumption (it could also occur if you allow retrocausality, which is not included in the definition of Bell-locality).
It appears that the authors considered non-conspiracy solutions.
 
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