Schiavo Autopsy Shows Massive Brain Damage

[Evo]

The parents insisted an autopsy be performed on their daughter and the results show that the husband was right all along.

Even with the results showing she was blind and in a permanent vegetative state with no chance to improve, her parents remain in denial of the truth.

"An autopsy on Terri Schiavo, the severely brain damaged woman whose death sparked an intense debate over a person's right-to-die, showed that her brain was severely "atrophied," weighed less than half of what it should have, and that no treatment could have reversed the damage."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/national/15cnd-schiavo.html

 

[dduardo]

Not to be cynical but who cares anymore? The media had no right in the first place to milk this story. There are plenty of people starving in this world that need more attention.

 

[Evo]

It has to do with the "right to die" as you wish. The parents wanted media attention to try to block their son in law from taking their daughter off life support.

 

[whozum]

He's saying there are bigger problems going on. I agree.

 

[Evo]

He's saying there are bigger problems going on. I agree.

Of course there are bigger problems. This is still a problem, and one that worries me. I don't want to be stuck on life support against my wishes and I don't want my children to bear that burden.

The parents and their attorney say they aren't dropping this and the President says he hasn't changed his mind on the case.

 

[hypatia]

I hope he shows a degree of tact, and dosen't put the autopsy photos into public hands.

 

[JamesU]

How was the husband right?

and could they determine if she felt any pain?

 

[dduardo]

Just from a practical standpoint, couldn't the doctors have done a some type of brain scan to determine the weight of the brain while she was living? If the doctors could of been able to say that her brain was the size of peanut wouldn't that have saved a lot of time and money?

 

[Evo]

How was the husband right?

and could they determine if she felt any pain?

He said that she was in a persistent vegetative state, most of her brain was gone, so she would not have felt pain.

 

[Evo]

Just from a practical standpoint, couldn't the doctors have done a some type of brain scan to determine the weight of the brain while she was living? If the doctors could of been able to say that her brain was the size of peanut wouldn't that saved a lot of time and money?

They did, and experts testified that her brain had shriveled up. That's the problem, the religious/political faction refused to accept what was undeniable in the brain scans.

I want the right to not be kept alive by artificial means. This case cost the public a fortune in medical care.

 

[theCandyman]

If the parents wanted to keep her alive, they should have. You can not revive someone, and this serious brain damage shows that Terry Schiavo probably would not care if she was or was not kept alive.

She did not seem blind to me. The clips on the news kept showing her looking at things people would dangle over her head.

I agree with dduardo's first statement though.

Edit: How is food "artifical means", Evo? Is feeding a baby artifically keeping it alive?

 

[whozum]

I want the right to not be kept alive by artificial means. This case cost the public a fortune in medical care.

I really don't see why this is even controversial. Keeping someone alive against their will? What the hell is the argument for this?

edit: critical mistake

 

[dduardo]

"This case cost the public a fortune in medical care."

I'm sure the hospital wasn't complaining.

"She did not seem blind to me."

Again, simply shining a light in her eyes would have been sufficient to determine if she was blind or not.

I agree with Evo that there was too much religious/polital influence. Maybe we need a law specifically defining what a vegetative state is and not allow life support after a certain threshold

 

[Evo]

Edit: How is food "artifical means", Evo? Is feeding a baby artifically keeping it alive?

The autopsy revealed that she would not have been able to eat if she was fed, as the parent's claimed. She was "fed" through a tube, that's artificial.

 

[FredGarvin]

She did not seem blind to me. The clips on the news kept showing her looking at things people would dangle over her head.

The autopsy showed conclusively that the portion of the brain responsible for sight was atrophied so badly that there was no way she could see.

"Seemed to me..." is a replacement for countless number of doctors telling them that it's not true and that things will not improve?

 

[Danger]

This just reinforces my original opinion that her brain-death was hereditary. As for Bush...

 

[2CentsWorth]

Of course there are bigger problems. This is still a problem, and one that worries me. I don't want to be stuck on life support against my wishes and I don't want my children to bear that burden.

The parents and their attorney say they aren't dropping this and the President says he hasn't changed his mind on the case.

He said that she was in a persistent vegetative state, most of her brain was gone, so she would not have felt pain.

They did, and experts testified that her brain had shriveled up. That's the problem, the religious/political faction refused to accept what was undeniable in the brain scans.

I want the right to not be kept alive by artificial means. This case cost the public a fortune in medical care.

The point is -- now that the autopsy has proven beyond doubt that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state, why does this remain controversial even in this thread? The question remains that people still aren't accepting the facts, and are still arguing against proven findings. Until the religious/political factions who support government intervention stop this nonsense, I agree with Evo it is something to be worried about.

 

[SOS2008]

G'dangit*%!frickin'*@#! frackin' -- Let's just round up these people who are in deep denial, clinging to their delusional beliefs, and put them on feeding tubes - yeh!

 

[Arctic Fox]

It's interesting to note that in this case the government didn't try to do something about it. But they feel the need to stick their noses into everything else.

I'm thinking of getting a tattoo on my upper left chest: D.N.R. But I bet that won't stop some wannabe hero putting their hands on me to try and save my life... I swear; if I die (or am anywhere near death) and someone brings me back - they're next!

 

[SOS2008]

It's interesting to note that in this case the government didn't try to do something about it. But they feel the need to stick their noses into everything else.

I'm thinking of getting a tattoo on my upper left chest: D.N.R. But I bet that won't stop some wannabe hero putting their hands on me to try and save my life... I swear; if I die (or am anywhere near death) and someone brings me back - they're next!

Here's something you can complete and keep with your important papers as well:

The Living Will

I, _________________________ (fill in blank), being of sound mind and body, do not wish to be kept alive indefinitely by artificial means. Under no circumstances should my fate be put in the hands of peckerwood ethically challenged politicians who couldn't pass ninth-grade biology if their lives depended on it.

If a reasonable amount of time passes and I fail to sit up and ask for a __________________ ( cold beer, Margarita, Bloody Mary, Martini, Rum & Coke, shot of Wild Turkey, or whatever) it should be presumed that I won't ever get better. When such a determination is reached, I hereby instruct my spouse, children and attending physicians to pull the plug, reel in the tubes, and call it a day.

Under no circumstances shall the hypocritical members of the Legislature (State or Federal) enact a special law to keep me on life-support machinery. It is my wish that these boneheads mind their own damn business, and pay attention instead to the health, education and future of the millions of Americans who aren't in a permanent coma. Under no circumstances shall any politicians butt into this case. I don't care how many fundamentalist votes they're trying to scrounge for their run for the presidency, it is my wish that they play politics with someone else's life and leave me alone to die in peace.

I couldn't care less if a hundred religious zealots send e-mails to legislators in which they pretend to care about me. I don't know them, and I certainly haven't authorized them to preach and crusade on my behalf. They should mind their own damn business.

If any of my family goes against my wishes and turns my case into a political cause, I hereby promise to come back from the grave and make his or her existence a living hell.

_____________________

Signature

DATE__________

 

[Arctic Fox]

ROTFLMFAO! OMFG, that's funny!

 

[Evo]

Here's something you can complete and keep with your important papers as well:

The Living Will

I, _________________________ (fill in blank), being of sound mind and body, do not wish to be kept alive indefinitely by artificial means. Under no circumstances should my fate be put in the hands of peckerwood ethically challenged politicians who couldn't pass ninth-grade biology if their lives depended on it.

If a reasonable amount of time passes and I fail to sit up and ask for a __________________ ( cold beer, Margarita, Bloody Mary, Martini, Rum & Coke, shot of Wild Turkey, or whatever) it should be presumed that I won't ever get better. When such a determination is reached, I hereby instruct my spouse, children and attending physicians to pull the plug, reel in the tubes, and call it a day.

Under no circumstances shall the hypocritical members of the Legislature (State or Federal) enact a special law to keep me on life-support machinery. It is my wish that these boneheads mind their own damn business, and pay attention instead to the health, education and future of the millions of Americans who aren't in a permanent coma. Under no circumstances shall any politicians butt into this case. I don't care how many fundamentalist votes they're trying to scrounge for their run for the presidency, it is my wish that they play politics with someone else's life and leave me alone to die in peace.

I couldn't care less if a hundred religious zealots send e-mails to legislators in which they pretend to care about me. I don't know them, and I certainly haven't authorized them to preach and crusade on my behalf. They should mind their own damn business.

If any of my family goes against my wishes and turns my case into a political cause, I hereby promise to come back from the grave and make his or her existence a living hell.

_____________________

Signature

DATE__________

OMG That hilarious! I'm signing it!

 

[whozum]

That was great, I'd use it.

 

[russ_watters]

I really don't see why this is even controversial. Keeping someone alive against their will? What the hell is the argument for this?

Hope. You have seen The Matrix, Reloaded, right (yes, more Matrix philosophy from Russ...)?

During the circus, my opinion of the parents bounced back and forth between pity and contempt, but now there is only pity. Most of the facts in the autopsy report have been known for years, so I didn't expect that to change their opinions. But what has changed is their daughter is now dead - but they still are considering futher legal action (against who, for what purpose, I don't know). If it wasn't evident before, it should be evident now that the parents need psychological help. I don't know what other family/friends they have, but clearly they don't have an emotional anchor - they need someone to force them to deal with reality because they are incapable of doing it for themselves. They won't ever get over this loss if they don't.

 

[whozum]

Hope. You have seen The Matrix, Reloaded, right (yes, more Matrix philosophy from Russ...)?

During the circus, my opinion of the parents bounced back and forth between pity and contempt, but now there is only pity. Most of the facts in the autopsy report have been known for years, so I didn't expect that to change their opinions. But what has changed is their daughter is now dead - but they still are considering futher legal action (against who, for what purpose, I don't know). If it wasn't evident before, it should be evident now that the parents need psychological help. I don't know what other family/friends they have, but clearly they don't have an emotional anchor - they need someone to force them to deal with reality because they are incapable of doing it for themselves. They won't ever get over this loss if they don't.

Maybe you misunderstood my question, hope? hope for what.. she claimed she didnt want to live? If it was in her will to do this, would there be any problem?

 

[JamesU]

politicians who couldn't pass ninth-grade biology if their lives depended on it.

whoo! I'm smarter than most politicians! which is obvious...

 

[Moonbear]

If it wasn't evident before, it should be evident now that the parents need psychological help. I don't know what other family/friends they have, but clearly they don't have an emotional anchor - they need someone to force them to deal with reality because they are incapable of doing it for themselves. They won't ever get over this loss if they don't.

I don't think anyone can convince them to get that help. They are so far lost in their delusions and inability to get past that "blame" stage of grief that I don't think anyone could get through to them to tell them otherwise. Really, they are delusional at this point. It doesn't matter what the evidence shows, they will continue to believe what they believe and will just insist the evidence is wrong when it disagrees with their beliefs. They may never come around from this, and even if they do, I doubt it will happen quickly.

 

[Galileo]

"An autopsy on Terri Schiavo, the severely brain damaged woman whose death sparked an intense debate over a person's right-to-die, showed that her brain was severely "atrophied," weighed less than half of what it should have, and that no treatment could have reversed the damage."

I don't have much knowledge in this area. Couldn't the brain damage be scanned or measured by a CAT or MRI scan?

 

[russ_watters]

Maybe you misunderstood my question, hope? hope for what.. she claimed she didnt want to live? If it was in her will to do this, would there be any problem?

Actually, there's a slight misunderstanding there that I should have addressed: Terri did not express a clear wish on the issue. However, the parents did say that that was irrelevant - they would have fought to keep her alive against her wishes had they been clear. (and actually, they were right in a way: it was irrelevant what they thought because it wasn't up to them, it was up to the husband to interpret her wishes.)

Either way, the point is the parents were hopeful that Terri would recover and that hope (c'mon - remember what "the architect" said in "Reloaded" about hope) was so strong it overcame logic and reason. Their hope is what continues to drive them to ignore reality. Its actually pretty apropos:

Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it...

Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion...

(yes, I did just watch this movie tonight)

I don't think anyone can convince them to get that help.

Probably not, but do they have anyone who is trying? Sometimes it takes a serious - physical - kick in the ass or slap in the face to get someone to listen when they have lost it. That can only come from a very close friend or relative. Too often in situations like that people think they need to be "supportive" and they go along with it just to make them feel better about their delusions. Its Crossing Over syndrome (that talk-to-the-dead show staring John Whatshisnuts). In the short term the hope makes them feel a little less bad, but they will never get over it.

 

[Pengwuino]

I want the right to not be kept alive by artificial means. This case cost the public a fortune in medical care.

Simple, living will.

If trheres absolutely anything to be learned from this media hoopla, its that you need a living will. Most people didnt know she didnt have a living will and it turned into a case of 2 sides sayen the woman said 2 different things. With a living will, unless God himself comes down and smites everyone down, no argument can be made as to what a persons wishes are for situations like that.

 

[Pengwuino]

Maybe you misunderstood my question, hope? hope for what.. she claimed she didnt want to live? If it was in her will to do this, would there be any problem?

Nope, like i said, there was a huge lie propogated by the "pro-death" side of this argument that stated that she had actaully said she wanted to be killed. There was absolutely no proof that she said anything and like i just said, a living will would have made all these lies and BS negligable sinec the problem would have been over the day she was put on (or taken off, depending on what the will would have said) the life support.

 

[russ_watters]

Oh, one more thing:

...contempt...

As usual, much of my contempt here goes to the lawyers for the family. They played the role of John Whatshisnutz here. Their case was utterly, utterly hopeless. So why pursue it? Well, the parents wanted to and, what the heck - it was profitable. In what other profession is that acceptable? Let's say some guy really, really wants a heart transplant. The doctor tells him he's pretty much guaranteed to die if he gets it, but the patient persists. Does the doctor give in and perform the surgery? No, he has an ethical responsibility not to. Ugh, lawyers.

 

[whozum]

Nope, like i said, there was a huge lie propogated by the "pro-death" side of this argument that stated that she had actaully said she wanted to be killed. There was absolutely no proof that she said anything and like i just said, a living will would have made all these lies and BS negligable sinec the problem would have been over the day she was put on (or taken off, depending on what the will would have said) the life support.

Makes you wonder, if a petition was issued on a national level with the sole question "If you were for any reason and in anyway rendered into a state of severe irreversible brain damage and/or death would you choose to live or die knowing that you're choice today could never be changed?" how many would say live? I don't know, maybe it deserves its own thread.

By the way, my post was addressed to russ, not you, I don't know if you picked up on that.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well, don't be so rude :) I was just overing some factual information for the argument if you don't mind. I assumed that question mark after "she claimed she didnt want to live" was suppose to be a period because it didnt make much sense otherwise which made me think you were bringing it out as a fact which was not the case.

 

[whozum]

Well, don't be so rude :) I was just overing some factual information for the argument if you don't mind. I assumed that question mark after "she claimed she didnt want to live" was suppose to be a period because it didnt make much sense otherwise which made me think you were bringing it out as a fact which was not the case.

It was a 'by the way', I wasn't meaning to be rude. I thought you thought I was challenging you.

I didnt pay much attention to the case, but that was one of the premises that I actually heard on the news.

 

[Pengwuino]

Yah the news got it all screwed up (wooo so out of character lol). There was no proof she had said anything and that's what really created this crap. No one knew her actual wishes. A living will would have made sure this was never brought to the medias attention.

 

[Evo]

Yah the news got it all screwed up (wooo so out of character lol). There was no proof she had said anything and that's what really created this crap. No one knew her actual wishes. A living will would have made sure this was never brought to the medias attention.

Three witnesses testified that she had said she would not want to be kept alive. That is accepted as proof in a court of law. The news did not get it wrong.

 

[FredGarvin]

Yah the news got it all screwed up (wooo so out of character lol). There was no proof she had said anything and that's what really created this crap. No one knew her actual wishes. A living will would have made sure this was never brought to the medias attention.

Hate to tell you this, but even wills are contested. Just because you have one in place is no guarantee.

 

[Astronuc]

Hate to tell you this, but even wills are contested. Just because you have one in place is no guarantee.

Posted by me in another thread:

A living will 'may not be valid' depending on 'State' laws. Best to execute a 'durable power of attorney' which takes effect only when one is incapacitated. One should see a lawyer in one's jurisdiction.

 

[russ_watters]

Posted by me in another thread:

A living will 'may not be valid' depending on 'State' laws. Best to execute a 'durable power of attorney' which takes effect only when one is incapacitated. One should see a lawyer in one's jurisdiction.

Yeah, but when you're married, isn't that redundant? That was half the problem here: the family contested the husband's authority. No, there wasn't a case to be made, but the way our court system works, it still took years to sort out. Having that document wouldn't have changed anything. In the parents' state, nothing would have changed anything.

In more normal circumstances though, the point of the living will is two fold - yes, it is to make sure your wishes get executed, but as important, it makes sure your wishes are known.

Yah the news got it all screwed up (wooo so out of character lol).

Actually, I thought they did a better than average job on this one - probably because they had time to learn the issue themselves, hire experts, etc. After the initial circus in which they reported a lot and said very little, the quality improved markedly.

Issuse such as the quality (or lack thereof) of the husband's basis for beliving she wanted to be let to die -- and more importantly, the irrelevancy of the quality of that evidence were reported by the media.

 

[Astronuc]

Yeah, but when you're married, isn't that redundant? That was half the problem here: the family contested the husband's authority. No, there wasn't a case to be made, but the way our court system works, it still took years to sort out. Having that document wouldn't have changed anything. In the parents' state, nothing would have changed anything.

Yes it is redundant, but it seems necessary these days. It is amazing how outsider's can involve themselves in one's own life.

A living will is not necessarily enough, and may not have been enough in the Schiavo case. Even an 'durable power of attorney' could be contested. It all depends on the local and state laws.

One's spouse, AFAIK, assumes power of attorney, but that may be only in a matte of death. If one is living but mentally incompacitated, it may not be so clear. One must do one's homework - i.e. go see a lawyer if it is a concern.

 

[Moonbear]

I don't have much knowledge in this area. Couldn't the brain damage be scanned or measured by a CAT or MRI scan?

It was. There was a CAT scan done and two images from it were posted all over the internet where just doing a side-by-side comparison with a CAT scan of a normal brain and her brain showed the extent of damage was severe even to an untrained eye (it was that obvious). However, the parents still held out hope that somehow half her brain would regenerate and return her to normal function.

Probably not, but do they have anyone who is trying? Sometimes it takes a serious - physical - kick in the ass or slap in the face to get someone to listen when they have lost it. That can only come from a very close friend or relative. Too often in situations like that people think they need to be "supportive" and they go along with it just to make them feel better about their delusions. Its Crossing Over syndrome (that talk-to-the-dead show staring John Whatshisnuts). In the short term the hope makes them feel a little less bad, but they will never get over it.

Well, they see how well that turned out for Michael Schiavo to stand up to them. Though, it didn't help that he barred them from the funeral. They needed to be present and to go through the ceremony more than most to see she's dead, gone, cremated, and the ashes buried.

 

[SOS2008]

Per Americans United:

The autopsy results, released today, showed that Schiavo suffered massive and irreversible brain damage and that she could not have been responsive to outsiders because she was blind. Doctors said what appeared to be responses were merely automatic reflexes.

"These Religious Right zealots owe the entire country an apology," said Barry W. Lynn, executive director for Americans United. "They intervened in a personal family matter, gave this poor woman's parents false hope, libeled her husband with unfounded accusations and turned a tragic situation into a political football. Have they no shame?"

Like I said...

G'dangit*%!frickin'*@#! frackin' -- Let's just round up these people who are in deep denial, clinging to their delusional beliefs, and put them on feeding tubes - yeh!

Frist, DeLay, Santorum--gotta get rid of these guys (along with that Dubya knucklehead).

 

[Loren Booda]

What if Ms. Schiavo's life depended on stem cells?

 

[2CentsWorth]

What if Ms. Schiavo's life depended on stem cells?

Tough luck until:

Frist, DeLay, Santorum--gotta get rid of these guys (along with that Dubya knucklehead).

 

[Evo]

What if Ms. Schiavo's life depended on stem cells?

Good one!

 

[Persefone]

Good one!

 

[enigma]

Bush and the neo-cons effectively killed stem cell research by banning any government funding into research into that topic.

 

[Astronuc]

I heard that Tom DeLay allowed his father, who was in a similar situation to that of Terri Schiavo, to die rather than intervene to keep him alive. I am not sure how true it is but,

Published on Sunday, March 27, 2005 by the Los Angeles Times
DeLay's Own Tragic Crossroads
Family of the lawmaker involved in the Schiavo case decided in '88 to let his comatose father die

by Walter F. Roche Jr. and Sam Howe Verhovek

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0327-01.htm

Hmmm.

 

[FredGarvin]

Yes. It is true. It was a kind of bizarre accident, but I fail to see the differences he states for his situation vs. Terry's.