Red shift and the maths for gravity

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between Hubble's Constant, gravity, and redshift, exploring whether the mathematical treatment of these concepts is based on Newtonian or Einsteinian frameworks. The scope includes theoretical considerations and mathematical reasoning related to cosmology and general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how Hubble's Constant relates to gravity, asking if it is treated under Newtonian or Einsteinian theories.
  • Another participant clarifies that Friedmann equations, which relate to Hubble's Constant, are derived from Einstein's field equations, indicating a general relativistic approach, but acknowledges that they can be approximated using Newtonian mechanics.
  • A participant expresses concern that the mathematical treatment seems biased towards an expanding universe and questions whether gravity is considered a compounding factor in redshift calculations.
  • In response, another participant argues that the assumptions in the derivation of the equations are well-founded, stating that general relativity is a good approximation of gravity and that the universe is homogeneous and isotropic.
  • This participant explains that the relativistic equations indicate that the universe must either expand or contract, leading to redshift or blueshift, respectively, and emphasizes that expansion is a conclusion drawn from existing observations.
  • There is a discussion about whether gravity contributes to redshift, with one participant suggesting that redshift is a result of gravity due to the dynamics of matter, while another clarifies that local gravitational effects, such as gravitational redshift, are not included in the derivation due to the assumption of homogeneity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the mathematical treatment of redshift and gravity, with some agreeing on the foundational assumptions of general relativity while others question the perceived bias towards an expanding universe. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the role of gravity in redshift calculations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the assumptions made in the derivation of the equations may limit the treatment of local gravitational effects and that the scope of the discussion is constrained by the homogeneity assumption.

trevor white
Messages
9
Reaction score
1
I have looked but do not seem to be able to pin down how Hubble's Constant deals with Gravity. Is it considered as Newtonian or Einstein special theory?
 
Space news on Phys.org
It's unclear on what level you want the answer. You've selected 'A', but the wording of your question suggests you're new to the subject.

Anyway, Friedmann equations are derived from Einstein's field equations (so they're general relativistic). With some fudging they can be derived using Newtonian mechanics. Details here:
http://diposit.ub.edu/dspace/bitstream/2445/59759/1/TFG-Arnau-Romeu-Joan.pdf
 
that was interesting and you are right should not have been A. Although maybe not as that was part of the answer I was looking for. The assumption in this maths appears to indicate a bias towards an expanding universe which though interesting brings me to my next question. This does not appear to treat gravity as a compounding factor in the red shift of light. would that be a correct assumption?
 
(Changed thread prefix from A=Advanced/PhD level to I=Intermediate/Undergrad level) :smile:
 
trevor white said:
The assumption in this maths appears to indicate a bias towards an expanding universe
I don't think that's a fair representation of what's going on in there.
You could say that there are two assumptions used in the derivation: 1) that General Relativity is to a good approximation an accurate theory of gravity, and 2) that the large scale universe is homogeneous and isotropic.
Both assumptions are well-founded in observations, so it's not like we've got much choice there.

Solving the relativistic equations for a homogeneous and isotropic distribution of energy, it is found that there are no static solutions, so the universe has to either expand or contract. Expansion leads to redshift, contraction leads to blueshift.
Again, observations constrain our choices in this matter.

So I'm not sure I know what you mean by bias. Expansion is the conclusion resulting from application of existing knowledge. If you still disagree, please be more specific and point out where you see the bias.

trevor white said:
This does not appear to treat gravity as a compounding factor in the red shift of light.
Compounding in what way? Since redshift is a necessary result of expansion, and expansion (or contraction) is the large-scale behaviour of matter whose dynamics are governed by gravity, then one could say with some degree of accuracy that redshift is the result of gravity. I.e., gravity is why there's the redshift in the first place.

Unless you mean here local effects of gravity, such as gravitational redshift e.g. when light has to climb out of a gravity well or the Integrated Sachs-Wolfe effect. Then no, these are not included, due to the assumption of homogeneity that was used in the derivation.
However, the former doesn't contribute, due to symmetry of the effect, while the latter is taken into account in more detailed treatments (it's also tiny in magnitude when compared to cosmological redshift).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Drakkith

Similar threads

  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
3K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
2K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
4K