Should I Switch Majors or Schools to Secure a Better Future?

[Alekazam13]

I'm a sophomore at UW, who loves math and physics. However, I have been thinking about changing majors as I need serious money to pay back loans, and seeing as BS physics majors don't get many jobs I might change. I don't want to change just for money, but right after college I need a job at least for a couple years or part time to finance my PhD . I have a iffy GPA of 3.2, so I couldn't change majors into Engineering and there is no way of getting into CS at my current school. Should I change schools and go into Physics and/or another major like CS at a crappy in state school? I really don't want to be stuck not being able to fund my PhD, and defaulting on student loans. Any advice is appreciated!

 

[axmls]

Finance your Ph.D? Most physics Ph.D students will not have to pay any tuition and will get a stipend as a TA or RA. In fact, it's usually said that if you have to pay for your Ph.D, that school didn't truly want you.

 

[analogdesign]

How do you think you're going to get into a PhD program if you have a 3.2 GPA? Engineering is most likely an easier path to repaying student loans but it's hard work. If you're not that into it you may become a mediocre engineer and then nobody wins.

 

[Choppy]

.. and seeing as BS physics majors don't get many jobs I might change.

Are you basing this on data or hearsay?

 

[e.bar.goum]

Are you basing this on data or hearsay?

Well, it's sure not based on data. https://www.aip.org/statistics/reports/physics-bachelors-initial-employment2012

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Get that GPA up. Work harder.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Well, it's sure not based on data. https://www.aip.org/statistics/reports/physics-bachelors-initial-employment2012

That data doesn't look so hot to me. Over half of graduates go to graduate school... Of those that don't 25% are unemployed or part time employed. Only 3% who are privately employed are employed in physics, but honestly even that number seems high. How is a BS physics graduate getting employed "in physics" and what are they doing?

They job satisfaction seems high. But then they just cherry picked the graduates who are employed and employed in STEM. That is a minority of graduates. The non-STEM positions have marginal job satisfaction.

I think that unless you plan on going all the way to a PhD there is little reason to study physics. The data quoted above shows you are unlikely to get a job doing physics, so you might as well major in something that might actually pertain to your future job. But if your GPA is low and you can't make it to engineering school then physics might be your only option. I have met more than one physics grad who did physics because they couldn't make it into engineering.

 

[e.bar.goum]

That data doesn't look so hot to me. Over half of graduates go to graduate school... Of those that don't 25% are unemployed or part time employed. Only 3% who are privately employed are employed in physics, but honestly even that number seems high. How is a BS physics graduate getting employed "in physics" and what are they doing?

They job satisfaction seems high. But then they just cherry picked the graduates who are employed and employed in STEM. That is a minority of graduates. The non-STEM positions have marginal job satisfaction.

I think that unless you plan on going all the way to a PhD there is little reason to study physics. The data quoted above shows you are unlikely to get a job doing physics, so you might as well major in something that might actually pertain to your future job. But if your GPA is low and you can't make it to engineering school then physics might be your only option. I have met more than one physics grad who did physics because they couldn't make it into engineering.

I'm sure you and I have had this discussion before. And I doubt we'll agree, yet again, but I do disagree with your interpretation. In 2012, the unemployment rate in the US was 7.9 %, and was little higher for new college graduates. Physics majors are much better off, already. Further, the article states that almost half those doing part-time work were biding their time before grad school. Further, 70% of those in the private sector are doing STEM jobs. All in all, these statistics show a positive story.

 

[ModusPwnd]

If all I got was a part time job after graduation I would want to go to graduate school "sometime in the future" too...

 

[e.bar.goum]

If all I got was a part time job after graduation I would want to go to graduate school "sometime in the future" too...

Or, if I was planning on going to grad school, but wanted a break from university for a while, I'd get a part time job. Maybe do some travelling. Hang out, smell the roses.

Oh wait! That's what most people I know who went into a physics phd did. I went straight into a phd like a chump.

 

[Choppy]

Why is it surprising that over half of undergraduate physics majors go to graduate school?

I mean, seriously, are there that many students out there who specifically choose to pursue a bachelor of science degree in physics with the intent of stopping at the BSc and getting a job? In physics? One group may be those who are specifically interested in teaching and are combining physics with an education certification. But beyond that I would argue that most physics majors at least start out with an intention of pursing a PhD.

I know it doesn't work out for everyone. And those who either choose not to go on to graduate school because they realize it's not for them and those who would like to, but who are not accepted are faced with getting jobs. The data show that they have unemployment rates that tend to be lower than most majors and certainly lower than the rest of the population. In fact, it's quite comparable to most of the engineering disciplines and engineering is a profession.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/HardTimes.2013.2.pdf
http://www.studentsreview.com/unemployment_by_major.php3
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/25-college-majors-with-lowest-unemployment-rates/
https://www.cap.ca/careers/home/employmentprospects.html

 

[Delong]

Or, if I was planning on going to grad school, but wanted a break from university for a while, I'd get a part time job. Maybe do some travelling. Hang out, smell the roses.

Oh wait! That's what most people I know who went into a physics phd did. I went straight into a phd like a chump.

I am on a year break after graduating and I think it is useful in some ways although I'd like to be back in school for graduate school ASAP...

 

[Physics-UG]

Why is it surprising that over half of undergraduate physics majors go to graduate school?

I mean, seriously, are there that many students out there who specifically choose to pursue a bachelor of science degree in physics with the intent of stopping at the BSc and getting a job? In physics? One group may be those who are specifically interested in teaching and are combining physics with an education certification. But beyond that I would argue that most physics majors at least start out with an intention of pursing a PhD.

I know it doesn't work out for everyone. And those who either choose not to go on to graduate school because they realize it's not for them and those who would like to, but who are not accepted are faced with getting jobs. The data show that they have unemployment rates that tend to be lower than most majors and certainly lower than the rest of the population. In fact, it's quite comparable to most of the engineering disciplines and engineering is a profession.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/HardTimes.2013.2.pdf
http://www.studentsreview.com/unemployment_by_major.php3
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/25-college-majors-with-lowest-unemployment-rates/
https://www.cap.ca/careers/home/employmentprospects.html

Look at those unemployment rates! Well, that's quite comforting!

Delong, if you're done your undergrad, and you finished with a 3.0, you can try and apply to some "lower end" schools, they may have that lower eligibility to get in. If you can't, perhaps think of another degree. However, and I don't mean to be rude but, don't place blame on taking "hard courses" for your GPA at the end. Everyone takes hard courses, and that's what separates the ones who truly loved it and wanted nothing else, and those who loved it enough to study it, but not pursue it.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Why is it surprising that over half of undergraduate physics majors go to graduate school?

I mean, seriously, are there that many students out there who specifically choose to pursue a bachelor of science degree in physics with the intent of stopping at the BSc and getting a job? In physics? One group may be those who are specifically interested in teaching and are combining physics with an education certification. But beyond that I would argue that most physics majors at least start out with an intention of pursing a PhD.

I know it doesn't work out for everyone. And those who either choose not to go on to graduate school because they realize it's not for them and those who would like to, but who are not accepted are faced with getting jobs. The data show that they have unemployment rates that tend to be lower than most majors and certainly lower than the rest of the population. In fact, it's quite comparable to most of the engineering disciplines and engineering is a profession.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/HardTimes.2013.2.pdf
http://www.studentsreview.com/unemployment_by_major.php3
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/25-college-majors-with-lowest-unemployment-rates/
https://www.cap.ca/careers/home/employmentprospects.html

To Choppy and e.bar.goum,

I'm not sure if you're aware of ModusPwnd's previous posts, but according to him, he had finished his BS in physics, had been accepted into a graduate program in physics but had "washed out" (i.e. failed to complete) his PhD, and was subsequently unable to find any technical or STEM related job (in fact, he was unable to find any job whatsoever), to the point that he ended up working as a pizza delivery man by leaving out his university degree altogether from his resume. (ModusPwnd, correct me if I'm misquoting). It was only after going back to school to take electrical engineering classes again (after years working in the said pizza delivery job) was he able to finally land a job in an engineering position.

I'm stating all of this above to give you a sense of where ModusPwnd is coming from in his criticism of the employability of a physics degree. Other PF members have chimed in with similar anecdotes about their difficulty in finding employment after studying physics (most notably ParticleGrl, who after finishing her PhD ended up working as a bartender for a year while she retrained herself in statistics/machine learning/data science and landed a career in that field).

 

[Delong]

Look at those unemployment rates! Well, that's quite comforting!

Delong, if you're done your undergrad, and you finished with a 3.0, you can try and apply to some "lower end" schools, they may have that lower eligibility to get in. If you can't, perhaps think of another degree. However, and I don't mean to be rude but, don't place blame on taking "hard courses" for your GPA at the end. Everyone takes hard courses, and that's what separates the ones who truly loved it and wanted nothing else, and those who loved it enough to study it, but not pursue it.

Should I take a few more classes and try to get my GPA up? I feel like just trying to explain my GPA in my personal statement. I hope that will help me get into somewhere. I know I'm not a mediocre student. I am very smart I just had some personal hang ups in school but I know I'm capable of graduate school.

 

[Delong]

Look at those unemployment rates! Well, that's quite comforting!

Delong, if you're done your undergrad, and you finished with a 3.0, you can try and apply to some "lower end" schools, they may have that lower eligibility to get in. If you can't, perhaps think of another degree. However, and I don't mean to be rude but, don't place blame on taking "hard courses" for your GPA at the end. Everyone takes hard courses, and that's what separates the ones who truly loved it and wanted nothing else, and those who loved it enough to study it, but not pursue it.

I should mention that I took hard classes in four different apartments. I took most of the hard classes from philosophy, physics, math, chemistry, and biology. I had a really full six years of tough classes I think my low GPA is more explainable that way...

 

[Physics-UG]

I should mention that I took hard classes in four different apartments. I took most of the hard classes from philosophy, physics, math, chemistry, and biology. I had a really full six years of tough classes I think my low GPA is more explainable that way...

The vast majority of those in physics are smart people. But you taking "hard" courses doesn't make you excusable when it comes to getting in. "Hard" is completely subjective. For example, I don't find anything in philosophy or biology hard. But, to me, some math or physics courses are harder than they are to others.

I'm not from the states, so I'm not positive how they evaluate credits. In Canada, we evaluate the last 20 courses you took, so essentially the last 2 years. However, if you consistently got worse over the years, say you went 4.0 - 3.8 - 3.4 - 3.1 they probably won't accept you because as stuff got harder, you did worse. If taking extra courses will help you, then go take extra course. But, you're still making excuses for a poor GPA. At the end of the day, all you have is you didn't try hard enough.

 

[Delong]

The vast majority of those in physics are smart people. But you taking "hard" courses doesn't make you excusable when it comes to getting in. "Hard" is completely subjective. For example, I don't find anything in philosophy or biology hard. But, to me, some math or physics courses are harder than they are to others.

I'm not from the states, so I'm not positive how they evaluate credits. In Canada, we evaluate the last 20 courses you took, so essentially the last 2 years. However, if you consistently got worse over the years, say you went 4.0 - 3.8 - 3.4 - 3.1 they probably won't accept you because as stuff got harder, you did worse. If taking extra courses will help you, then go take extra course. But, you're still making excuses for a poor GPA. At the end of the day, all you have is you didn't try hard enough.

The vast majority of those in physics are smart people. But you taking "hard" courses doesn't make you excusable when it comes to getting in. "Hard" is completely subjective. For example, I don't find anything in philosophy or biology hard. But, to me, some math or physics courses are harder than they are to others.

I'm not from the states, so I'm not positive how they evaluate credits. In Canada, we evaluate the last 20 courses you took, so essentially the last 2 years. However, if you consistently got worse over the years, say you went 4.0 - 3.8 - 3.4 - 3.1 they probably won't accept you because as stuff got harder, you did worse. If taking extra courses will help you, then go take extra course. But, you're still making excuses for a poor GPA. At the end of the day, all you have is you didn't try hard enough.

Well I never said I was the perfect student but I know I'm not stupid and I'm very capable I was just interested in a lot of different subjects. I don't know if graduate school is not my next step then what should I be doing? All I've ever wanted to be was a scientist I can't just give up on my dreams now.

 

[Delong]

At the end of the day, all you have is you didn't try hard enough.

I have to disagree I did try hard I wasn't lazy, you state it as if I just sat on my butt all day throughout six years of college. I really mean it when I say I took hard classes from five different departments simultaneously, it's not easy to get straight A's in all of them. I was just interested in a lot of different subjects I don't think there was anything wrong with that.

 

[Physics-UG]

Well I never said I was the perfect student but I know I'm not stupid and I'm very capable I was just interested in a lot of different subjects. I don't know if graduate school is not my next step then what should I be doing? All I've ever wanted to be was a scientist I can't just give up on my dreams now.

I don't think you should give up, by any means. You need to see how schools evaluate credits there and go from there.

I have to disagree I did try hard I wasn't lazy, you state it as if I just sat on my butt all day throughout six years of college. I really mean it when I say I took hard classes from five different departments simultaneously, it's not easy to get straight A's in all of them. I was just interested in a lot of different subjects I don't think there was anything wrong with that.

If you gave it your absolute best and came out with a 3.0 maybe physics isn't the right fit for you. But you are also continuously placing weight on hard courses you took, as if it matters. I'm not calling you incompetent, but I am saying the courses you took don't matter for admissions. They don't care how hard you thought they were, so writing it into your application won't matter. The point of notes is that you add extenuating circumstances like "during year 2 my mother was diagnosed with cancer and that's why I got a 2.5". Stuff like that is what is taken into consideration, not "biology is hard".

 

[Delong]

I don't think you should give up, by any means. You need to see how schools evaluate credits there and go from there.
If you gave it your absolute best and came out with a 3.0 maybe physics isn't the right fit for you. But you are also continuously placing weight on hard courses you took, as if it matters. I'm not calling you incompetent, but I am saying the courses you took don't matter for admissions. They don't care how hard you thought they were, so writing it into your application won't matter. The point of notes is that you add extenuating circumstances like "during year 2 my mother was diagnosed with cancer and that's why I got a 2.5". Stuff like that is what is taken into consideration, not "biology is hard".

Ok thanks...

I know physics is not for me. In truth I think I am most cut out for microbiology...I just took a lot of different science classes though so I don't know maybe that will be a positive for graduate programs?

 

[Physics-UG]

Ok thanks...

I know physics is not for me. In truth I think I am most cut out for microbiology...I just took a lot of different science classes though so I don't maybe that will be a positive for graduate programs?

I think grad schools for bio would want you to have more bio knowledge. However, I do think some will take you in and you just take some undergrad courses as a grad student to improve knowledge until you advance. That's possible to look into.

 

[homeomorphic]

Getting jobs has a lot to do with job search ability, so maybe the thing to do is read some books about that. Statistics may say X% of physics majors got a job, but they don't typically tell us how hard it was for them all to get that job. I think the main point of my pessimism about the job market is not to claim that people aren't getting jobs, but rather to clue people in on how bad the situation is if you search the internet and look at how outrageous the job postings are to someone who is a newcomer to the job market and how difficult it can be to find somewhere where you fit in and someone willing to hire you, regardless of whatever the stats say. The thing is that getting a job is something that you pretty much have to do. so people find a way, even if it's hard. If you put a bunch of people in a room for a few days and require them to learn to juggle 3 balls or else have their heads chopped off, you might get 100% of them learning to juggle the 3 balls, but that doesn't mean it was easy, it just means that it's doable. And the fact that the stats are even moderately bad for something that is more or less a requirement indicates the difficulty. Although I think we have way, way more physics and math majors than is justified by the demand, I am more concerned about cluing people in on the gravity of the situation, so that they don't walk in unprepared like I did, than I am about scaring them away from studying the subjects. And I think my job search gives me enough data to say, yes, that's how the job market is right now, at least as of 6 months ago because it's not my experience and personal difficulties, but rather the hundreds of job postings that I looked at that inform my outlook.

Just be prepared for it because it can be brutal if you don't have connections to get you the interviews. So, get as many connections as you can and be as prepared as you can for the kind of interview you are likely to face. And have a plan. That's more important than your major. Just don't count on things working out. Even if it's 5% chance of being unemployed for a year, I think that's too high, although it's too high for everyone, not just physics majors.

 

[symbolipoint]

Ok thanks...

I know physics is not for me. In truth I think I am most cut out for microbiology...I just took a lot of different science classes though so I don't know maybe that will be a positive for graduate programs?

Finally, a mention of something that makes a person more employable. If you think you're cut out for Microbiology --- did you study enough courses to make you useful in a public health, medical-related, or food technology job?

 

[Delong]

Finally, a mention of something that makes a person more employable. If you think you're cut out for Microbiology --- did you study enough courses to make you useful in a public health, medical-related, or food technology job?

I did a summer REU on a microbiology project and I took a class in molecular biology where we worked intensively with bacteria. I also took a lot of related courses like genetics, biochemistry, and analytical chemistry I mean I feel like I would be very satisfied with a microbiology job if I can do nothing else in STEM...

 

[StatGuy2000]

Getting jobs has a lot to do with job search ability, so maybe the thing to do is read some books about that. Statistics may say X% of physics majors got a job, but they don't typically tell us how hard it was for them all to get that job. I think the main point of my pessimism about the job market is not to claim that people aren't getting jobs, but rather to clue people in on how bad the situation is if you search the internet and look at how outrageous the job postings are to someone who is a newcomer to the job market and how difficult it can be to find somewhere where you fit in and someone willing to hire you, regardless of whatever the stats say. The thing is that getting a job is something that you pretty much have to do. so people find a way, even if it's hard. If you put a bunch of people in a room for a few days and require them to learn to juggle 3 balls or else have their heads chopped off, you might get 100% of them learning to juggle the 3 balls, but that doesn't mean it was easy, it just means that it's doable. And the fact that the stats are even moderately bad for something that is more or less a requirement indicates the difficulty. Although I think we have way, way more physics and math majors than is justified by the demand, I am more concerned about cluing people in on the gravity of the situation, so that they don't walk in unprepared like I did, than I am about scaring them away from studying the subjects. And I think my job search gives me enough data to say, yes, that's how the job market is right now, at least as of 6 months ago because it's not my experience and personal difficulties, but rather the hundreds of job postings that I looked at that inform my outlook.

Just be prepared for it because it can be brutal if you don't have connections to get you the interviews. So, get as many connections as you can and be as prepared as you can for the kind of interview you are likely to face. And have a plan. That's more important than your major. Just don't count on things working out. Even if it's 5% chance of being unemployed for a year, I think that's too high, although it's too high for everyone, not just physics majors.

homeomorphic, even you would acknowledge that pursuing a PhD in pure mathematics (probably among the least employable path to pursuing a career in STEM outside of academia, along with certain fields of physics e.g. astrophysics, theoretical high-energy physics, cosmology) combined with little to no practical work experience (whether through an internship or otherwise) contributed to your specific difficulty in landing a position. So while I agree that one should always have a plan on what to pursue once one is finished with school (be it a BS or a PhD), it isn't necessarily accurate to say that other physics or math majors will necessarily face the same type of difficulty you faced.

For example, I would expect that the employment prospects for those in, say, medical physics, accelerator physics, computational physics, or even experimental condensed matter physics will actually be quite good. Ditto for a math graduate specializing in various areas of applied math (e.g. scientific computing/numerical analysis, operations research, algorithms, probability, financial math, control theory, cryptography, etc.) or math-related programs (e.g. theoretical CS, statistics, economics, etc.).

 

[Vanadium 50]

Homeomorphic, enough is enough. The fact that you failed in reaching your goals does not mean everyone will fail. Particularly because, and I am sorry I have to say this, your problems have been largely self-inflicted. The advice you are giving is bad, because the fault is, as they say "not oin our degrees but in ourselves".

 

[homeomorphic]

it isn't necessarily accurate to say that other physics or math majors will necessarily face the same type of difficulty you faced.

True, but the problem is that I never claimed they would. I just claim they will face the same job postings that I did. And yes, that will be less of a problem for some, but there's no denying that it isn't pretty.

The fact that you failed in reaching your goals does not mean everyone will fail.

When exactly did I say that?

Particularly because, and I am sorry I have to say this, your problems have been largely self-inflicted.

I don't know how you could possibly claim to know that. I have a lot of problems due to being socially incompetent, and I believe a large factor in that is my genetics.

The advice you are giving is bad, because the fault is, as they say "not oin our degrees but in ourselves".

So, basically, what you are saying is that it's a good idea to be unprepared for the job market.

 

[Alekazam13]

Thanks for the input everyone. I guess it comes down to getting that GPA up and having the connections in Physics to get jobs. I guess, after this intro calculus based level series I will reevaluate. Teachers also play a huge role in grades. If need be I can always switch colleges and go to a less competitive atmosphere. I still have a lot more material to go through before I can figure out if I should switch majors or colleges. Thanks!

 

[Alekazam13]

Get that GPA up. Work harder.

I don't think its just about working harder, but smarter and more effectively as I am always a hard worker. Now that I understand "the game" of what college is, I can boost that GPA up and hopefully get in decent physics programs! Thanks for the advice!

 

[Dr. Courtney]

I don't think its just about working harder, but smarter and more effectively as I am always a hard worker. Now that I understand "the game" of what college is, I can boost that GPA up and hopefully get in decent physics programs! Thanks for the advice!

It too me 60+ hours a week of working smarter and harder to post a 3.8-4.0 GPA each semester majoring in Physics.

If you fantasize that working smarter is all you need to do if you are only working 30-50 hours a week, you will fall short.

 

[homeomorphic]

Thanks for the input everyone. I guess it comes down to getting that GPA up and having the connections in Physics to get jobs. I guess, after this intro calculus based level series I will reevaluate. Teachers also play a huge role in grades. If need be I can always switch colleges and go to a less competitive atmosphere. I still have a lot more material to go through before I can figure out if I should switch majors or colleges.

Don't take my word for it. Look at some job postings and see what actual employers have to say about what they are looking for, rather than listen to anyone here. But keep in mind that they exaggerate, so it looks slightly worse than it actually is. Also, you have to keep in mind that it's really hard to actually get a job from those postings, but it does give you a way to look at what's out there.

As far as connections go, it always pays off to read books about people skills. That's particularly obvious to me because I have particular difficulties in that area (contrary to what some people on here think, it has more to do with not connecting with people due to being more like Spock or something in real life, rather than being belligerent and complaining like I do on here), but I think more normal people can actually get a lot more leverage out of it because they aren't too impaired to apply a lot of the principles, like I am.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

I don't think its just about working harder, but smarter and more effectively as I am always a hard worker. Now that I understand "the game" of what college is, I can boost that GPA up and hopefully get in decent physics programs! Thanks for the advice!

Going the easy route will hamper your success. If all you care about is getting good grades and not actually learning, then studying physics is not for you. There are 100 things much harder than Calculus. Taking the easy route will harm yourself in the long run. Last semester I saw a class full of students drop a linear algebra course, because they took the "easy way" out in there other math courses. Needless to say, memorizing algorithms or problems did not work for them, when we were asked prove theorems in class.

It is okay to struggle with the material. What is important you give it an honest shot and actually try. There is no magical formula.

 

[Vanadium 50]

So, basically, what you are saying is that it's a good idea to be unprepared for the job market.

I said no such thing. Your advice is still terrible, and I wish you would stop it.

 

[homeomorphic]

I said no such thing. Your advice is still terrible, and I wish you would stop it.

Well, let's see. What advice did I give on this thread prior to your last post?

1) Read a job search book.
2) Be prepared.

So, I fail to see how you said no such thing. True, you didn't intentionally say it, but you did unintentionally say it by failing to realize the implications and by bringing in stuff that I said from outside the thread that is not relevant to what I said.

The rest of what I said was not actually advice, just opinion, and a reminder of the facts on the ground, as can be verified by visiting a website, like http://www.indeed.com. I don't think many physics majors would say that what they find there represents an ideal situation for their options if they should end up with just a BS in physics. Does it mean they are going to be homeless? Probably not. Does it mean that they will have studied something they are not going to use? Quite possibly, or at least the risk that that will happen is significant, especially if they are particularly interested in particle physics or something like that. Whether or not that is grounds for not majoring in physics is a personal question that is up to the individual, but some people would actually see that as sufficient reason to pursue something else, and there is nothing wrong with them if they decide that is the case. There's also nothing wrong with deciding to take a risk or even realizing that there isn't a risk if there is really sufficient reason to believe that there isn't a risk (say your dad has tons of connections and can get you a job anywhere, etc.,).

 

[Alekazam13]

It too me 60+ hours a week of working smarter and harder to post a 3.8-4.0 GPA each semester majoring in Physics.

If you fantasize that working smarter is all you need to do if you are only working 30-50 hours a week, you will fall short.

I was putting in around 60 hours a week of studying, but I think it was more of a learning curve of what I needed to do. This is what I mean about working smarter. You could work the entire week non stop, 24 hours a day and be doing the wrong things and still not get a good GPA.

 

[symbolipoint]

Well, let's see. What advice did I give on this thread prior to your last post?

1) Read a job search book.
2) Be prepared.

So, I fail to see how you said no such thing. True, you didn't intentionally say it, but you did unintentionally say it by failing to realize the implications and by bringing in stuff that I said from outside the thread that is not relevant to what I said.

The rest of what I said was not actually advice, just opinion, and a reminder of the facts on the ground, as can be verified by visiting a website, like http://www.indeed.com. I don't think many physics majors would say that what they find there represents an ideal situation for their options if they should end up with just a BS in physics. Does it mean they are going to be homeless? Probably not. Does it mean that they will have studied something they are not going to use? Quite possibly, or at least the risk that that will happen is significant, especially if they are particularly interested in particle physics or something like that. Whether or not that is grounds for not majoring in physics is a personal question that is up to the individual, but some people would actually see that as sufficient reason to pursue something else, and there is nothing wrong with them if they decide that is the case. There's also nothing wrong with deciding to take a risk or even realizing that there isn't a risk if there is really sufficient reason to believe that there isn't a risk (say your dad has tons of connections and can get you a job anywhere, etc.,).

Physics by itself is great but not enough. Studying Physics involves so much more that is not immediately recognized, because the focus is on understanding and solving either research or academic problems. Several courses or subjects on their own are not enough either. What did the successful Physics graduates study? Just Physics and some extra Mathematics? NO! Sit with a few Physics students (majoring usually in Physics). They talk. They discuss a few things during this leisure or study time. What will they tell each other? You find that even before graduating, some of them already have some part time technical or science job; or are dipping into such courses as Engineering, or Computer Science/Programming, and maybe some other type of course. These people are either becoming successes right then, or are preparing for success currently, for later.

 

[homeomorphic]

Going the easy route will hamper your success. If all you care about is getting good grades and not actually learning, then studying physics is not for you. There are 100 things much harder than Calculus. Taking the easy route will harm yourself in the long run. Last semester I saw a class full of students drop a linear algebra course, because they took the "easy way" out in there other math courses. Needless to say, memorizing algorithms or problems did not work for them, when we were asked prove theorems in class.

It is okay to struggle with the material. What is important you give it an honest shot and actually try. There is no magical formula.

I prefer Dr. Courtney's answer that you have to work hard AND smart. Memorization and just going for grades has nothing to do with working smarter--that's working dumber. Understanding a thing or two about the psychology of learning on the other hand--that's a good idea. So, yes, you can save yourself some effort.

As I found out, it's important not to work too hard or you will get burned out.

 

[Alekazam13]

Going the easy route will hamper your success. If all you care about is getting good grades and not actually learning, then studying physics is not for you. There are 100 things much harder than Calculus. Taking the easy route will harm yourself in the long run. Last semester I saw a class full of students drop a linear algebra course, because they took the "easy way" out in there other math courses. Needless to say, memorizing algorithms or problems did not work for them, when we were asked prove theorems in class.

It is okay to struggle with the material. What is important you give it an honest shot and actually try. There is no magical formula.

That's very true. I guess what I am trying to say is I am learning how to study in a smart effective way that while it still takes time, doesn't waste my time. I will always work hard for my goals.

 

[homeomorphic]

Physics by itself is great but not enough. Studying Physics involves so much more that is not immediately recognized, because the focus is on understanding and solving either research or academic problems. Several courses or subjects on their own are not enough either. What did the successful Physics graduates study? Just Physics and some extra Mathematics? NO! Sit with a few Physics students (majoring usually in Physics). They talk. They discuss a few things during this leisure or study time. What will they tell each other? You find that even before graduating, some of them already have some part time technical or science job; or are dipping into such courses as Engineering, or Computer Science/Programming, and maybe some other type of course. These people are either becoming successes right then, or are preparing for success currently, for later.

That's part of my point. I would add people skills to the list of skills.

I hesitate to bring this up for fear that people will misrepresent my opinion based on the fact that I have had certain personal experiences (math PhD with a strong interest in physics) but I actually knew a ton of electrical engineering and computer science, but I didn't get any credit for knowing it in the job market until someone finally interviewed me and figured out that I was actually a pretty good candidate for a software developer job. So, if you can't sell yourself on the job market, all that extra knowledge will not do you much good.

 

[Almeisan]

If all I got was a part time job after graduation I would want to go to graduate school "sometime in the future" too...

Be sure to compare it with other degrees. It may be that recently graduated just end up a lot with part-time jobs, for whatever reason.

 

[StatGuy2000]

True, but the problem is that I never claimed they would. I just claim they will face the same job postings that I did. And yes, that will be less of a problem for some, but there's no denying that it isn't pretty.

To homeomorphic,

First of all, that is not strictly true, as job postings will likely have changed and will change from the time you had searched for work (OK, that's nitpicking, but I had to point it out). So job postings may well be "prettier" than what you would have seen.

Second, job postings are not necessarily reflective of actual open job positions out there -- many positions are filled without any type of open job posting on websites like Indeed, Workopolis, Monster, etc.

Third, job postings that you see on these websites are not necessarily strict requirements (even if it is stated that way), but are wishlists for the "ideal candidate", and should best be thought of that way. Let's take a software development job as an example. Many of these positions will ask the candidates to have "a BS in computer science or equivalent", or something like that. You may think that would exclude those with, say, a physics or math degree, but the truth of it is that a physics or math degree is for all practical purposes the "equivalent" of a CS degree, so long as the candidate have the skills required for the job (e.g. programming experience in C++, SQL, or whatever).

Fourth, you often talk about being socially incompetent in your other threads. This may indeed be genetic (e.g. perhaps you suffer from Asperger's), but social skills are things that can be improved through practice & coaching. Anyone can become better at reading social cues and developing better communication skills through practice, through things like public speaking classes, speech coaches, through therapists, or through working with friends/family (if they are willing/able to help).

 

[homeomorphic]

Second, job postings are not necessarily reflective of actual open job positions out there -- many positions are filled without any type of open job posting on websites like Indeed, Workopolis, Monster, etc.

Third, job postings that you see on these websites are not necessarily strict requirements (even if it is stated that way), but are wishlists for the "ideal candidate", and should best be thought of that way. Let's take a software development job as an example. Many of these positions will ask the candidates to have "a BS in computer science or equivalent", or something like that. You may think that would exclude those with, say, a physics or math degree, but the truth of it is that a physics or math degree is for all practical purposes the "equivalent" of a CS degree, so long as the candidate have the skills required for the job (e.g. programming experience in C++, SQL, or whatever).

Yes, but if you apply to those things, you might have to apply to hundreds of them to get even one interview. The thing is that people are going to have to solve the same sort of problem that I faced. It's like you just hit a wall if you aren't that good at networking. I don't believe you that people don't care about the degree and just what you can do. If that was true, I would have been hired instantly. I eventually did become a software developer, and I'm pretty good at it. Heck, I'm even good at the social aspects of it, which are fairly minimal. I'm just no good at networking and getting an interview.

Fourth, you often talk about being socially incompetent in your other threads. This may indeed be genetic (e.g. perhaps you suffer from Asperger's), but social skills are things that can be improved through practice & coaching. Anyone can become better at reading social cues and developing better communication skills through practice, through things like public speaking classes, speech coaches, through therapists, or through working with friends/family (if they are willing/able to help).

Which is part of the advice that I myself gave earlier. As I said, more normal people may be able to get even more leverage out of it than I can. I did a little questionnaire, and it's highly unlikely that I have full-blown Aspergers, but I would put myself in the very mildly autistic category.

 

[atyy]

Be sure to compare it with other degrees. It may be that recently graduated just end up a lot with part-time jobs, for whatever reason.

One thing that does make me wonder is that some of the recommendations from the APS for keeping the physics major up to date for the job market echoes what ModusPwnd has been saying, eg. second majors or dual degress

From https://www.aip.org/statistics/reports/equipping-physics-majors
What faculty members can do:
Assess the common paths of your physics alumni and the interests of your students (and the students who quit the program) and consider whether it makes sense to expand your offerings. The possibilities are broad and could include both informal and formal changes, but here are some examples:
o Actively encourage physics students to complete minors or second majors in line with their interests and ambitions, including in fields like economics, business, biology, journalism, education, and computer science.
o Informally or formally incorporate concentrations or areas of specialization within the majors, e.g., physics education or biophysics.
o Develop multiple physics degree programs to address students interested in attending graduate school, going right into the workforce (e.g., a professional physics degree), or going into a related field (e.g., an engineering physics degree). These might include a common set of classes but diverge when it comes to upperlevel requirements.
o Establish a dual-degree program, such as a physics–engineering 3-2 program where upon completion students earn a physics degree from one school and an engineering degree from a partner school.
o Provide physics majors with access to certificate or other training programs in specialized software packages that are valued by employers (e.g., LabVIEW), or in specialized equipment.
o Identify potential partner departments on your campus (e.g., medicine, business, education) and work with them to develop interdisciplinary courses of study that combine aspects of the disciplines.
o Consider ways to address physics career options directly through seminar classes or other departmental activities.

 

[micromass]

Yes, but if you apply to those things, you might have to apply to hundreds of them to get even one interview. The thing is that people are going to have to solve the same sort of problem that I faced.

First of all, people who graduated with me had a masters in pure mathematics. They all found a job very easily, after a few months of looking. So it's not really that difficult. Anecdotal evidence, I know.

Second, even if it's true that you have to apply to many to get to an interview, who says that is not true for other degrees? There are occasional threads here of engineers who are unhappy with their employment too. So I'm not necessarily sure that math and physics majors have that much more issues getting an employment that they like.

 

[homeomorphic]

First of all, people who graduated with me had a masters in pure mathematics. They all found a job very easily, after a few months of looking. So it's not really that difficult. Anecdotal evidence, I know.

Few months. Very easily. Hmm..

It's conceivable that the whole over-qualified thing was an issue for me, with the full PhD because a lot of people think you are just above them and shouldn't be asking for a job with them. Then, anywhere PhDs are expected, it's too competitive.

Second, even if it's true that you have to apply to many to get to an interview, who says that is not true for other degrees? There are occasional threads here of engineers who are unhappy with their employment too. So I'm not necessarily sure that math and physics majors have that much more issues getting an employment that they like.

Sure, other degrees have that problem, but not as much. My advice to be prepared applies to all majors, but this is physics forums.

 

[micromass]

Sure, other degrees have that problem, but not as much.

And you know how?

 

[homeomorphic]

Do we really have to dig up the stats every time? Isn't it just common knowledge that engineering is better than physics for getting a job? Plus, it's not just about the employment rate, but the rate of being able to do what you studied, and those numbers can be a little harder to get a hold of or be objective about, even if you have some data.

 

[micromass]

Few months. Very easily. Hmm..

Are you implying a few months is not easily? What do you expect, people calling you and begging you to take their job? It can take quite some time to find a suitable job and that is true for any major. This is why you actively start looking months before graduation.

 

[micromass]

Do we really have to dig up the stats every time? Isn't it just common knowledge that engineering is better than physics for getting a job? Plus, it's not just about the employment rate, but the rate of being able to do what you studied, and those numbers can be a little harder to get a hold of or be objective about, even if you have some data.

OK, so you're making things up, got it.

Also, you said, any major. And now you're talking about engineering?