News Serving Your Country: The Emotional Toll of Military Service

[chound]

Anyone who was/is miliatry personal here? How do you feel in battle field fighting someone who has not/has done anything bad to you? Do u feel very patriotic(as shown in movies)? Do you feel disgusted? Do you just shrug it off as a part of your work(like a butcher who kills many animals)?
In a miliatry base in a lonely part of the world(e.g. Siachen- the worlds highest battlefield) isolated, etc how do you feel?
Do u feel happy that you are serving for your country?
Or are u sad that no one really (I mean 100% sincerely) appreciates your difficulties, etc and go spend lots of money on film starts, etc.?

 

[NewScientist]

When you join an army, you swear an oath of loyalty, this is a sacred oath and is taken with the upmost severity.

When called upon, you go to battle and you do what you are trained to do - perhaps it is be a medic, be an armourer or perhaps it is as you bluntly hint - to kill.

If you are there to kill - you do so as this is your job - you signed up for it. Many of the men I served who's job it was to kill did not feel overjoyed at the thought of killing somebody - however, they did not feel deeply saddened as they knew what their purpose was - and if they had not killed - they themselves would have died. Personally, when I opened fire on an opposing force I did so knowing that people far above me in the COC had ordered it and therefore it must be necassary.

Now, this is in the British Army, and without sounding pompous, the Brits have never been gun-ho, throughout training, at Sandhurst, and elsewhere the ROE are explained and emphasised thoroughly to prevent such attitudes forming. In hand with this the soldier is taught not to become too absorbed in the emotion of killing and the sadness this can bring - and to some extent this is not needed in the middle of the firefight. For when you are stuck with fire from all sides you do not have time to think anyone's mortality except your own. 'If you think you're dead'.

However, after battle is the time most soldiers become saddened, they have to live with the fact they killed somebody, and that somewhere their is a son or daughter with no father, and a wife with no husband. Most men can rationalise this as it they new from day 1 this was what they would have to do - others cannot do the same and are forced (either by concionce or by superiors) to leave front line duty or the force. However, the latter is becoming rarer as the enemies states face now tend to be oppresive regimes, or terrorists, and so there is not as much of a guilt over killing. This may sound awful but I remember a quote from a TV show at some point which was :
"Why is a Kundonise life worth less than an American one?"
to which the reply came "I don't know it just is" . I think the message of this is not that the life of a foreigner is worth less than that of a national but rather than that of a non westernised national is worth less than someone of your own country. Again this is awful but true in the minds of most people if they think about it.

I was stationed in a lot of places, and some of them were very remote (cannot go into details) and sometimes the moral was awful- however for some reason you knew that if wherever you were was remote - you were safe and so that was a joy somebody - for example in Iraq at the moment -would not have. Added to this, increased commmunications around the world mean it is hard to ever be truly alone! Now, I know that many people have felt suicidal in outposts that are remote - bu tI have never felt that way - perhaps because I'm always happy!

RE: Serving my country. I feel immense pride that I serve my country and that I have protected her interests throughout the world - however, in my service i have seen many other peoples who give so much more than me that I feel privilidged also to have served with them.

And as for the film stars - am I sad? No. They have all sorts of different pressures on them - and also they have a job to do - to entertain so my philosophy is let them do it! And I feel that people do care for our sacrifices, people frequently go to the war cemetaries in Normandy and in Arlington - so I think it daft to think that people do not care - I think it is more a case of people not thinking about us! And perhaps wanting to avoid the taboo around death.

If you have any more questions do not hesitate to ask.

-NewScientist

 

[GENIERE]

...RE: Serving my country. I feel immense pride that I serve my country and that I have protected her interests throughout the world - however, in my service i have seen many other peoples who give so much more than me that I feel privilidged also to have served with them...

Well said and thank you!

India has little to be proud about although the "untouchables" fair a little beter now as socialism yields to a market economy.

...

 

[russ_watters]

Some of these questions don't make much sense, but I'll try...

Anyone who was/is military personal here?

US Navy...

How do you feel in battle field fighting someone who has not/has done anything bad to you?

I'm not sure what you mean - do you mean on a personal level? On the battlefield(yes, the sea is a battlefield), you know you are a professional and an instrument of your government, and your enemy is an instrument of his government. For everyone except infantry, you can disassociate yourself from the idea that you are killing an individual, but rather that you are killing an enemy ship, tank, plane, truck, etc.

Do u feel very patriotic(as shown in movies)?

Though I have never been in a battle, I'm proud and feel patriotic about my service - but movies are movies.

Do you feel disgusted?

No. Had I witnessed a Mai Lai type event, I probably would.

Do you just shrug it off as a part of your work(like a butcher who kills many animals)?

Most in the military know exactly what they are doing - there are no illusions. And a butcher doesn't necessarily disassociate himself with his work either. You seem to be implying there is something morally wrong with both. That is an opinion, and not one generally shared by those in the military (nor, I'd venture to guess, with butchers).

In a miliatry base in a lonely part of the world(e.g. Siachen- the worlds highest battlefield) isolated, etc how do you feel?

Isolated.

Do u feel happy that you are serving for your country?

Proud, yes.

Or are u sad that no one really (I mean 100% sincerely) appreciates your difficulties, etc and go spend lots of money on film starts, etc.?

Some people do appreciate it, but appreciation isn't why people do it.

 

[Art]

Chound,
I've read that in a non-conscript army people join up for 1 of 4 reasons;
1) Following in a family tradition
2) Patriotic fervour
3) As a job to earn new skills and earn money
4) To kill people legally
How anyone individual would answer in response to your questions would I think depend on which of the above was their motivating force.

 

[Daminc]

I was in the British Army many years ago and I joined for a number of reasons:

Firstly, I was too short to become a policeman (I originally wanted to become a detective).
Secondly: my father and grandfather were in the Army.
Thirdly: 'As a job to earn new skills and earn money'

I worked along side Americans a few times and their military mentality is chalk and Cheese to the British Army mentality. They tend to be trained to act as a whole group whereas a member of the British forces are trained to be individuals acting as part of a larger whole. There is a subtle difference.

From my personal experience, The British Army has strict guidelines to when a weapon can be fired and, if I can remember correctly, the first rule of engagement was 'If yourself, a fellow soldier or a civilian is in iminate danger you're allowed to fire in order to neutralise the threat'

We're also taught to not allow emotions to influence decision making (as was mentioned before: 'leave the emotions until after the crisis situation is over')
The issue of 'not thinking' during a combat situation is solved by constant training again and again in as many different ways as possible until you no longer have to think about a manuever you just do it by instinct.

Before the first Gulf war we started training at a faster pace (and in more specialised ways) 6 months before we new for certain we were going.

This is why I believe constripts have no place in today's military campaigns. To be blunt, they are more likely to be cannon fodder and cause unneccessary deaths on both sides.

Saying that, I also believe it would be better if school leavers and unemployed people serve a minimum of 6 months - 1 year in a military training facility.

I think I've gone of my original point though:

Americans: Fight for their country
British: Fight to prevent themselves and others getting killed.

I know that is a bit of generalisation that that's my opinion from personal experience.

 

[NewScientist]

Chound,
I've read that in a non-conscript army people join up for 1 of 4 reasons;
1) Following in a family tradition
2) Patriotic fervour
3) As a job to earn new skills and earn money
4) To kill people legally
How anyone individual would answer in response to your questions would I think depend on which of the above was their motivating force.

I was reading this and have to say that yes these reasons are valid (except 4 - for if your a psycotic bent on killing you wouldn't get far through training - in UK at least) however i would also stress that the army is job like any other and people join the army because they like the job and feel it is something they want to do.

The idea of Daminc about cannon fodder is a very apt one. If you look at the infantry kill ratios of a British Force and American Force the Americans lose a lot more people than the British and this is due to the calibre of the soldier. This is no disregard to the American soldiers who work hard and to the best of their abilities and training, but the british, as they are fewer in numbers, are trained to a higher level so that they can perform better. As a result, the British fair much better in infantry battle (Please note the word Infantry as the figures for remote warfare (smart bombs etc) regularly cloud the issue).
I have heard it said, especially from the higher-ups, that a British Soldier from a normal regiment is worth 2 Americans from the same sort of regiment, level and rank.


-NewScientist

 

[FredGarvin]

I was in the US Army and served during the first gulf war. Your "questions" are coming across to me as a sarcastic statement of some kind, but I'll answer anyways:

How do you feel in battle field fighting someone who has not/has done anything bad to you?

First and foremost, the military does not dictate policy. The politicians do. If there is a battle/war then there has supposedly been a lot of stuff happening before the armed services get involved. No one enjoys going into battle. There may be the occasional psychopath that does, but they are rare. If we are in battle with someone, there is a reason. They personally may not have anything to do with it, but they work for the people who were.

Do you feel disgusted? Do you just shrug it off as a part of your work(like a butcher who kills many animals)?

You have to shrug it off and do your duty. That is the only way you make sure you are the one that gets to go home to their family. Choose a better analogy than the butcher comment. That is borderline insulting.

In a miliatry base in a lonely part of the world(e.g. Siachen- the worlds highest battlefield) isolated, etc how do you feel?

Being in the field or at a remote location does wear on you. You adapt and do your best to make due.

Do u feel happy that you are serving for your country?

I never regretted it for one second.

Or are u sad that no one really (I mean 100% sincerely) appreciates your difficulties, etc and go spend lots of money on film starts, etc.?

There are times when you are in the arm pit of the world and you see that life back home is continuing without you. It's tough and some thoughts along those lines enter your head. Then there is usually something that happens that reminds you of why you are there.

The last person that wants to go to war is the soldier/sailor. They are the ones who are going risk their necks, not the politicians.

 

[loseyourname]

What films have you been watching, chound? Most of my favorite war films (Apocalypse Now, All Quiet on the Western Front, From Here to Eternity) don't exactly depict happy, willing soldiers that feel particularly proud about what they're doing. The typical Hollywood war film since the early 70's at least has been anti-war. Hell, take something like Platoon or Cold Mountain, which depicts soldiers turning on each other and terrorizing civilians just for the fun of it. Hardly patriotic films.

 

[Daminc]

"Saving Private Ryan" had one of the most memorable beginnings. It represents well the chaos that occurs in combat.

 

[vanesch]

4) To kill people legally

You mean, that thrill when the knife hits the bone and goes "thump" ?
Gee, forgot to take my tablets this morning...

 

[Smurf]

India has little to be proud about although the "untouchables" fair a little beter now as socialism yields to a market economy.

1. On topic and mature as always Geniere.
2. Socialism and Caste system are absolutely identical.
3. Ever heard of the Gurkhas?

 

[Daminc]

Gurkhas are amazing people. I worked with a few whilst I was in the Signals and I've never met a more dedicated bunch of squaddies. All around 5'3" who seem to eat curries all the time. With a constant smile on their face they will gladly back you up in a fight no matter what the odds.

It really pi**ed me off when the British government refused to repatriate them as British citizens (pension etc).

 

[Art]

Gurkhas are amazing people. I worked with a few whilst I was in the Signals and I've never met a more dedicated bunch of squaddies. All around 5'3" who seem to eat curries all the time. With a constant smile on their face they will gladly back you up in a fight no matter what the odds.

It really pi**ed me off when the British government refused to repatriate them as British citizens (pension etc).

I agree, I think though the British gov't has always been slightly embarrassed about them as it leaves them open to charges of employing mercenaries.

 

[NewScientist]

I have worked closely with the Gurkhas and they are damn fine men and damn fine soldiers.

I was in battle with them on a number of occasinos and have two stories which exhibit their skill and guts.

The first was when one of my men took a hit and a Gurkha medic came over to give him assistance, it turned out it was an GSW that gone through an artery. The Gurkha repaired the damage expertly in heavy fire conditions without breaking a sweat. I went to see him later to thank him on behalf of the regiment and he said to me,
"That is my job but that man had no stomach."
I replied - "Excuse me?"
To which he explained "He only had a gun shot wound, and he cried, he had no stomachy (no guts)."
This is not a story of Gurkha snobbery but rather the level of pain that they believe they can withstand and expect others to withstand - they are awesome. Their motto is "Better to die than be a coward"

The second is to do with the Gurkha Knife. Every Gurkha carries a knife (an 18inch curved blade called a kukri) and it is tradition never to remove it from its sheath unless you will take blood with it (if they take no blood in battle they cut themselves to fulfil the tradition). Serving on a different occasion with some Gurkhas where QCB was likely, they unsheathed their knifes and I turned to my collegues and even among the most battle hardened men I saw a look of amazement and dread. When the fighting began - they fought immensely , without fear and with a great intelligence and awareness. They were also ruthless. The kill count turned out very high, the Gurkhas taking over 60% with knifes.

The phrase don't mess with a Gurkha is almost as valuabler as don't mess with The regiment.

-NewScientist

 

[Art]

1. On topic and mature as always Geniere.
2. Socialism and Caste system are absolutely identical.
3. Ever heard of the Gurkhas?

BTW The Gurkhas are recruited exclusively from the Gurkha people of Nepal not India.

 

[Smurf]

BTW The Gurkhas are recruited exclusively from the Gurkha people of Nepal not India.

hmmm... my mistake.

 

[Art]

I was reading this and have to say that yes these reasons are valid (except 4 - for if your a psycotic bent on killing you wouldn't get far through training - in UK at least) however i would also stress that the army is job like any other and people join the army because they like the job and feel it is something they want to do.
-NewScientist

I don't think it was intended as like a mad axe murderer lol. Probably a good example would be snipers. I believe they are all volunteers and go through intensive psychological evaluation to ensure they do not have scruples about killing people coldly and dispassionately who do not necessarily present an immediate threat to them and that they will not suffer anxiety afterwards, something I understand most soldiers find hard to do if not in the heat of a battle.

 

[NewScientist]

Probably a good example would be snipers. I believe they are all volunteers and go through intensive psychological evaluation to ensure they do not have scruples about killing people coldly and dispassionately who do not necessarily present an immediate threat to them and that they will not suffer anxiety afterwards, something I understand most soldiers find hard to do if not in the heat of a battle.

Snipers are a special breed - I have heard a few stories from men I have served with. Firstly, if, on the final assesment if the whites of a sniper's eyes are seen they fail, if they fire and miss, they fail. I immediately thought woah! And then I was told about a multitude of tests snipers go though (for Spec Ops) they have to remain in a 0 degree celcius plunge pool for one hour and then take a shot, they have to be able to control their heartbeat on demand and tests are done on this - and my favourite was that they were told to shoot a tennis ball a mile away, but hit it so that it fell into a basket just to the right - and they can do it!

On the psycological side, I think snipers have to be able to remove themselves more than any other soldier, for when they take a shot, they HAVE to hit - it is in their blood that they HAVE to hit - so they 'zone out' and focus intensely - lowering their BP to >64 to enable them to get a shot.

-NewScientist

 

[Art]

On the psycological side, I think snipers have to be able to remove themselves more than any other soldier, for when they take a shot, they HAVE to hit - it is in their blood that they HAVE to hit - so they 'zone out' and focus intensely - lowering their BP to >64 to enable them to get a shot.

-NewScientist

The statistics I saw said that there is 1 battleground casualty for every 12,500 rounds fired compared to 5 killed for every 6 rounds fired by snipers. Which in $ terms equates roughly to $1600 vs $0.17 per kill ( this is after allowing for the difference in the cost of the bullets used)

 

[NewScientist]

The cost difference become less when you factor in training, time lost due to having to stalk out a target etc/move position, cost of special equipment. But even then I'm getting a saving of about $1000. In UK, the money difference is less as they are taught to conserve ammunition - I was at least.

-NewScientist

 

[vanesch]

I don't think it was intended as like a mad axe murderer lol.

Oops, I missed again

 

[Pengwuino]

Anyone who was/is miliatry personal here? How do you feel in battle field fighting someone who has not/has done anything bad to you? Do u feel very patriotic(as shown in movies)? Do you feel disgusted? Do you just shrug it off as a part of your work(like a butcher who kills many animals)?
In a miliatry base in a lonely part of the world(e.g. Siachen- the worlds highest battlefield) isolated, etc how do you feel?
Do u feel happy that you are serving for your country?
Or are u sad that no one really (I mean 100% sincerely) appreciates your difficulties, etc and go spend lots of money on film starts, etc.?

Theres some military history in my family but not for me personally. I have an uncle who was in Vietnam who doesn't talk about his time over there, another uncle who was on the DMZ but didnt see any action, and my grandfather was in WW2. My grandfather was almost at Pearl Harbor when it happened but got transferred somewhere else... like Washington state or something, i forget.

From the people I've heard about who were actually in combat, they say you simply survive by drilling into your mind that these people are trying to kill you. You have to ignore all the things surrounding what's happening and whos right and whos wrong and what not and think that either he dies or you die, nothing more, nothing less because that's exactly what the other guys thinking too.

 

[Pengwuino]

The statistics I saw said that there is 1 battleground casualty for every 12,500 rounds fired compared to 5 killed for every 6 rounds fired by snipers. Which in $ terms equates roughly to $1600 vs $0.17 per kill ( this is after allowing for the difference in the cost of the bullets used)

I think snipers use reallllllly good ammunition that costs roughly $1 per bullet.

 

[NewScientist]

In furthering what Pengquino said, I quote Patton who said "The aim of war is not to die for one's country but to make the b-tard die for his"

Ammunition is 7.62mm NATO or 7.62x54mm R for 700-800 metres max or 7.62x67mm or 8.6x70mm for above 1 click

-NewScientist

 

[Art]

In furthering what Pengquino said, I quote Patton who said "The aim of war is not to die for one's country but to make the b-tard die for his"

Ammunition is 7.62mm NATO or 7.62x54mm R for 700-800 metres max or 7.62x67mm or 8.6x70mm for above 1 click

-NewScientist

Just checked prices - $0.16 per rd 7.64x54mm R
http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/rifle.html

 

[Smurf]

In furthering what Pengquino said, I quote Patton who said "The aim of war is not to die for one's country but to make the b-tard die for his"

Which is simply not true. The aim of war has never been to simply 'kill people'.
So, to quote Sun Tzu "The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."

 

[NewScientist]

Smurf if you are sent into battle you are not essentially going to think - I this can be resolved without fighting - you have to make that man die or your dead - only the government needs to worry about the why and the therefores.

-NewScientist

 

[Daminc]

Smurf if you are sent into battle you are not essentially going to think - I this can be resolved without fighting - you have to make that man die or your dead - only the government needs to worry about the why and the therefores.

Battle situations are very fluid. The above example is ok for rookies but for an experienced soldier the thinking comes in determining if the possible target is hostile or not. If the designation is hostile then yes, it's kill or be killed.

Too many civilians have been shot by mainly american forces in the second Gulf war because all non-americans were designated as 'potential' hostiles. This is down to lack of training and an inability to channel their emotions during stress situations (e.g. in conflict).

 

[NewScientist]

After being in UK armed services for 16 years I understand Rules of Engagement - I was not commenting on the idea that you do not do a threat analysis the ROE, but rather that you do not question why you are in the battle when you are there - you merely accept that you are and act accordingly.

-NewScientist

 

[Daminc]

I was not commenting on the idea that you do not do a threat analysis the ROE, but rather that you do not question why you are in the battle when you are there - you merely accept that you are and act accordingly.

Ah, ok. It's just that most civilians that I've come across wouldn't differentiate between situation acceptance and the lack of thought during combat.

Also, the difference between the "no thought" (due to intense training) and "no thought" due to sheep mentality should be noted.

 

[NewScientist]

Yes, I remember early biology where I was taught about reflex arcs that exist in your spine so the thought process does not have to go to the brain to be responded to. In battle I like to think that a sort of reflex arc exists so that instinctively I do the right thing rather than conciously thinking, cover, fire, move, check rooftops etc - and the stripping of a rifle etc become natural reactions.

Thats what i meant!

-NewScientist

 

[1123581321]

i know a guy who was in 'nam, a SOG or recon or something like that. he was captured, and put in a camp with i don't know how many other guys. they were in bamboo cages, and were able to communicate somehow without letting the NVA know about it. one night, they excaped, killng men with their hands at first, then knives. they never used guns, they wanted to be stealthy. they found friendly forces 3 days later.
he never talks about they war unless he is drunk.
he is very proud of what he did, doesn't regret it, and signed up for a second tour of duty 3 months after being in the prison.


fibonacci

 

[Pengwuino]

Thats one thing I've actually noticed about WW2 vs. Vietnam vets. Vietnam vents just don't want to talk about what happened (like my uncle) there but WW2 vets will tell you stories for hours on end (my grandfather's friends... my grandfather never saw any action)!

 

[Art]

i know a guy who was in 'nam, a SOG or recon or something like that. he was captured, and put in a camp with i don't know how many other guys. they were in bamboo cages, and were able to communicate somehow without letting the NVA know about it. one night, they excaped, killng men with their hands at first, then knives. they never used guns, they wanted to be stealthy. they found friendly forces 3 days later.
he never talks about they war unless he is drunk.
he is very proud of what he did, doesn't regret it, and signed up for a second tour of duty 3 months after being in the prison.


fibonacci

Your friend is one of an elite few as only 36 POWs escaped during the Vietnam war. Here's the official US gov't list including their names. Which one is your buddy?.
US Prisoners of War who escaped captivity during the Vietnam War
Sorted by Name

USA S. Vietnam AIKEN, LARRY DELARNARD E4 1969/05/13 1969/07/10
USA S. Vietnam ANDERSON, ROGER DALE E2 1968/01/03 1968/01/12
USA S. Vietnam BRASWELL, DONALD ROBERT E4 1967/08/23 1967/08/24
USA S. Vietnam BREWER, LEE E5 1968/01/07 1968/01/08
USA S. Vietnam CAMACHO, ISSAC E7 1963/11/24 1965/07/13
USN Laos DENGLER, DIETER O2 1966/02/01 1966/07/20
USA S. Vietnam DIERLING, EDWARD A E5 1968/02/01 1968/02/23
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam DODD, JOE LEE 1965/10/10 1965/10/25
USMC S. Vietnam DODSON, JAMES E5 1966/05/06 1966/06/05
USMC S. Vietnam ECKES, WALTER W E3 1966/05/10 1966/06/05
USA S. Vietnam FANN, JERRY L E3 1967/03/21 1967/03/21
USA S. Vietnam GRAENING, BRUCE A E3 1967/03/09 1967/03/18
USA S. Vietnam GUFFEY, JERRY E4 1969/03/04 1969/03/04
USMC S. Vietnam HAMILTON, WALTER D E2 1965/10/18 1965/10/29
USA S. Vietnam HATCH, PAUL G E3 1969/08/24 1969/08/25
USA S. Vietnam HAYHURST, ROBERT A E5 1968/02/01 1968/02/23
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam HOLT, DEWEY THOMAS 1967/08/23 1967/08/24
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam HUDSON, HENRY M 1965/12/20 1965/12/21
USMC S. Vietnam IODICE, FRANK C. E4 1968/05/30 1968/06/01
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam JONES, EDWIN D 1965/12/20 1965/12/21
USA S. Vietnam KING, EVERTT MELBOURNE JR E4 1968/02/01 1968/02/08
USN Laos KLUSMANN, CHARLES F O3 1964/06/06 1964/08/31
USA S. Vietnam MARTIN, DONALD EUGENE E5 1968/03/02 1968/04/14
USMC S. Vietnam NELSON, STEVEN N E3 1968/01/07 1968/01/21
USMC S. Vietnam NORTH, JOSEPH JR E2 1965/10/18 1965/10/29
USAF S. Vietnam PAGE, JASPER N E6 1965/10/30 1965/11/04
USMC S. Vietnam POTTER, ALBERT J E5 1968/05/30 1968/06/01
USMC S. Vietnam RISNER, RICHARD F O4 1968/08/20 1968/08/22
USMC S. Vietnam ROHA, MICHAEL R E1 1968/01/07 1968/01/21
USA S. Vietnam ROWE, JAMES NICHOLAS O2 1963/10/29 1968/12/31
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam SMITH, LINDA 1975/03/10 1975/03/27
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam SMITH, MICHELLE L 1975/03/10 1975/03/27
USMC S. Vietnam TALLAFERRO, WILLIAM P E4 1968/02/06 1968/02/13
USA S. Vietnam TAYLOR, WILLIAM B E5 1968/03/20 1968/05/06
USA S. Vietnam VANPUTTEN, THOMAS E4 1968/02/11 1969/04/17
USA S. Vietnam WRIGHT, BUDDY E5 1968/09/22 1968/10/06
Number of Records: 36 End of Report

http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmsea/pmsea_escapee.pdf

 

[NewScientist]

Art - there are more, just not officially recognised due to the areas in which the troops operated or the way in which the troops were liberated etc.

 

[Art]

Art - there are more, just not officially recognised due to the areas in which the troops operated or the way in which the troops were liberated etc.

To keep this discussion factual do you have a reference to prove this statement?

 

[NewScientist]

Nope - I thought common sense would prevail.

 

[1123581321]

most of that SOG stuff no one knows about, its called classified. i know that more people excaped than that duering the course of the war. perhaps you are thinking only of airmen who excaped from places like the hanoi hilton.

fibonacci

 

[Art]

most of that SOG stuff no one knows about, its called classified. i know that more people excaped than that duering the course of the war. perhaps you are thinking only of airmen who excaped from places like the hanoi hilton.

fibonacci

source please?

 

[NewScientist]

Okay art - do you understand the word CLASSIFIED. And you nieve enough to believe that there are people the DOD do not want to become known - or more precisely some of their missions?

America has, and always will, be forced to make black bog ops and as such they will never appear on figures for casulaties as the people involved do not officially exist - they have no dog tags.

-NS

 

[Art]

Okay art - do you understand the word CLASSIFIED. And you nieve enough to believe that there are people the DOD do not want to become known - or more precisely some of their missions?

America has, and always will, be forced to make black bog ops and as such they will never appear on figures for casulaties as the people involved do not officially exist - they have no dog tags.

-NS

Are you naive enough to believe CIA operatives and the like, which I presume you are referring to, sign on for 3 month tours of duty at their discretion. Fib's post claims he KNOWS more than the people I listed escaped during the Vietnam war and so I have asked him for his source. I am particularly curious as to how somebody under the age of 17 has access to classified information.

 

[NewScientist]

I don't mean the Company, I'm talking about US Army Spec Ops, http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/BOOKS/Vietnam/90-23/90-23C.htm gives you a break down of deployments, these are the types of people you do not acknowledge the position of, nor the type of mission they are on.

 

[Art]

I don't mean the Company, I'm talking about US Army Spec Ops, http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/BOOKS/Vietnam/90-23/90-23C.htm gives you a break down of deployments, these are the types of people you do not acknowledge the position of, nor the type of mission they are on.

For goodness sake read your own reference. It gives extremely detailed information on the activities of this group during Vietnam including the names and ranks of those who won the highest honours. To suggest the names (and even existence) of special forces who escaped from POW camps is 'classified' is as ludicrous as it is ridiculous. I'd ask why on Earth you imagine this would be so secret (as if it is identities that are the issue then anon. labeling such as soldier A etc has worked well in the past) but to be honest I really don't care.

 

[NewScientist]

Okay - let me break it down for you - this is taken from WikI as I do not have time to write my own version:

Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention granted the POW rights to captured military personnel, some guerrilla fighters and certain civilians.

In principle, to be entitled to prisoner of war status, the captured servicemember must have conducted operations according to the laws and customs of war, e.g. be part of a chain of command, wear a uniform and bear arms openly. Thus, franc-tireurs, terrorists and spies may be excluded.

End of Wiki

So, a Spec Ops operative who does not wear a uniform is not classed as a POW - and it is not in the interests of the detaining force to make them a POW as this prevents them from torturing them. You may argue in 'Nam that this doesn't matter - however you must recognise that the DOD does not recognise some spec ops missions - thus the term black bag - the DOD has no link to the soldiers and as such has complete deniability.


-NS