Reversing direction on a spinning cylinder of water

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the design of a drive system for a clothes washer drum that spins a load of water and clothes. Participants explore the torque requirements, energy dynamics, and motor specifications necessary for the system, focusing on the deceleration and direction change of the spinning drum.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines the need for a torque curve to illustrate the deceleration and direction change of the drum, which contains 170 lbs of water and clothes spinning at 95 rpm.
  • Another participant notes that the moment of inertia is affected by the rpm and that the water inside the drum does not behave as a rigid body, potentially complicating the torque calculations.
  • Details about the drum diameter (563mm) and the vertical axis of rotation are provided, along with the drum being approximately 80% full at maximum load.
  • A participant calculates the peak angular velocity, centrifugal force, moment of inertia, and energy requirements during the acceleration phase, suggesting that a brushless DC motor may be suitable for handling the energy recovery during deceleration.
  • Concerns are raised about the need to manage the extracted energy during deceleration to prevent damage to the system, including potential issues with mounts and belts.
  • Another participant suggests using a brushless DC permanent magnet motor with specific power and storage requirements, along with control mechanisms for torque management.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the motor design and energy management aspects, with no consensus reached on the optimal solution or specific design parameters. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to handle the torque and energy dynamics.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention several assumptions, such as the behavior of water in the drum and the effects of centrifugal force, which may not be fully accounted for in the calculations. The discussion also highlights the complexity of the energy recovery process, which remains a point of contention.

billinr
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I have an application (clothes washer) which requires a drive design such that:

The drum contains 170 lbs of water and clothes, spinning at 95 rpm. The drum spins at this speed for 1 second, then decelerates for 0.25 seconds and reverses direction.

This process repeats for 30 minutes.

My problem is that I haven't a clue as to how to construct the torque curve to show the deceleration and direction change, and my task is to design the drive belt.

The drive pulley for this drum is aluminum, and is 234mm in diameter.

Could anyone assisst in providing the torque values seen at the pulley?

Thank you
 
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This is a very interesting problem. Because the force on the water includes both gravity and the centrifugal force, the moment of inertia depends on the rpm of the drum. Another interesting parameter is that the drum with water is not a rigid body; the water does not accelerate and decelerate as fast as the drum itself. Maybe this is negligible when the drum is full of laundry. We are missing one critical parameter: the diameter of the drum.
Bob S
 
Apologies for leaving out that piece of information.

The drum diameter is 563mm.
There are baffels within the drum, so I would probably increase the torque requirement (maybe 10%?).
The drum and pulley share the same axis.

Thank you
 
I forgot to ask: Is the drum rotating about a vertical or horizontal axis? And about what % of drum volume is filled with water?
Bob S
 
The drum axis is vertical.
At max load (stated), drum is approximately 80% full.
 
Perhaps I did not read you question correctly.
The drum holds 90.6L of water. The remainder of the weight is clothing.
 
Hi billinr
The peak angular velocity is about ω = 9.95 radians per second, and the peak centrifugal force at the outside radius is about 27.7 m/sec2 (~2.82 g’s). The moment of inertia of a full load (using 80 Kg load), including an allowance for the washer drum, is about I = 3.9 Kg-m2. The total stored energy at peak RPM is about ½ I ω2 = 193 joules, so the average power required during the 0.25-second acceleration phase is 772 watts. The average torque during the 0.25 sec acceleration cycle is L = Idω/dt = I ω/0.25 sec = 155 Newton-meters. If the torque is constant during the acceleration phase, the peak power is roughly P= ωL = 1540 watts.

This required repetitive torque over the complete acceleration cycle cannot be handled by an induction motor. Furthermore, the deceleration phase will require extracting 193 joules, prior to acceleration in the opposite direction. This extracted energy probably should not be absorbed by the motor itself, but is best handled by a brushless dc (BLDC) motor (with a permanent magnet rotor and a Hall-Effect-sensor-switched stator coil), with a ~20:1 RPM reduction ratio. The BLDC motor can operate as part of a kinetic energy recovery system and transfer the extracted energy somewhere else as electrical energy until the acceleration phase.

There are two difficult problems. Kinetic or electrical energy has to be repetitively extracted and stored somewhere for ~ ½ second. And the energy recovery motor probably should have a ~20:1 speed reduction ratio (with friction losses).

I hope this helps.

Bob S
 
Bob S.

Thank you for all of that information! That will be a big help in finishing this design.
While I really cannot speak to the motor design, I can see where all of that kinetic energy has to go somewhere... conversations I have had tell tales of self-destructing mounts, broken belts, etc.
That's what I have to fix next! At least now I know why...

Thanks again. I really appreciate all of your help.
 
If I were designing this, I would probably use a brushless dc permanent magnet motor in the ~ 1 to 2 HP range, together with IGBTs (insulated gate bipolar transistors), a battery capable of storing ~ 300 joules, and a microprocessor to control the torque, going up and going down. I would talk to Bodine Electric about brushless dc gearmotors. See
http://www.bodine-electric.com/

ps. The engine in my car can produce only about 200 Newton meters (Nm) of torque. I normally use about 30 Nm to drive at 30 mph. 30 Nm x 2000 RPM = 6300 watts = 8.4 HP.
Bob S
 
Last edited:

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