Self-learned physicist or pipe dream?

[Mr. Tambourine Man]

I want to know more about physics. In fact, I want to possesses a physics Ph.D's erudition. The truth is, I blew it in my younger years...academically speaking. Given my financial and academic situation it is basically impossible for me ever to get back into college (unless I stretch it out for 20 years, which I don't want to do). My ultimate goal is to have a healthy understanding of both Quantum physics and relativity...perhaps even Ph.D level if possible. Is it feasible to become a self-learned physicist, or might I as well forget about it?

If it's possible, what subjects must I study (minus extraneous liberal arts subjects for the time being)? I have a "general knowledge" of calculus (probably needs brushing up). My knowledge of physics is a combination of what I've learned from Naval Nuclear Power School and various Popular Science books (e.g. "Emperor's New Mind", "The End of Time", "Goedel, Escher, Bach", etc.). I am willing to follow any college's syllabus if I must and I am willing to pay the money for the appropriate textbooks. I just don't know where to begin.

Thank you.

 

[Vixus]

If you come up with an excellent theory that can be proved, I don't think your degree matters. :P

You're making a big decision here. Ask yourself:
- Why am I doing this?
- What will I do with my PhD?
- How much time do I have?
- Is it worthwhile?

 

[Mr. Tambourine Man]

- Why am I doing this?

Because it's fun.

- What will I do with my PhD?

Well...I won't REALLY have a PhD. Just the knowledge level of one. But to answer your question: Know more about the universe and perhaps, with a little luck, discover a great theory.

- How much time do I have?

A LOT.

- Is it worthwhile?

Definitely.

Thanx.

 

[inha]

Who will check wether you have understood things the right way? Who will check your excercises? Where will you do labs? There's more to learning physics than just reading. Zz. has made a avery nice distinction between learning physics and learning about physics. You can learn about physics on your own but the chances of learning physics without the interactions(teachers, peers) you'd have at an university are practically noexistant.

 

[zeta101]

When you do a PhD, its very specific piece of research, and by research I mean you actually work on something that no one has done before. You don't do a PhD in physics as such, it would be a PhD in nuclear physics, solid state physics, particle physics, astrophysics, or theoretical physics (there are a few more too). Even then, you're research would be in a pretty specific part of the field.

This doesn't mean of course that you can't read up about subjects that interest you, but like inha says, books can only take you so far. Nothing beats chatting to someone for 5 minutes about a subject you are learning about and having troubles in (however, I don't see why you can't use the people on this forum in a similar way! . You seem more interested in theoretical physics so you can get around not being able to do labs (I think!)

If you have the time then I think it's worth trying, if you enjoy the attempt then it's only like sitting in front of the TV in your spare time! But I would warn you that you need to have realistic goals for what you want to learn or acomplish.

May I ask, do you have a full-time job? If so, how do you also have a lot of time? Are you sure there is no chance you can follow a formal education in some way? Part time?

 

[kant]

I want to know more about physics. In fact, I want to possesses a physics Ph.D's erudition. The truth is, I blew it in my younger years...academically speaking. Given my financial and academic situation it is basically impossible for me ever to get back into college (unless I stretch it out for 20 years, which I don't want to do). My ultimate goal is to have a healthy understanding of both Quantum physics and relativity...perhaps even Ph.D level if possible. Is it feasible to become a self-learned physicist, or might I as well forget about it?
If it's possible, what subjects must I study (minus extraneous liberal arts subjects for the time being)? I have a "general knowledge" of calculus (probably needs brushing up). My knowledge of physics is a combination of what I've learned from Naval Nuclear Power School and various Popular Science books (e.g. "Emperor's New Mind", "The End of Time", "Goedel, Escher, Bach", etc.). I am willing to follow any college's syllabus if I must and I am willing to pay the money for the appropriate textbooks. I just don't know where to begin.
Thank you.

why? it is waste of time, and useless if you can t show for your labor. If you want some analytical fun, then why not try number theory? It is easy to learn, and plenty of problems to occupy one s mind.

 

[Vixus]

Hah, you don't need to learn. You're obviously going to find this a lot of fun. So try and think of a region of the scientist that you'll find most enjoyable, think of possible theories that need discovering. Try deriving some well-known theories by yourself to see how it's done.

 

[robousy]

Hi Mr T man,

I don't think its a pipedream at all. Everything starts with a dream - its up to you to make it happen though. Oh, and don't listen to people who tell you you won't be able to do it.

I'm 28 and in my 4th yr of a PhD in theoretical physics at the moment and am loving all the knowledge. It's very humbling to be honest as the more you know the more you realize you DON't know! When I was 15 my school careers advisor told me to keep physics as a hobby as I was not smart enough to do it...in fact most of my life people have told me 'you can't' - well screw them - YOU are the only one who makes things real.

Anyhow - with regards to some advice for you.

Firstly as someone pointed out a PhD is specific research - if you just want a general physics knowledge at the level of a PhD then a masters would be absolutely fine. On the other hand if you made it that far why not go the extra 3 years and get to be called Dr!

How to do it?

Ok, 2 routes.

1) Academic

You'd need to take some night classes to get you up to the academic level where you would be ready to take the GRE to get into a university to take a masters. Once you got into a masters you would be awarded a teaching Assistant position and could expect to make about $15000 a yr. You could fo tutoring on top of that. I make $20 an hr for tutoring and can tutor maybe 5-10 hrs a week. The masters should take 2-3 yrs.

2) Self taught.

This will be tough and you would need to dedicate 2-6 hrs a day and get lots of help from forums like this...

I have to go now but I might add some more later.

Good luck!

 

[Plastic Photon]

Just as in any other field of science (except biology) as long as you can learn the advanced calculus it should be possible to master the course material. There haven't been too many self-taught physicist let alone scientist who have made names for themselves in their fields. I can only think of Farraday and Foucalt, and they's from the 19th century.

But if physics doesn't work out maybe you should try math, maybe something like number theory.

 

[quantumdude]

I want to know more about physics. In fact, I want to possesses a physics Ph.D's erudition.

I hate to be the wet blanket but I don't think this is possible with self-study. You can certainly study all the coursework yourself, but that's not really where students learn to become physicists. They learn to do it via their research, and I can't imagine anyone doing a PhD level thesis without a thesis advisor. Your advisor is the one who guides you through the pitfalls and canyons, and he is the one who tells you whether or not your thesis is interesting, important, worthy of a PhD, etc. I also cannot imagine that you could be sure that your research is PhD-worthy without going through the gauntlet of the Candidacy Exam and Thesis Defense.

But you certainly can get a very high level "textbook physics" education on your own. May I ask, from what point are you starting?

 

[Integral]

At this point you are so far from PhD level research that it should not even be considered. The first step is to Start to learn some basic physics. Go to your local used bookstore and find a copy of Halliday and Resnick, Either the single volume "Fundamentals" or the 2 volume "Physics". Master every page, problem and exercise. While you are at the bookstore get a basic calculus text, Stewart is good, so is Thomas, and Silas & Hille. It is not necessary to have the latest edition of these texts, it is just necessary to master the material.

Math is critical for Physics you should also find texts for Complex Analysis (Churchill and Brown) and Linear Algebra (perhaps someone else can recommend a good text.)

Once you have Mastered elementary Physics and Calculus, come back for advise on the next level. Do not try to push to far ahead without mastering the basics.
These forums will have to substitute as your friend and tutor which should not be a bad thing.


Good luck and I hope to see lots of meaty questions in the near future.

 

[Astronuc]

To get to a PhD level of understanding physics, or even a Master's Degree level would require several years of rigorous study. Even a 4 year baccalaureate degree at about 16 hrs of core mathematics and physics per semester takes requires 3-4 years, and then a master's would require an additional 30-40 years and a PhD would require about 90 hrs, most which would involve research. In a baccalaureate program, one should probably put in 2-3 hrs of homework and study for each 1 of lecture, so 12-16 hrs of class would require 36-48 hrs of outside study.

Perhaps what you have learned from Naval Nuclear Power School is a start, but I suspect that Pop Sci books lack the rigour that one needs to really quanitiatively understand physics.

However, as Tom mentioned, dedicated study and support of forum like this, along with a fair amount of self-discpline (and I emphasize that point) is necessary to achieve your goal.

There are several threads in this forum including the tutorials section, the homework section, the physics/astronomy forums, and the textbook recommendation section (https://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21), where one can find much useful information. There are on-line courses and tutorials from various universities and colleges, which are often referenced within PF.

I wish you well!

 

[marlon]

Math is critical for Physics you should also find texts for Complex Analysis

I hope, for this guy's sake, that you are not referring to the concept of the Residue Theorem and all it's associated theorems or Laurent-series, Bromwich integrals, Laplace Transformations, Z-transformations,... Let's start with continuity, limits, derivatives, integrals (1D, 2D, 3D) first.

marlon

 

[Integral]

I hope, for this guy's sake, that you are not referring to the concept of the Residue Theorem and all it's associated theorems or Laurent-series, Bromwich integrals, Laplace Transformations, Z-transformations,... Let's start with continuity, limits, derivatives, integrals (1D, 2D, 3D) firstmarlon

I guess you are not familiar with Complex Variables and Applications by Churchill and Brown? It is an entry level Complex analysis text. Which does exactly :

Let's start with continuity, limits, derivatives, integrals (1D, 2D, 3D) first

OR what applies to the complex plane. For the reals that material is covered pretty well in any of the fundamental Calculus texts I referred to.

 

[marlon]

I guess you are not familiar with Complex Variables and Applications by Churchill and Brown?

No i am not. I imagined complex analysis just referred to calculus with complex variables. Anyhow, thanks for clarifying

marlon

 

[Careful]

Check out the webpage of G 't Hooft. He pretty much provides a whole programme you need to follow to be up to the task

 

[Astronuc]

Check out the webpage of G 't Hooft. He pretty much provides a whole programme you need to follow to be up to the task

Careful, please provide a link.

I found this - "HOW to BECOME a GOOD THEORETICAL PHYSICIST" - http://www.phys.uu.nl/~thooft/theorist.html

I also found - "HOW to BECOME a BAD THEORETICAL PHYSICIST " - http://www.phys.uu.nl/~thooft/theoristbad.html - "It is much easier to become a bad theoretical physicist than a good one."

 

[Careful]

Careful, please provide a link.
I found this - "HOW to BECOME a GOOD THEORETICAL PHYSICIST" - http://www.phys.uu.nl/~thooft/theorist.html
I also found - "HOW to BECOME a BAD THEORETICAL PHYSICIST " - http://www.phys.uu.nl/~thooft/theoristbad.html - "It is much easier to become a bad theoretical physicist than a good one."

Obviously, it is how to become a good theoretical physicist

 

[PhilosophyofPhysics]

I think this is an awesome challenge, but if this is what you really want and you get a lot of advice and some guidance from these forums, then I think you have a chance to become very knowledgeable in Physics.

I'm attempting to learn a lot of math and physics myself on my own with all of these online textbooks and help, but I am also going to college for Physics. I'm still only in basics Physics II and Calc II, so I hope to actually get ahead of my classes.


Penrose's Road to Reality really inspired me. I just have to know what those neat looking formulas mean and the math behind all of those fascinating ideas.

 

[michealsmith]

i got a good website tambourine...dont be put offf by the length ...
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~thooft/theorist.html

 

[kant]

i got a good website tambourine...dont be put offf by the length ...
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~thooft/theorist.html

Did you use google to find the link?

 

[michealsmith]

i used yahoo ..y?

 

[kant]

I am never very good in finding out stuff on the interest, so i was just curious.

 

[Treadstone 71]

If you are absolutely certain that you want to learn something entirely by yourself (i.e., neither going to a school nor by correspondence), I think it's much better if you studied mathematics instead. You know those jokes about mathematicians needing only pencil, paper, and waste basket? They are almost true: though nowadays we can probably add a personal computer.

 

[mombogumbo]

Its never to late!

No book, no television series, no exercise manuel will come close to having a teacher who can correct you, explain further concepts you are complicated with, etc etc. I suggest attending a community college they offer great financial aid that will pay for your books and classes if you qualify. Take some low level math and pyhsics classes to start with and if you want to attain the "PhD level understanding of physics" you can complete some transferable classes and before you know it you will be in a respectable university where you can continue your study of physics. Keep in mind FAFSA CalGrants (from CA gov.) or even loans. Money should never be the reason you cannot attend school! I would attend school even if the world was ending! If you are worried about your age and how you will interact with the younger crowd at the Universities I say to you It is never to late! At the end (if all goes well) you will have earned yourself a PhD and who knows youll be the one teaching others physics! Dont let money or age get in the way of your passion. Remember this : we only live once !

So go out and enroll in your local community college speak to a counsler he will set you off in the right foot.

 

[mombogumbo]

even if it takes you 20 years I would still recommend going to college.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I want to know more about physics. In fact, I want to possesses a physics Ph.D's erudition. The truth is, I blew it in my younger years...academically speaking. Given my financial and academic situation it is basically impossible for me ever to get back into college (unless I stretch it out for 20 years, which I don't want to do). My ultimate goal is to have a healthy understanding of both Quantum physics and relativity...perhaps even Ph.D level if possible. Is it feasible to become a self-learned physicist, or might I as well forget about it?
If it's possible, what subjects must I study (minus extraneous liberal arts subjects for the time being)? I have a "general knowledge" of calculus (probably needs brushing up). My knowledge of physics is a combination of what I've learned from Naval Nuclear Power School and various Popular Science books (e.g. "Emperor's New Mind", "The End of Time", "Goedel, Escher, Bach", etc.). I am willing to follow any college's syllabus if I must and I am willing to pay the money for the appropriate textbooks. I just don't know where to begin.
Thank you.

I am in exactly this position although I didn't so much blow it as have circumstances work to blow it for me. I now am In the position of spending the next seven years doing a physics degree. We have here something called the Open University which alows me to study part time. I'm not sure if you have the equivalent in your country. It has the support of teaching tutorials if you need them and meetings once a month to go over anything your unsure of. It also has very well written source material. This alows me to work and study part time, there's no way I can afford to go to University either even with a student loan the cost would be enormous. I just happen to be lucky to be in a position to pursue a good qualification whilst earning enough money to pay for the next level in courses and still have a little left over for the luxuries. It's damn hard work trying to work and study but ultimately I hope it'll be worth it.

I wrote student load that is probably more apropriate than loan(now it's education for the middle classes or wealthy again, instead of education for all regardless of social class, smart move for a suposedly left wing government)

I so wish this forum had a spell checker, I hate having to edit everything as I write. Just because the people who come here are mostly literate doesn't mean they can spell. Damn that's annoying.

 

[robousy]

This thread has been going around for a while now and I want to stress what I see as the an overpowering argument for why you should follow the dream of becoming a 'self learned physicist' and not let it become a 'pipe dream'. The simple fact of the matter is that each and every one of us, at some point in our lives, has a dream, an inspiration that we want to follow enthusiastically. Our lives are finite and to be Frank, no-one is going to present our dreams to us on a plate. You can only achieve a dream by strategic action. If it is something you want that badly then you should always pursue it. My biggest fear is to be lying on my death-bed at 80 years of age (if I am priviledged to that length of life) and to regret that things I didn't do, and to realize all of a sudden that I could have, if I had made a decision to do so earlier.

It is easier to make an excuse not to do something than it is to actually take action...but there will be more regrets at the end.

 

[CD]

I also suggest taking classes, even if you just take one class per semester. The growth you can achieve with a good teacher will reach far beyond that of a book. Even with the dedication and insight to self study you will still be missing out on the interaction and learning that takes place through interchange and guidance of a practicing physicist. You can try to substitute mediums such as the forums, but I still think you'd be better off dropping in on a class. Not that it's impossible to self study, but if you do go that route I suggest you follow Integrals suggestion.

Go to your local used bookstore and find a copy of Halliday and Resnick, Either the single volume "Fundamentals" or the 2 volume "Physics". Master every page, problem and exercise. While you are at the bookstore get a basic calculus text, Stewart is good, so is Thomas, and Silas & Hille. It is not necessary to have the latest edition of these texts, it is just necessary to master the material.

 

[thedreameater]

Can't do college...still want to know as much as possible about physics

Like Tambourine college isn't going to happen for me. Financially I am somewhat capable (savings going toward a house though).

My girlfriend pushes college on me as she is finishing her masters in molecular biology; but I am not a school kind of person. I barely made it through high school and at 32 still have nightmares. But I love science. I am a very slow learner with a poor memory so the rigors of a science degree of any kind is totally out.

Unlike Tam I don't share the lofty goal of a Phd understanding (I don't think I do).

I desire to be able to understand quantum physics on a mathematic level. Unable to find a road map anywhere, what would ya'll suggest as a first step math wise? I am brushing up on my basic algebra - trig. Any textbooks which you really enjoyed? Is there anything to buying a 'dummies' book (don't think they have equations and problems).

There were online courses at a site I saw for a small amount of money you could have an at-your-pace learning. Ring any bells?

Thanks all.

 

[scott1]

Einstien did his theories in his spare time.I don't know if he had a collage degree in physics(I know he had a degree in somthing).I know there is very physicst who self taught I'am not sure who.

 

[ZapperZ]

Einstien did his theories in his spare time.I don't know if he had a collage degree in physics(I know he had a degree in somthing).I know there is very physicst who self taught I'am not sure who.

Please check your facts. Einstein already had a degree in physics when he worked at the Swiss patent office. He certainly wasn't ignorant of physics when he developed his famous theories.

Zz.

 

[dama]

MIT OpenCourseWare in Physics: -->
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/index.htm

--> all the materials you need for quantum physics. :D

 

[thedreameater]

MIT OpenCourseWare in Physics: -->
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/index.htm
--> all the materials you need for quantum physics. :D

OMG! Thanks Dama! I don't know what else to say.

As soon as I am done downloading the site (afraid I may wake up from the dream of so much free information) I will sift through them to learn what math I need to understand them.

:!) thanks again!

 

[Valhalla]

http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html

MIT OCW website is not just for physics! They are working towards getting more and more classes with video lectures on there for FREE. I regularly use these videos and their problem sets to help supplement my own college coursework.

They have a good set of video lectures for math and physics!