Second Partial Derivatives of Implicit Functions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the calculation of second partial derivatives of implicit functions, particularly in the context of examples from calculus textbooks. Participants explore the methods for deriving these derivatives and the challenges encountered when applying techniques used for first derivatives.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion over the calculation of second partial derivatives for implicit functions, noting that methods for first derivatives do not seem to apply directly.
  • Another participant suggests that the implicit nature of the equations may be the reason for the difficulty in applying first derivative methods.
  • A participant describes a specific example involving two functions, F and G, and outlines the process for finding the first derivative using Jacobians, resulting in a specific expression for ∂x/∂u.
  • The same participant attempts to derive the second derivative, indicating that the differential operator can be chained and applying the product rule for derivatives, leading to a complex expression.
  • One participant questions whether both equations (F and G) are being used in the calculations, seeking clarification on the methods employed.
  • The original poster confirms that both equations are utilized in the Jacobian to derive the first derivative.
  • A later reply points out a potential reversal in the order of operations when chaining the differential operator, suggesting a different approach to the calculation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the methods for calculating second partial derivatives, with some expressing uncertainty about the application of techniques and others providing differing interpretations of the chaining of derivatives.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the limitations of their approaches, including the potential dependence on the implicit definitions of the functions and the complexity of applying the product rule in this context. Some steps in the derivation process remain unresolved or unclear.

rick1138
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I have been reviewing Calculus and have tripped up on figuring out to calculate the 2nd partial derivatives of imlicit functions. Kaplan and Spiegel give a cursory treatment to the subject in both of their "Advanced Calculus" books. Simply repeating the methods used to calculate the 1st derivatives doesn't appear to work. Any information would be appreciated.
 
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Simply repeating the methods used to calculate the 1st derivatives doesn't appear to work. Any information would be appreciated.

Why don't they appear to work?
 
I don't know - perhaps because the equations are implicitly defined. I figured out how the answers were calculated, I can apply the same formula and get the correct answer, but I don't know why it is correct - the "naive" solution appears to work correctly, at least integrating the 2nd derivatives come about by using the "naive" solution produces the first. I am going to post in more detail later.
 
Ok here it is. This example is from Kaplan's book - the detail is provided by me. Given a system of two functions:

<br /> F \equiv ( x^2 + y^2 + u^2 + v^2 - 1)<br />
<br /> G \equiv ( x^2 + 2y^2 - u^2 + v^2 - 1)<br />

Where u and v depend on x and y:

<br /> u = f(x,y)<br />
<br /> v = g(x,y)<br />

find

<br /> \frac{\partial^2 x}{\partial u^2}<br />

To find the first derivative, the method of Jacobians can be used. I am not going to provide the details, but the result is:

<br /> \frac{\partial x}{\partial u} = - \frac{3u}{x}

Finding the second derivative depends on the fact that the differential operator can be chained:

\frac{\partial}{\partial u} = \frac{\partial}{\partial x} \frac{\partial x}{\partial u}

So

\frac{\partial^2 x}{\partial u^2} = \frac{\partial}{\partial u} \frac{\partial x}{\partial u} = \frac{\partial}{\partial u} (- \frac{3u}{x})

Considering the function as a product of two functions and applying the product rule for derivatives produces:

\frac{\partial}{\partial u} [(- 3u)(\frac{1}{x})] = [\frac{\partial}{\partial u} (- 3u)](\frac{1}{x}) - 3u[\frac{\partial}{\partial u} (\frac{1}{x})]

After some manipulation:

- \frac{3}{x} - 3u[\frac{\partial x}{\partial u}(\frac{\partial}{\partial x}\frac{1}{x})] = - \frac{3}{x} - 3u(- \frac{3u}{x})(- \frac{1}{x^2})

And finally, the answer:

- \frac{3}{x} - \frac{9y^2}{x^3}
 
Last edited:
Are u using only the first equation (the one for F), or are u using the second (for G) as well?


Daniel.
 
Last edited:
Both F and G - they are used in the Jacobian to produce

\frac{\partial x}{\partial u} = - \frac{3u}{x}.
 
rick1138 said:
Finding the second derivative depends on the fact that the differential operator can be chained:

\frac{\partial}{\partial u} = \frac{\partial}{\partial x} \frac{\partial x}{\partial u}

It's actually in reversed order

\frac{\partial}{\partial u} = \frac{\partial x}{\partial u} \frac{\partial}{\partial x}

Daniel.
 

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