News San Francisco's Proposed Law: Banning Handguns for Residents?

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San Francisco is considering a law to ban handguns for residents, exempting police and military personnel. The discussion highlights differing opinions on gun ownership, with some arguing that banning handguns would empower criminals while others believe stricter laws could enhance public safety. Concerns about current gun control laws include loopholes in registration and insufficient background check processes. Proponents of gun ownership emphasize the importance of responsible use and the various non-lethal applications of firearms, while opponents question the necessity of handguns specifically. The debate reflects deep societal divisions on the role of guns in American life and the effectiveness of gun control measures.

Do you think Guns Should be Banned?

  • Ban all guns

    Votes: 10 30.3%
  • Ban all hand guns

    Votes: 2 6.1%
  • Ban Concealed Weapons Only

    Votes: 3 9.1%
  • Current Gun Laws are just fine-Thank you

    Votes: 18 54.5%

  • Total voters
    33
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San Francisco is proposing a law that will ban handguns for its residents excluding, of course, the police, military, security and other jobs that require one to own a handgun.

I can find no reason for anyone to have a handgun at home or even carry one around. I know this is a hot topic, but thought it would be interesting to see what others' opinions are on the subject.

For the general public:
Do you think people should own guns?
Do you think people need to own guns?
Do you think current gun control laws (Federal) are a true form of control? -- okay obviously I have a bias based on how the question is posed.
 
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Banning hand guns just gives criminals more advantage than they already have. I own several guns. I can tell you that since I have owned a handgun I have realized how easy it is to carry one concealed. If criminals knew that most people would cease to carry because it is illegal then doesn't that give them advantages? The way it is now you NEVER KNOW who is carrying. Doesn't this give the general public an advantage because it is less likely a criminal will try to pull something knowing that he could get a shell in the back of his head because someone could have a gun? Do you really think gun laws will keep criminals from getting guns? There are a lot more uses for guns than shooting people. If shooting people is the only reason you can think of then YOU are the cold blooded one, not the honest people who choose to own guns and use them responsibly and in some cases actually wear them out. You act as if every gun ever sold has an owner who is just waiting to use it in a murder. I will also tell you that if guns are banned information will pop up everywhere on how to make your own gun. It's really not that hard to make one with some basic metalworking equipment. Guns are too much part of society in the U.S. to change the way people feel about them.
 
To be fair, I should have added a fifth poll choice -- Current Gun Laws need to be revised -- as it is the poll does not consider many aspects of the current gun laws that I find disturbing.

For instance, the law requires one to registered and be licensed to own a gun, yet there are no provisions requiring gun owners to update their license when they move or sell their gun. This is a huge loop hole within gun control in my opinion. Another problem is that the turn-around for background checks is only 24 hours -- is that really sufficient time? With such a powerful item, I think more time should be required.

Plus state to state laws differ greatly and I find all sorts of possible dangers that allow criminals to acquire guns too easily.
 
Averagesupernova said:
Banning hand guns just gives criminals more advantage than they already have. .

The idea, of course, is that banning hand guns would keep it away from criminals. I imagine this is a high expectation, but making guns very difficult to acquire makes me feel safer.

Averagesupernova said:
I own several guns. I can tell you that since I have owned a handgun I have realized how easy it is to carry one concealed. If criminals knew that most people would cease to carry because it is illegal then doesn't that give them advantages? The way it is now you NEVER KNOW who is carrying. Doesn't this give the general public an advantage because it is less likely a criminal will try to pull something knowing that he could get a shell in the back of his head because someone could have a gun? .

I don't agree with your philosophy. The legality of a concealed weapon (very few states allow it) does not deter a criminal from purchasing, owning, or using a gun. Criminals, however, will use guns differently from the general public. Criminals use this weapon for control, to make threats and to carry out those threats. For the most part, criminals do not act on logic. There is usually a desperate driving force behind their crimes. Guns help them achieve those goals. But guns are the most deadly tools available to them. Again, making such an item as difficult to acquire as possible weakens a criminals advantage.

Averagesupernova said:
Do you really think gun laws will keep criminals from getting guns? .

No. Certainly not in its current form.

But in Washington DC where handguns were made illegal in 1976, the murder rate dropped by 25% the next year. I believe stricter gun laws do make a difference. This can also be seen around the world. Japan which restricts guns all together has one of the lowest murder rates for a highly populated country.

Averagesupernova said:
There are a lot more uses for guns than shooting people. If shooting people is the only reason you can think of then YOU are the cold blooded one, not the honest people who choose to own guns and use them responsibly and in some cases actually wear them out. You act as if every gun ever sold has an owner who is just waiting to use it in a murder. I will also tell you that if guns are banned information will pop up everywhere on how to make your own gun.

I know there are a lot of uses for guns. But a hand gun, in my opinion, has little use. If you like hunting, use a rifle. If you want to protect your home, use a rifle or shotgun. A hand gun can be substituted. Like you said, it is way too easy to conceal a hand gun, which makes it an attractive choice for criminals.

I didn't say anything negative about the general public's use of guns. I think you are reading too much into my post. I will say, however, that guns by definition are a weapon created to damage and kill. The intent of a gun owner may be to protect oneself, which is fine by me. Nevertheless, the owner should be very aware of a gun's abilities. It is not your average self-defense weapon. When used the results can be absolute.

Averagesupernova said:
It's really not that hard to make one with some basic metalworking equipment.

The intent of gun control is to make it as close to impossible for a criminal to own a gun. We can't stop criminals from making a gun or a bomb for that matter. But most people would agree that bombs should be illegal. It's making the item as non-accessible to criminal as possible that is most important.

Averagesupernova said:
Guns are too much part of society in the U.S. to change the way people feel about them.

I do not believe guns are so ingrained into the US populations society that laws cannot be changed to be stricter.
 
Raven. I think you and I are just from such completely different lifestyles that we will not agree on this. I HAVE used both guns and bombs as a civilian for things other than illegal damage to property and killing. The bomb part might come a little hard to believe, but it is true. I myself was not the one to 'light the fuse'. I hired 2 men who had the proper credentials to obtain the materials. I watched, it was very interesting. I can tell you are probably someone who has never actually used a gun. Protection of property with a shotgun or rifle? Yeah, that might work when you see someone coming up the sidewalk to your house, but dropping them right there is considered murder. The advantage of a handgun is it is easily pointed. Take the time needed to swing a rifle around at your victim and you will be shot first because they will see it long before they would see a handgun. The element of surprise is taken away with larger guns.

I will add that I have also made my own bow and arrow. It's very easy. A cross bow is not much more difficult to make and just as deadly as a gun. The problem is NOT the weapons. It is the people who have a motive to use them.
 
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My platform:

1. Close the loophole, have a national database of gun transactions that is kept up to date. Justification: "Well regulated militia".

2. Concealed carry. Justification; "Right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
 
It must really be hard to live in the states. Enemies in every corner of the streets...just waiting to kill you and your family.
Of course you need guns to protect yourselves.

Here people are just so naive, they never carry any guns at all. It makes me feel so unsafe! And our crime rates are so high compared to yours...
 
The Simpsons said:
" A gun is not a weapon, Marge, it's a tool. Like a butcher knife or a harpoon, or... or an alligator." - Homer

"I felt an incredible surge of power, like God must feel when he's holding a gun." - Homer

"If a gun can protect something as important as a bar, then it's good enough to protect my family." - Homer

"I don't have to be careful, I've got a gun." - Homer

"Marge: Mmm! No! [pulls gun from Homer] No one’s using this gun! The TV said you’re 58 percent more likely to shoot a family member than an intruder!

Homer: TV said that . . . ? But I have to have a gun! It’s in the Constitution!

Lisa: Dad! The Second Amendment is just a remnant from revolutionary days. It has no meaning today!

Homer: You couldn’t be more wrong, Lisa. If I didn’t have this gun, the king of England could just walk in here anytime he wants and start shoving you around. [pushing Lisa] Do you want that? [pushing her harder] Huh? Do you?

Lisa: [quietly indignant] No . . .

Homer: All right, then.

I personally think guns should have been banned a long time ago, especiall handguns. I would be fine if rifles and other hunting guns were still allowed, but I see no real good use for handguns.

Averagesupernova, what uses do guns have? (This is a serious question btw.)
 
It must really be hard to live in the states. Enemies in every corner of the streets...just waiting to kill you and your family.
Of course you need guns to protect yourselves.

Here people are just so naive, they never carry any guns at all. It makes me feel so unsafe! And our crime rates are so high compared to yours...

Obviously a skewed view of the U.S.

I personally think guns should have been banned a long time ago, especiall handguns. I would be fine if rifles and other hunting guns were still allowed, but I see no real good use for handguns.

Averagesupernova, what uses do guns have? (This is a serious question btw.)

You can't possibly be serious. If you are thinking this way then why not ask what use is anything? Target practice, hunting? Oh wait, I know. You are going to ask what is the use of target practice with a handgun when there are no uses for them. Well why the hell do we have races like the Indy 500? No one is actually going to get out on the road and drive that way right?

Example: Tall tree branch breaks off in a storm. I safely blasted it where it was still attached with a 12 gauge. 4 shots and it came down. I could have hired someone to come with a bucket truck, climbed it myself or whatever. Just remember guys, your freedom ends where someone elses begins. I believe it is unreasonable to require your neighbor to give up his weapons because you have an unreasonable fear of them.
 
  • #10
Well I meant reasons other than the obvious (target practice, hunting). And yes I know, what is the use of a football, well to play football. See but footballs are not used to kill people. Hunting I can understand, you like to hunt, its a sport. This should limit hunters to only buying rifles, or guns that are strictly for sport, I guess shotguns if you hunt ducks. The question is can an alternative ammo be used that will not injure humans, but will still hurt/incapacitate/kill your game? Also the same goes for target practice. Do you really need to use steel, or whatever bullets are made out of, for ammo? Could you use an ammo that would not kill humans, but would still work for target pracitce?

Your example is terrible, imo, shooting a tree. Personally I would have cut it down with a saw, or used a rope and pull it down. Yes I know, the tree could have landed on me or whatever, but I would find a workaround. Woops I missed the tree, hope the stray bullet/s do not kill anyone.
 
  • #11
mattmns said:
Your example is terrible, imo, shooting a tree. Personally I would have cut it down with a saw, or used a rope and pull it down. Yes I know, the tree could have landed on me or whatever, but I would find a workaround. Woops I missed the tree, hope the stray bullet/s do not kill anyone.


LOL Ah yes. Once again you have answers for something you know nothing about. It was unsafe to saw. I thought I made that clear. Use a rope? Not only unsafe in the circumstances to get the rope up there, but I couldn't pull it anywhere. Crowded conditions. You weren't there, you wouldn't know other than taking my word for it. Tell you what. The next time I have to shoot something that in my judgement could be done in a different but possibly unsafe method, I'll give you a call. By your comment about bullets killing someone you have proven how little you know about guns. 12 gauge (what I used) is a shotgun. They shoot a number of pellets out of a shell and not bullets. Also, any moron who shoots a gun should know that you never point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot. This includes what is in the background. I am a firm believer in exposing kids to guns on a limited basis. Kids that grow up with guns have a much better understanding and respect for them than those who do not, such as yourself.
 
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  • #12
Averagesupernova said:
LOL Ah yes. Once again you have answers for something you know nothing about. It was unsafe to saw. I thought I made that clear. Use a rope? Not only unsafe in the circumstances to get the rope up there, but I couldn't pull it anywhere. Crowded conditions. You weren't there, you wouldn't know other than taking my word for it. Tell you what. The next time I have to shoot something that in my judgement could be done in a different but possibly unsafe method, I'll give you a call.

Well sorry, I do not know you or the situation. You said you used a gun to take down a tree, that just sounded a bit crazy to me, and I would not be surprised if people actually did do that sometimes without considering other alternatives. However, if you considered every alternative and were forced into shooting it, then that is understandable, and acceptable.

Averagesupernova said:
It was unsafe to saw. I thought I made that clear.

But all you said was this...

Averagesupernova said:
Example: Tall tree branch breaks off in a storm. I safely blasted it where it was still attached with a 12 gauge. 4 shots and it came down. I could have hired someone to come with a bucket truck, climbed it myself or whatever. Just remember [...] .

You never said anything about the circumstances other than that you "blasted" it off, and that you could have "climbed it myself or whatever." This is why I lead to my original conclusion.



edit...
Averagesupernova said:
By your comment about bullets killing someone you have proven how little you know about guns. 12 gauge (what I used) is a shotgun. They shoot a number of pellets out of a shell and not bullets

Yes I know shotguns shoot a number of pellets. I was not referring to your specific example of using a shotgun, that is why I left that comment til the end of my post. That is also why I put a /s at the end of bullets. But I guess, an experienced gun user would not shoot a tree with a handgun, so you got me there.

You are right, however, I do not know a ton about guns, this is why I want you to enlighten me. I do know the basics though.
 
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  • #13
mattmns said:
Well I meant reasons other than the obvious (target practice, hunting). And yes I know, what is the use of a football, well to play football. See but footballs are not used to kill people. Hunting I can understand, you like to hunt, its a sport. This should limit hunters to only buying rifles, or guns that are strictly for sport, I guess shotguns if you hunt ducks. The question is can an alternative ammo be used that will not injure humans, but will still hurt/incapacitate/kill your game? Also the same goes for target practice. Do you really need to use steel, or whatever bullets are made out of, for ammo? Could you use an ammo that would not kill humans, but would still work for target pracitce?

Footballs are not used to kill people. This is true. But knives are. Are you going to ban them too? What about air nailers? Doesn't take a lot to hook up an air nailer to a small CO2 cartridge with a regulator. And you can buy one without having to wait. Look at what is happening in Iraq. Look at the improvising that is done to obtain the weapons that insurgents are using and look at the success they are having with them.
 
  • #14
mattmns said:
You are right, however, I do not know a ton about guns, this is why I want you to enlighten me. I do know the basics though.

Yes it's obvious. One of the most basic rules of all is to know your target and what is behind it and that seems to have passed you by. Could I assume then that you think an individual who knows nothing about driving a car should be making laws regulating them and driving in general?
 
  • #15
Averagesupernova said:
Footballs are not used to kill people. This is true. But knives are. Are you going to ban them too? What about air nailers? Doesn't take a lot to hook up an air nailer to a small CO2 cartridge with a regulator. And you can buy one without having to wait. Look at what is happening in Iraq. Look at the improvising that is done to obtain the weapons that insurgents are using and look at the success they are having with them.
Anything can be used to kill people. Knives should not be banned because people use knives for practical reasons; such as, to open a box, cut up celery, etc. For air nailers, that takes knowledge, which most people probably do not have (I am probably wrong about this right?). That would be like saying: Are you going to ban metal, because metal can be used to make a gun which in turn can kill people? Guns are designed and made to kill/destroy things, that is the problem. I do not have any problem with Iraqis improvising weapons, I would probably do the same. You can not stop people from improvising, or creating weapons.
 
  • #16
Averagesupernova said:
Yes it's obvious. One of the most basic rules of all is to know your target and what is behind it and that seems to have passed you by. Could I assume then that you think an individual who knows nothing about driving a car should be making laws regulating them and driving in general?
The problem is this. How close were you to the tree? From the sound of it you shot from a few feet at least. If you shot it from a very close range, then why did you shoot it at all? Why not just cut it down? I always thought shotguns were used for close ranger, not sure how close though, please enlighten me on this. Also, how can you be so sure of what was behind your target? Did you project the trajectory of the pellets? Do pellets work in a special way? What would have happened if you had slipped or something like that while you were firing the gun?

edit... yes I know, what would happen if you slipped with a saw: What I meant was with the pellets and not if they hit you or not.

Also, do you live in a secluded area or something. Is this why you knew your trajectory would not hurt anyone?
 
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  • #17
mattmns said:
The problem is this. How close were you to the tree? From the sound of it you shot from a few feet at least. If you shot it from a very close range, then why did you shoot it at all? Why not just cut it down? I always thought shotguns were used for close ranger, not sure how close though, please enlighten me on this. Also, how can you be so sure of what was behind your target? Did you project the trajectory of the pellets? Do pellets work in a special way? What would have happened if you had slipped or something like that while you were firing the gun?

edit... yes I know, what would happen if you slipped with a saw: What I meant was with the pellets and not if they hit you or not.

Also, do you live in a secluded area or something. Is this why you knew your trajectory would not hurt anyone?

:rolleyes:

At least a few feet? Remember, too high to safely reach.

What would happen if I slipped? More gun safety rules you obviously have not ever heard of.

Do you realize that there is probably more damage you can do driving down the highway at 60 Mph if you 'slip' compared to shooting a gun? When you consider the number of hours spent driving compared to shooting it is MUCH more likely.

How did I know what was behind the target? Well for one thing it was probably about a 65 degree angle to the ground so it was shooting in the air. I own the property for half a mile in the direction of shooting.
 
  • #18
mattmns said:
Anything can be used to kill people. Knives should not be banned because people use knives for practical reasons; such as, to open a box, cut up celery, etc. For air nailers, that takes knowledge, which most people probably do not have (I am probably wrong about this right?). That would be like saying: Are you going to ban metal, because metal can be used to make a gun which in turn can kill people? Guns are designed and made to kill/destroy things, that is the problem. I do not have any problem with Iraqis improvising weapons, I would probably do the same. You can not stop people from improvising, or creating weapons.

We know why you shouldn't be allowed to own or be near anything that might function as a weapon --- now, tell the rest of us why we with less murderous natures should not be allowed ownership of firearms for whatever peaceful purposes we choose.
 
  • #19
Averagesupernova said:
Obviously a skewed view of the U.S.

Well your posts have definitely cleared things up for me. I hadn't realized the most important use of guns: chopping trees...
That's a really good argument for everyone to by a couple of guns...
 
  • #20
Well your posts have definitely cleared things up for me. I hadn't realized the most important use of guns: chopping trees...

It's just for us on the other side of the lake so very difficult to understand the integral part guns have in US society ... the problem as has been pointed out is how to get the situation under control in the US (well, no one else actually has the problem in close to similar magnitude), since by any measure it nowadays isn't, and as good of a case can be made to tighten gun control, it never ceases to surprise me how those efforts are blocked (and usually with arguments having 'freedom' in them ... ).
 
  • #21
PerennialII said:
it never ceases to surprise me how those efforts are blocked (and usually with arguments having 'freedom' in them ... ).

I think the main problem is: FEAR.
America is obviously built on fear (why else would there be screens above the high-ways saying "Report suspicious behavior to...", how else could they have chosen mr Bush...why else do they need hand guns...and how else could they "find" WMD in Iraq...well this can be made so much longer I better stop here...)
 
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  • #22
I think the main problem is: FEAR.

Yeah, I'd be willing to say fundamentally it's the greatest problem and, in my mind, weakness underlying in the constructs of the American society (actually applies to the west as a whole quite a bit, but the US is a clear leader in this respect).
 
  • #23
A person's first responsibility is himself.

Therefore, he needs to be able to defend himself.

Wait until someone breaks into your house, with a gun. If you don't own one, you'll feel pretty vulnerable. Sure, you can call the cops, but you have to rely on someone else to save your life at that point. By the time they get to where you are you could be dead.

Criminals fear most the target that can fight back, especially the one with a concealed gun. There have been a large number of instances of deterred rapes, thefts, robberies, etc. that go unreported because the victim sucessfully scared the person away.

Whoever used Washington DC as an example obviously hasn't seen that it is the most murderous "state" in the nation, with law-abiding citizens unable to defend themselves equally to what they are up against.

Without guns, the U.S. wouldn't even be around because defending yourself from someone else in modern times can be very difficult without one.

Also, I know of plenty of examples where guns were taken away from a populace only to have that populace suddenly represeed and or killed by the government. Sound familiar to anyone?
 
  • #24
Averagesupernova said:
Footballs are not used to kill people. This is true. But knives are. Are you going to ban them too?
This argument is a straw-man. It misses the point. Guns are a tool: they are a tool designed for killing things and they are highly effective at it. Had the kids at Columbine only had access to knives, how many people would they have succeeded in killing? Could Oswald have hit Kennedy with a knife from 300 yards? If gun control laws had been just a tiny bit weaker and the Columbine kids had succeeded in acquiring the .50 cal machine gun they had their eye on, how many people would they have succeeded in killing?

My view on guns is this:

-Home defense is important. For this, the ideal weapon is a pump-action shotgun: short range, high power, easy to aim, and you can use it as a club if you need to.
-Hunting is a reasonable use: hunting rifles are ok (even semi-auto).
-Handguns are not ok for civilians - expecially not concealed. The usual case study of "what if you were mugged and you had a gun..." doesn't have the outcome most people think: if you are mugged by someone with a gun and try to pull yours, odds are pretty good, you'll be dead.
-Guns, being what they are, require heavy safety regulation. Currently, they are about the least regulated of any consumer product. Many are designed in such a way as to make them easy to modify for nefarious purposes. We require licensing before people are allowed to operate a common tool that if used properly is perfectly safe: there is no reason not to require it for a tool that even if used correctly, results in a death.

Re, the 2nd Amendment: Its horribly, horribly written, perhaps on purpose. My interpretation is "a well regulated militia" is the National Guard, the modern incarnation of the militias that really were just farmers with personal guns. "The right to bear arms," is far from absolute, and needs to be heavily restricted.
 
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  • #25
I can do more damage with my car than I could do with any small arm (rifle, pistol, shotgun, even fully automatic).

I can buy as much potentially explosive equipment as I want, without any safety regulations (gasoline, fertilizer, chlorine, name it). I can think of all sorts of interesting ways to kill people, but I don't do it because it's wrong.

The biggest violent tragedy to strike the US today happened with box cutting knives. We need constant reminders that YOUR LIFE is YOUR LIFE. If someone tries to take it from you, DEFEND YOURSELF before relying on others, because if you forego the former, you could already be dead.

Handguns are necessary and useful. If just a couple of teachers in columbine had handguns, what happened could not have unfolded the way it did.

Why is a shotgun an ideal weapon when typical shotguns have a spread pattern? Wouldn't a safer weapon have a tight group so that you can accurately hit exactly what you are aiming at?

Right now, North Koreans citizens sure could use some form of weaponry more sophisticated than their military. 50 years ago, the oppressed in Russia could have used more sophisticated weapons than their military, especially the samizdat publishers and gulag prisoners. 6 million jews could have used some form of concealed weaponry to spring on their own government.

If handguns and concealed carry are banned, watch out in dark alleys. Every single criminal out there will know you are unarmed. Ever seen reports of the extreme violence in England because citizens aren't allowed to carry weapons to defend themselves?
 
  • #26
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
-- Thomas Jefferson Papers
 
  • #27
aeroegnr said:
Handguns are necessary and useful. If just a couple of teachers in columbine had handguns, what happened could not have unfolded the way it did.

Are you serious you want to send your kids to a school where the teachers are wearing guns?
 
  • #28
aeroegnr said:
I can do more damage with my car than I could do with any small arm (rifle, pistol, shotgun, even fully automatic).
Certainly, but only if you use it incorrectly.
I can buy as much potentially explosive equipment as I want, without any safety regulations (gasoline, fertilizer, chlorine, name it). I can think of all sorts of interesting ways to kill people,
Certainly, but again, only if you use these things in ways that were not intended.
Why is a shotgun an ideal weapon when typical shotguns have a spread pattern? Wouldn't a safer weapon have a tight group so that you can accurately hit exactly what you are aiming at?
The spread pattern makes it easier to hit what you are aiming at. The same goes for the fact that its large and has a stock - I don't know if you're a shooter, but for an unskilled shooter, a handgun is extremely difficult to aim. Shotguns also have "stopping power."
Right now, North Koreans citizens sure could use some form of weaponry more sophisticated than their military.
Whoa now - "more sophisticated than their military"? You're suggesting civilians should be allowed to own machine guns, tanks, and rocket launchers?
If handguns and concealed carry are banned, watch out in dark alleys. Every single criminal out there will know you are unarmed. Ever seen reports of the extreme violence in England because citizens aren't allowed to carry weapons to defend themselves?
If you check England's murder rate, you'll find it does not support your assertion.
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Said in 1795 or thereabouts, when the most powerful/sophisticated weapons that existed were a muzzle-loaded bal-shot musket and a cannon. Clearly, this provision of the 2nd amendment (and the general principle being discussed here of defense against your government) is long obsolete.
 
  • #29
EL said:
Well your posts have definitely cleared things up for me. I hadn't realized the most important use of guns: chopping trees...
That's a really good argument for everyone to by a couple of guns...

I gave it as an example which is what the poster asked. I'm not the one who picked it apart. Your smart a$$ attitude is not helping your cause.
 
  • #30
I don't want to "send" my kids to school anyway, but that's irrelevant.

Yeah, I would prefer to have my kids in a school where somebody could do something if the school was being taken over. In some places STUDENTS can bring GUNS to school (rifle clubs).


russ_watters said:
Certainly, but only if you use it incorrectly. Certainly, but again, only if you use these things in ways that were not intended. The spread pattern makes it easier to hit what you are aiming at. The same goes for the fact that its large and has a stock - I don't know if you're a shooter, but for an unskilled shooter, a handgun is extremely difficult to aim. Shotguns also have "stopping power."
I'm not suggesting everyone will be able to go buy a handgun and shoot burglars in the head with 100% accuracy, but that's what shooting ranges are for. If you can't aim a pistol, stay away from them. I've shot them before and didn't find them particularly difficult.



Whoa now - "more sophisticated than their military"? You're suggesting civilians should be allowed to own machine guns, tanks, and rocket launchers? If you check England's murder rate, you'll find it does not support your assertion. Said in 1795 or thereabouts, when the most powerful/sophisticated weapons that existed were a muzzle-loaded bal-shot musket and a cannon. Clearly, this provision of the 2nd amendment (and the general principle being discussed here of defense against your government) is long obsolete.

Sure. A few tanks and assualt weapons in the right civilian hands in North Korea could change the country into something better almost immediately. Or do you want the defenseless starving civilians to keep dying?


Jean Francois Revel said:
Nevertheless, apart from its Soviet-supplied nuclear and missile technologies, North Korea is one of the weakest nations in the world. It is economically moribund, devastated by the collectivist scourge. Experts estimate that from one to two million people have died of starvation since 1990, out of a population of twenty-two million. Flocks of orphaned children search amid the refuse for scraps of food. In one decade, life expectancy declined by six years. And this while the country was receiving generous aid: by May of 2001, Washington had delivered 100,000 metric tons of food and the E.U. had spent 200 million euros on relief. But again we see what little likelihood there is of aid actualy getting to populations in need. There is every reason to think that these donations have served instead to boost the regime's military arsenal: in 1994, at the height of the famine, North Korea purchased forty submarines from Russia.

The military is so ridiculously powerful compared to the ordinary citizen that nothing is going to happen until weapons of war are captured for a revolt, or a country declares war on North Korea.
 
  • #31
Averagesupernova said:
I gave it as an example which is what the poster asked. I'm not the one who picked it apart. Your smart a$$ attitude is not helping your cause.

So give me a better example then...or even harder...try to give me a good example not based on "fear".
 
  • #32
aeroegnr said:
I don't want to "send" my kids to school anyway, but that's irrelevant.
Yes. Think you got what I ment anyway.

Yeah, I would prefer to have my kids in a school where somebody could do something if the school was being taken over. In some places STUDENTS can bring GUNS to school (rifle clubs).

Ok, I would be a lot more frightened by the thought of that guns ending up in some kids hands...
 
  • #33
The utility of gun ownership benefits society even when the gun is not being held or even fired. In fact, the utility of gun ownership benefits society even when a particular household does not in fact contain a gun owner, but merely might. When one imagines a society that loses its mind and posts huge signs in every neighborhood ("THIS NEIGHBORHOOD IS GUARANTEED NOT BE ARMED OR YOUR MONEY BACK"), the 'utility' of mere possible/not actual gun ownership is apparent.

Nobody here is mistaking a government ban on firearms with an actual firearm free society, just as nobody here would mistake a goivernment ban on drugs with a drug free society. So, the conclusion as to who would be armed/registered, and who would not be armed/registered, in all of these goofy 'we need more gun control in the Nerf World' debates, is apparent.

The firearms that may or may not be in my possession have been successfully 'used' 24/7/365.

My car, on the other hand, gets used much less often, and serves no utility at all to society when parked in my garage. In fact, it's utility to society is mere convenience, unless you count those among us who use their cars to deliver much needed human organs across town for transplants. In fact, 100% of us when actually 'using' our cars are more aptly described as increasing the odds that organ doners will be created. The actual deployment of a few million ft-lbfs of destructive energy in the name of getting home from the gym in time to watch Felicity will do that.


Ask yourself this question(again): Before a perfect stragner is permitted to actually deploy a million ft-lbfs of destructive energy, and aim it at a target mere feet from me and my loved ones, shouldn't society even have to ask what the reason is for actually deploying the event?

Running a human heart across town to the transplant operation?

On a jaunt across town for the really, really good Italian Ice?

Heading out to the quarry to blast some rocks with your merely few hundred ft-lbf capable little popgun?

Conveniently living 20 miles from my non-defense rated job at The Gap as a matter of choice, because I didn't want to work on the farm?

Driving to the gym--for my workout?

Forget mere 'bazookas'; 17 year old girls and boys regularly head on out to the highway actually deploying(not, owning)the destructive energy equivalent of 5000 .45 caliber 230g 'cop killer' bullets, fired continuously, and aimed at targets mere feet and sometimes inches from each other.

All of that, for as long and as far as their pre-ban 20 gallon gas tanks will let them.

500+ such kids killed every month due to the 'usage' of DUI; teen drug dealers killing other teen drug dealers over drug turf wars, and counted as 'children' don't even come close to that kind of carnage.
 
  • #34
russ_watters said:
Re, the 2nd Amendment: Its horribly, horribly written, perhaps on purpose. My interpretation is "a well regulated militia" is the National Guard, the modern incarnation of the militias that really were just farmers with personal guns. "The right to bear arms," is far from absolute, and needs to be heavily restricted.

In the context of the times the amendment was written, the 'Regulars' were trained, professional soldiers.

Why the use of that word 'regular' to refer to trained, professional soldiers, who were distinguished from plain militia by the fact that they were 'regulars?' Why the use of that same word to refer to militia in the 2nd Amendment?

The reason was not just applicable to colonial times; the reason was cited as a factor in America's ability to mobilize for WWII. The ability to quickly train just plain folks and turn them into Regulars when the security of a free nation requires it is enhanced when just plain folks show up already familiar with arms, ie, well regulated militia, as opposed to regulars, which well regulated militia might become upon professional military training in service to the nation.

Therefore, a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Since the Articles already grant power to the federal government to federalize the militia when needed, and notwithstanding Massachusetts and Connecticuts once polite refusal(War of 1812)to federalize their militia, to believe that the 2nd Amendment applied to collective arming of militia only would be tantamount to claiming that 10% of the Bill of Rights was dedicated to forbidding the government from infringing the right to arm itself.

ie, an absurdity in the context of a 'constitution.'

The leading dependent clause is simply an enumeration of a benefit to the security of a free state which follows from not infringing a pre-existing right of the people. It is, in a sense, a justification to the gun grabbers of the day for why it is not a good thing to wax totalitarian.

Lets acknowledge that neither the 1st Amendment nor 2nd AMendment is absolute; just as we do not have the right to run into a theatre and scream 'FIRE,' nor do we have the right to run into a theatre and 'FIRE.' Well, no ****. But, does pointing out that not even the NRA advocates that we should have a right to run into a theatre and 'FIRE' support a claim that citizens should have half of their vocal cords removed, because anyone of us might run into a theatre and yell 'FIRE?'

After all, we can understand each other perfectly well when we whisper to each other, and there is always the state licensed bullhorns that only the police and fire department trained operators should have, in case of a societal emergency.
 
  • #35
Zlex said:
The utility of gun ownership benefits society even when the gun is not being held or even fired. In fact, the utility of gun ownership benefits society even when a particular household does not in fact contain a gun owner, but merely might. When one imagines a society that loses its mind and posts huge signs in every neighborhood ("THIS NEIGHBORHOOD IS GUARANTEED NOT BE ARMED OR YOUR MONEY BACK"), the 'utility' of mere possible/not actual gun ownership is apparent.
Now that is not to bad of a point, and I actually believe it. You pro gun people keep talking about these people who will kill you in dark alleys and stuff, personally I find all that bogus. I live in the worst part of my town (about 1mill pop.) and I have never had a gun pointed at me, well in a serious matter at least. This made me realize that you guys either live in crime-ridden towns, or are making these examples up to scare us, probably the latter (not to say that such a thing does not exist, or has never happened). Now Zlex has made a considerably good argument, in my case at least. Right now I think that the US is quite safe, or at least it is in my eyes. If we were to change the gun control laws it could affect, negatively, the balance. So, I would, if I could, change my vote to Current gun laws are fine.

Back to the shotgun tree example. Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought shotguns usually dispersed the pellets in a cone, or circle, pattern. This is why I thought you were close to the tree.

mattmns said:
I do not have any problem with Iraqis improvising weapons, I would probably do the same. You can not stop people from improvising, or creating weapons.

Bystander said:
We know why you shouldn't be allowed to own or be near anything that might function as a weapon --- now, tell the rest of us why we with less murderous natures should not be allowed ownership of firearms for whatever peaceful purposes we choose.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. What I mean is that if I were an Iraqi and I had Americans shooting at me, then I too, would probably improvise and either make a weapon or find one. And I would like to think you would do the same.

Murderous nature? Where did you get this from? I do not own a gun, or any official weapons(yes I have knives, but they are used to butter my pancakes, or cut steak), and I have no desire to kill people. Not sure where you are getting this from, but I guess if you need to flame people to make your point, then good job!
 
  • #36
selfAdjoint said:
My platform:

1. Close the loophole, have a national database of gun transactions that is kept up to date. Justification: "Well regulated militia".

2. Concealed carry. Justification; "Right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
Honestly, I'm fine with both of those.
 
  • #37
mattmns said:
(snip)Murderous nature? Where did you get this from?

Your original statement: "Guns are designed and made to kill/destroy things, that is the problem." My inference from this statement is that it is your nature to use firearms to kill/destroy --- therefore, I really don't want to see you anywhere near such devices. Also implicit in this statement is your assessment of people who do own firearms --- little something the cranium crackers call "projection, transference," whatever else, denoting the human tendency to see themselves in others --- hence, my use of the word murderous. Not intended as a flame --- a barb, perhaps, suggesting that you might consider the possibility that there really are other uses and intents driving firearms ownership --- appreciation of art, craftsmanship, and such in my case (trash is trash, Glock is glock, and a Colt Python is a beautiful piece of machinery --- getting it tuned and maintained to punch holes in paper where it is aimed is not a trivial exercise).
I do not own a gun, or any official weapons(yes I have knives, but they are used to butter my pancakes, or cut steak), and I have no desire to kill people.

Nor a desire to "live and let live," I take it --- you stay away from my Python, and I'll stay away from your butterknife. Household defense? Uh-uh --- this house is protected by Louisville Slugger and SK Tools --- don't plan on ever playing the piano again.

Not sure where you are getting this from, but I guess if you need to flame people to make your point, then good job!
 
  • #38
Where are all the aussies when you need them ? Since the 90s, Australia has enforced very tight gun control laws, that met with a lot of opposition initially. What's the feeling now ?
 
  • #39
All of you need to realize that I have no problem with responsible gun users. The problem is that there are a ton of irresponsible gun users.

Bystander said:
Your original statement: "Guns are designed and made to kill/destroy things, that is the problem." My inference from this statement is that it is your nature to use firearms to kill/destroy --- therefore, I really don't want to see you anywhere near such devices. Also implicit in this statement is your assessment of people who do own firearms --- little something the cranium crackers call "projection, transference," whatever else, denoting the human tendency to see themselves in others --- hence, my use of the word murderous. Not intended as a flame --- a barb, perhaps, suggesting that you might consider the possibility that there really are other uses and intents driving firearms ownership --- appreciation of art, craftsmanship, and such in my case (trash is trash, Glock is glock, and a Colt Python is a beautiful piece of machinery --- getting it tuned and maintained to punch holes in paper where it is aimed is not a trivial exercise).

Thank you for clearing that up.

Yes many guns look beautiful, if you collect guns for their beauty that is perfectly fine (or a collector for any other reason). I do not have a problem with gun collectors, hunters, people who target practice, etc. Like I said: I do not have any problem with people who use guns responsibly. I do, however, have a problem with people who carry a gun only to inflict harm on another human being.
 
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  • #40
mattmns said:
All of you need to realize that I have no problem with responsible gun users. The problem is that there are a ton of irresponsible gun users.(snip)

How many bad apples? 10,000? 100,000? Took 15 yrs. to stir-fry Ted Bundy; Charles Manson's still dining on the taxpayers' dimes; Scott P. will be a ward of the state for years; T. Kaczynski (sp? I ain't going to check it now) is mentally incompetent to be tried; our little friend in Texas Wednesday had how many years of jailtime accumulated but not served; and on, and on ... The question being, what is accomplished by interfering with 50M gun owners current rights without taking some steps toward dispostion of the bad apples? Revenue enhancement? Seems to be the ultimate goal of every bit of legislation directed toward solution of social problems these days. What's easier (read "easier" for more profitable in terms of revenues to be misspent)? Round up 50-100k bad apples for a stir-fry, or make a grab at 50M gun owners wallets for registration and administrative fees?

Plea bargains, sealed records, insanity pleas, juvenile court jurisdiction (no permanent record) for major crimes, time off for good behavior, parole, and the whole ABA keep 'em on the street stirring things up for ABA revenues thing might be of a tad more concern to people genuinely disturbed with the quality of life and public safety than the activities of the 50M.
 
  • #41
There's no conclusive evidence that death penalties are cheaper than life terms. Actually, I've only seen reports providing statistics that argue the reverse.

"Elimination of the death penalty would result in a net savings to the state of at least several tens of millions of dollars annually, and a net savings to local governments in the millions to tens of millions of dollars on a statewide basis." –Joint Legislative Budget Committee of the California Legislature, Sept. 9, 1999

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/MassCostTestimony.pdf

But this is not really germane to the present discussion. I apologize for the digression.
 
  • #42
current gun laws are way to harsh...
if you read jefferson's memoirs he implies(to me anyway) that the people need to be armed in the same ways the government is armed. This makes his every few decade revolution possible. IMO the gun laws, even in place, are un-constitutional. there is no choice in the poll for me

my preffered choice would be... "the current gun laws are unconstitutional"
 
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  • #43
What do you mean you don't know why people want to carry CCW? It is obvious that you do not educate yourself as you should. Just get up and turn on the news once in a while or read the papers or, or , or ? You must have meant "you could not understand why people would not want to carry a gun" legally of course!. It is not like it used to be, times have changed. Folks need to change with them unfortunately if they want to survive.

Bart
 
  • #44
In our county, we are all pro-gun. The Sheriff encourages its law abiding citizens to "pack heat". They even train the applicants with their own coarse adminitered by Deputies as the "Range Masters". We don't have any, (or so very little that it does not register) major problems involving guns or violent crimes because a lot of us have CCW permits. That enables us to protect ourselves without having to depned on the police to get there first. The police almost always get there just in time to fill out a report for investigation. Very seldom do they get there in time to stop the agressor or criminal before someone is hurt or killed. This is true everywhere. Even most ignorant folks know this but obviously, not all of them know this yet. Just read some of the statements being made and you will see what I mean. Yep, the dumb ass that tries to rob and/or harm most of those in our community is going to get a BIG surprise. In most cases, about 230 grains worth. It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it, right? No one wants to have to use it, most of all me. But we will not allow the criminal element to take advantage of our citizens either. And we have the hardware and training to stop them.
 
  • #45
With this corrupted, fascist government in power, every truly patriotic American needs guns more than ever,just in case.
 
  • #46
russ_watters said:
This argument is a straw-man. It misses the point. Guns are a tool: they are a tool designed for killing things and they are highly effective at it. Had the kids at Columbine only had access to knives, how many people would they have succeeded in killing? Could Oswald have hit Kennedy with a knife from 300 yards? If gun control laws had been just a tiny bit weaker and the Columbine kids had succeeded in acquiring the .50 cal machine gun they had their eye on, how many people would they have succeeded in killing?

My view on guns is this:

-Home defense is important. For this, the ideal weapon is a pump-action shotgun: short range, high power, easy to aim, and you can use it as a club if you need to.
-Hunting is a reasonable use: hunting rifles are ok (even semi-auto).
-Handguns are not ok for civilians - expecially not concealed. The usual case study of "what if you were mugged and you had a gun..." doesn't have the outcome most people think: if you are mugged by someone with a gun and try to pull yours, odds are pretty good, you'll be dead.
-Guns, being what they are, require heavy safety regulation. Currently, they are about the least regulated of any consumer product. Many are designed in such a way as to make them easy to modify for nefarious purposes. We require licensing before people are allowed to operate a common tool that if used properly is perfectly safe: there is no reason not to require it for a tool that even if used correctly, results in a death.

Re, the 2nd Amendment: Its horribly, horribly written, perhaps on purpose. My interpretation is "a well regulated militia" is the National Guard, the modern incarnation of the militias that really were just farmers with personal guns. "The right to bear arms," is far from absolute, and needs to be heavily restricted.

This is precisely my view on gun control as well (with the possible exception of home defense)! I have no problem with guns owned for hunting (shotguns or rifles), but find concealed carry laws disturbing.

I also find that the argument that criminals have handguns so we need them too to be weak. The reason it is weak is that laws prohibiting ownership of handguns gets them out of the hands of criminals in two ways: 1) they can't legally buy them, 2) homes won't have them for them to illegally obtain through theft. The average law-abiding citizen who wants to own a gun for "protection" is also going to be more likely to hesitate to pull the trigger than the criminal is. End result, one dead citizen, one live criminal. If I hear someone breaking into my house, I'm heading out the back door or a window, let them take the jewelry and TV, it's not worth my life.

I especially emphasize the need for training to go along with licensing. In days past, fathers passed down to sons this training when they would go out hunting (yes, that sounds sexist, but it is more or less how things were done). Somewhere this broke down. I know when I was a kid, my dad was an avid hunter (bow, rifle, and shotgun), and eventually, he gave up because there started to be too many idiots out who didn't care what (or who) they shot at, and it got too unsafe to be out in the woods with them. To own something with such a deadly function, spending a few weekends going through a safety training class and skill test seems a small expectation to obain a license. I would further recommend that if the gun is to be stored in the home, every person in that home be given gun safety training, not just the one person planning on going hunting with them.
 
  • #47
I wish we would go back to banning some guns because my collections of pre ban wepons has lossed value. But I have a ton of fun going to the range a shooting my guns. Concealed carry is a safe way for me to go back a forth from the range and the gun shop ect. without having to leave my guns out in the open on my car seat for all to see I think this could prove too tempting for some to break into my car or some stupid thing. This way no one has to know that I have a gun but me.
 
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  • #48
ptex said:
I wish we would go back to banning some guns because my collections of pre ban wepons has lossed value. But I have a ton of fun going to the range a shooting my guns. Concealed carry is a safe way for me to go back a forth from the range and the gun shop ect. without having to leave my guns out in the open on my car seat for all to see I think this could prove too tempting for some to break into my car or some stupid thing. This way no one has to know that I have a gun but me.

If they were banned altogether or you stored them at the range, this wouldn't be an issue. However, I admit this isn't something I had considered with respect to concealed carry laws. I thought concealed carry referred to carrying it on your person. Is a locked box in your trunk still considered concealed carry? I work on a medical school campus, so the restrictions that apply to both a university and to hospitals apply to us in terms of not being allowed to carry concealed weapons (when they passed the law allowing concealed weapons here, which was only this past year, it was rather disturbing suddenly seeing the no firearms signs appearing all over entrances to buildings). The rules, as were distributed on campus, are that if someone has a weapon, they must leave it in a locked box in their car or not carry it onto campus at all. So, I assumed a locked box was an exception to what is considered concealed carry. Is that not the case, or not the case everywhere?

I wouldn't have a problem with people keeping a handgun stored in the equivalent of a safety deposit box in a secured vault of a shooting range for the purpose of target practice. To me, if your only use is to participate in a bit of sport shooting targets, that's fine, as long as the guns never go anywhere where they are intended for use against another person, and are not removed from a secured facility where they could accidentally (or intentionally) get into the hands of either a child or a criminal.
 
  • #49
I bought a gun this year-- 30-06 w/ scope. Makes me very happy just to hold it & slide the bolt up & down, and I can see Jupiter's moons throught the scope. Generally, guns are poorly regulated but I really don't care. Handguns are just as protected by the Constitution as rifles & shotguns. You have to draw the line somewhere though-- people should probably not be allowed to have their own JDAMS. Yet the self-defence argument-- that guns should only be kept and beared for protection & hunting-- does not hold up constitutionally. Virtually anybody with a lathe and a few other machining tools can modify a semi-auto bushmaster to be a full-auto silenced SMG. As this hypothetical illegal gun would be illegal, it would not be noted or regulated would it?
However, the counter argument to legal full-auto assault weapons is obvious: those devices will inevitably fall into the hands of those who will use them. They'll get stolen and terrorist cells within the US will wipe out a shopping mall. Do the benefits of free armamants outwiegh the costs and risks? Can we protect our national interests from foreign invaders or internal coup without liberalized gun laws? With the regular military weakened and overextended ovseas, it is a compelling argument that citizens ought to fill the national security void and gun laws should be somewhat liberalized.
 
  • #50
From the perspective of someone who tries (but usually fails) to express precisely what he means, I find the US second amendment to be poorly constructed:

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed..

Why put in the first clause at all? Is the "Militia" separate from "the people"? Does the right to bear arms apply to people who form a well regulated militia, or to people in general? If the latter, then why include the first clause at all?

Madison's original version of the second amendment went something like this:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well-armed and well-regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

This is even worse. Congress changed Madison's original version, and swapped the order of the "militia" clause and "right to bear arms" clause. I have no idea why they did that.

Another thing that confuses me is that the second amendment is not binding on the states, or in other words, the fourteenth amendment doesn't apply to it. So states can (and do) make any gun laws they like. There are cities and towns which have banned guns altogether.
 

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