Seeking reference for math related to the age of Recombination

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculations and references related to the age of the universe at the time of Recombination, specifically focusing on the temperature of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation and the mathematical derivations involved in determining these values. Participants explore theoretical aspects, calculations, and references to existing literature.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references Wikipedia to state that Recombination occurred about 370,000 years after the Big Bang, with a corresponding redshift of z = 1100, and discusses the implications for the temperature of the CMB.
  • Another participant suggests that a simplified calculation of the age at Recombination can be found in David Tong's lecture notes, indicating that the real calculation is more complex.
  • A participant expresses gratitude for assistance from another user and shares their struggle with understanding the calculations leading to the age of the universe at Recombination, inviting others to identify their errors.
  • References are provided by a participant, including links to various sources that discuss the current temperature of the CMB and calculations related to the temperature at Recombination.
  • One participant calculates the scale factor at Recombination and discusses the integration of parameters based on the Friedmann equations, expressing uncertainty about the exact methodology used in the references.
  • Another participant shares results from different integration methods, yielding varying estimates for the time at Recombination, and notes that the previously cited value of 300,000 years is a rough approximation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the exact calculations or values related to the age of the universe at Recombination, with multiple competing views and methods presented throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the precision of certain values and the assumptions underlying their calculations, particularly in relation to the parameters used in the Friedmann equations.

Buzz Bloom
Gold Member
Messages
2,517
Reaction score
465
TL;DR
Wikipedia's article about Recombination says it occurred at about time T =370,000 years after the Big Bang. I have tried (and failed) to search for the math that calculates Recombination as happening at this time T.
The Wikipedia references is
It says:
Recombination occurred about 370,000 years after the Big Bang (at a redshift of z = 1100),​
and
the cosmic background radiation is infrared [and some red] black-body radiation emitted when the universe was at a temperature of some 3000 K, redshifted by a factor of 1100 from the visible spectrum to the microwave spectrum).​
I get that scale factor a(t) =1/(z+1) corresponds to the fact that the (about) 3000 K production of photons at time T is perceived now as 2.7260±0.0013 K photons. (See reference
paragraph 4 under the heading"Features".)​

What seems to be missing is how the value of T is calculated. I get that the value of H(a) can be calculated for the time T. If H(a) is known, then it would then be possible to calculate the distance at time T between (1) the source of the CMB produced at time T (and observed at time now) at (2) the place in the universe at T which is now Earth .

I hope some reader will be able to post a source for the math producing the value T.
 
Space news on Phys.org
Buzz Bloom said:
I hope some reader will be able to post a source for the math producing the value T.
A simplified version of the calculation is given in section 2.3.3 of David Tong's lecture notes on cosmology.

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/tong/cosmo.html

This simplified calculation is still fairly involved, but the real calculation is more complicated; see Mea Culpa at the end of this section.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Buzz Bloom and PeterDonis
ADDED: I FOUND MY MISTAKE! I fixed it below.

I very much want to thank @George Jones for his post to this thread. I have been trying for a week to grasp the process leading to the conclusion regarding the age at the universe at the time of Recombination, but I keep coming up with a wrong answer. I am hopeful a reader will be able to find my error and explain it to me.

It may be useful to start with references.
R1:
https://originoftheuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

R2:
https://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/tong/cosmo/two.pdf

R3:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedmann_equations#Detailed_derivation

R1 says:
the current temperature of the CMB is
T_now = 2.725K.

R2 says on page 101 what is below. If you want to find this page, I suggest you search for the text saying “101”.
The temperature at the time of Recombination is
T_rec ~= 3600 K.
The time at recombination is given as
t_rec = 300,000 years.

The value for z_rec is given as 1300. My guess is that this is because of the lack of precision to the value of the temperature T_rec. I choose to use a bit more precision.
z_rec = T_rec/T_now = 1308

I calculate a_rec as follows:
a_rec = 1/(1+z_rec) = 1/1309 = 0.00076394 .

It will be also needed below to calculate the value:
a_rec^(3/2) = 0.000021115 .

R2 also calculates the time t_rec based on simplification of the R3 Friedmann equation, based on
Omega_m/a^3 >>(Omega_r/a^4 + Omega_k/a^2 + Omega_Lambda).
However, it is not clear in the text exactly how this is done. I assume that R2 uses the R3 equation which is then simplified based on the above, assuming that Omega_m =0.3 remains in the process.
H(a) = (da/dt)/a = H_0 SQRT(Omega_m/a^3) = H_0 SQRT(0.3/a^3)
Therefore:
dt = (da/a) / (H_0 SQRT(a^3/0.3)) = [a^(1/2) x (1/0.3)^(1/2) x (1/H_0)] da
= [(1/0.3)^(1/2) x (1/H_0)] x a^(1/2) da
= 1.8257 x 14.4 Gyr x a^(1/2) da

Integrating I get:
t_rec = (2/3) x 1.8257 x 14.4 Gyr x a_rec^(3/2)
= 17.53 Gyr x a_rec^(3/2)
= 0.000021115 x 17.53 Gyr
= 21,115 x 17.53 yr
= 370,000 yr


I will see what a numerical integration using the full combinationof Omega_m and Omega_r.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
I decided to take a different approach to this topic in another thread. It will take me some time to figure out how to organize it. I have found some improved reliable values for the necessary parameters. The following are integration results using these "new" parameter values and using both integration methods., one with just Omega_m and the other also with Omega_r. These results obviously have more numerical digits than are appropriate for the actual precision of these values.

With Omega_m only:
t_rec = 358,590 years.

With both Omegas:
t_rec = 273,341 years.

The 300,000 years presented in
is obviously a very very rough approximate value.

By the way, if you want to find page 101, I suggest searching for the text "101".
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
1K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
473
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
6K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K