So do you risk talking to her about fat?

[DanP]

Apparently, jackmell and DanP think that peoples' self-identity lies - not in their hearts and minds - but in the flesh on their thighs. Simply put, fat people feel X about themselves and about the world's perception of them.

Spotlight effect is a bias so common in humans that I can safely say what I said. It is of course a stereotype, and does not apply to every individual, but yeah, it is many times accurate.

 

[DaveC426913]

...but yeah, it is many times accurate.

How would you know?

You do realize that, to weed out false positives (i.e. your assumptions based on stereotyping, which I am betting accounts for 100% of your samples), you would have to actually stop and interview these random people on the street?

 

[DanP]

How would you know?

You do realize that, to weed out false positives (i.e. your assumptions based on stereotyping, which I am betting accounts for 100% of your samples), you would have to actually stop and interview these random people on the street?

Navigating the social world on stereotypes is much more practical then getting caught in hairsplitting like you do. You can spend an eternity trying to sample whatever populations you want, I prefer the practical route in the social world. It gets me there.

Stereotypes, prejudices and other schemata on other ppl are essential and required in a practical, day to day negotiation of the social world.

 

[jackmell]

Ok, I really don't know what the women I see are thinking. It's just my suspicion that's all.

If I can go back to the original idea I had in this thread: I personally would engage my young daughter at an early age, first grade or so, to talk to her about the (social) difficulties fat people face in our society. I'm aware that could back-fire and I stated that in my original post but I would still risk it because of what I perceive to be extreme suffering overweight women go through dealing with societal pressures to be thin, and I would not want to see my daughter go through that.

Maybe I should have just set up a poll:

Would you directly engage your young pre-pubescent daughter in a frank discussion (of your own design) about the social, personal, and emotional problems of becoming overweight (in America)?

I'm the first to say yes.

 

[turbo]

Would you directly engage your young pre-pubescent daughter in a frank discussion (of your own design) about the social, personal, and emotional problems of becoming overweight?

I'm the first to say yes.

No. Young kids need to be given positive outlets and examples. Laying on negative feelings makes them self-conscious and fearful, leading to destructive behavior. My neighbors' grand-daughters have a half-sister that visits. She is 11 years old, and her mother tells her she's getting a "fat butt" though the little thing is skinny as a rail. I'd like to slap that woman. Doing that to a child is hurtful.

 

[Monique]

No. Young kids need to be given positive outlets and examples.

Absolutely! Focus on the positive, teach her how important a good diet and exercise is. Engage her in positive activities, that's how she learns what's good for her.

 

[Math Is Hard]

jackmell, do you have any kids yet, or are you just speaking hypothetically?

 

[Jack21222]

I'm a fat guy (just over 5'11" and right around 260 pounds), and I've been hearing from my grandmother and a few other family members how I need to lose weight, how I'm too fat, etc. You know what? Not only did it not help, but it made me LESS likely to lose weight, just because I don't like to be ordered around.

 

[DaveC426913]

Ok, I really don't know what the women I see are thinking. It's just my suspicion that's all.

Yyyyep.

And you are about to infect your daughter with it.

Setting aside the issue of how true or false it might be, the technique you're using is a very negative approach, almost sure to impart damage on her psyche.

...talk to her about the (social) difficulties fat people face in our society...

For the sake of your daughter's lifelong mental health, heed monique's and turbo's advice on this.

And for GOD's SAKE, stop talking about FAT PEOPLE. You use it like a cuss word. People have a range of body types; many are unhealthily overweight. The issue here is health, not fatness.

 

[DanP]

And for GOD's SAKE, stop talking about FAT PEOPLE. You use it like a cuss word. People have a range of body types; many are unhealthily overweight. The issue here is health, not fatness.

The issue is with both actually. Health is more salient than other considerations, but yeah, being fat is uncool. You do look like ugly, old and spent if you are fat, truth be told.

 

[turbo]

The issue is with both actually. Health is more salient than other considerations, but yeah, being fat is uncool. You do look like ugly, old and spent if you are fat, truth be told.

The critical point here is "what is the best approach?" If you focus on the negatives, you will give the young girl self-image problems and accentuate the social insecurity that she will inevitably experience as she enters puberty. That's not healthy, and it could result in anorexia, bulemia, and other self-destructive behavior.

What you perceive as "honesty" in such a situation is a form of abuse, IMO.

 

[jackmell]

jackmell, do you have any kids yet, or are you just speaking hypothetically?

I have a grown daughter and son and I am speaking hypothetically as to what a parent could do to raise a healthy daughter.

But it looks like I'm startin' to get my butt kicked with this so well, I know some of you might think this is a cop-out but as I see it, I was successful in engaging a discussion about something that is important to me and other parents: daughters, so wish to claim a lil' bit of win. She needs you to be a healthy part of her life dad. Be there for her as best as you can. :)

 

[DanP]

The critical point here is "what is the best approach?" If you focus on the negatives, you will give the young girl self-image problems and accentuate the social insecurity that she will inevitably experience as she enters puberty. That's not healthy, and it could result in anorexia, bulemia, and other self-destructive behavior.




What you perceive as "honesty" in such a situation is a form of abuse, IMO.

Im not proposing to tell the kid that, but ppl on the forum should be able to get a simple truth. Obesity is a curse. It is not only health issues, there is a plethora of other issues steaming from it, psychological, social, etc.

Claiming is health only issue is burying your head in the sand IMO.

 

[DaveC426913]

Im not proposing to tell the kid that, but ppl on the forum should be able to get a simple truth. Obesity is a curse. It is not only health issues, there is a plethora of other issues steaming from it, psychological, social, etc.

Claiming is health only issue is burying your head in the sand IMO.

No one claimed it is only a health issue.

What we are claiming is that it is first and most importantly a health issue. And certainly when it comes to weighing the risks of a parent's criticism.

Negative criticism from a parent can do far far more damage in the long-term of a person's life than merely being overweight.

 

[DanP]

Negative criticism from a parent can do far far more damage in the long-term of a person's life than merely being overweight.

It can indeed.

 

[FrancisZ]

I would say, that if you want someone else to lose weight, you have to lose weight yourself first (even a minor amount).

I had a friend that used to run every day. She lived next door to our mutual job--a school--so she used to run every day, after work, on her free time in the school yard. It's funny how a thing like that could become contagious.

I really don't like running much; I don't like the impact, or bodily jiggling we are all subject to. But because my friend was doing it, somehow it wasn't so bad to join in. I had somebody to talk to, so I didn't even notice after a while, the unpleasantries of running.

 

[Klockan3]

Negative criticism from a parent can do far far more damage in the long-term of a person's life than merely being overweight.

But it can also do a whole lot of good as well, it depends so much on the context, if your kid is currently going through a tough time then don't, else they can take it just fine and it is good for them to learn that even people who loves them can be brash. Being overweight never helped anyone though.

If you focus on the negatives, you will give the young girl self-image problems and accentuate the social insecurity that she will inevitably experience as she enters puberty.

I think that most of this thread comes from the stigma about females appearances. Somehow you aren't allowed to tell them that they are fat... Why not? What is the difference between telling her that she is fat and telling her that her grades won't get her where she wants? And if you won't tell her then someone else inevitably will and I am sure that the parents are better at handling it well than her classmates.

I'd say that the best way would be to be honest with her when she is just starting to get overweight, not after.

 

[DanP]

I would say, that if you want someone else to lose weight, you have to lose weight yourself first (even a minor amount).

Why in the name of god should I do that ?

 

[airborne18]

The best way to deal with this is with prevention. Address wieght issues before they become a teenager.

My daughter used to eat endlessly, and never gained weight. One day I warned that she will some day have to watch her diet. ( she was probably 9 or 10 ). And I kept it light hearted and she would just laugh and say.. well until then...

Finally she got to the age where she realized that I was right. And I told her, if you work out 45 mins a day, really work out, then you can eat whatever you want.

Well she still has some so-so eating habits, but she is also a fitness freak.

So my advice is plan this in advance and make it a lifestyle. Also don't let kids sit idle. They have so much energy when they are young, and make sure they use it.

 

[Jack21222]

Being overweight never helped anyone though.

Chris Farley's career.

 

[DaveC426913]

But it can also do a whole lot of good as well, it depends so much on the context, if your kid is currently going through a tough time then don't, else they can take it just fine and it is good for them to learn that even people who loves them can be brash.

No, but criticism can do good despite being negative.

There is no form of negative criticism that will do as much good as that which is delivered positively and constructively.

 

[lisab]

Chris Farley's career.

I am 35 years old.. I am divorced.. and I live in a van down by the river!

Career? Yes.

Lifespan? Not so much.

 

[DaveC426913]

Career? Yes.

Lifespan? Not so much.

zing!

 

[FrancisZ]

Why in the name of god should I do that ?

Lead by example. Unless you're really muscular and thin to begin with, you could probably work on yourself (just as we all could). Plus, working out together could end up being a fun activity.

Honestly, I'm naturally inclined also, not to enjoy exercising much. But I have finally gotten dissatisfied with myself enough, in recent years, to start whipping my own gluteus maximus into shape. Just the idea of someone else yelling at me (like a drill sergeant) has always given me grief; so I started working out, initially, just to be up snuff.

I don't do weights; I don't even go to the gym. I just do my own conglomerate routine, fairly regularly (at least once every two days).


(1) I ride my bicycle around my neighborhood (roughly 2 miles) for leg strength.

(2) I do push-ups in my bedroom for upper body strength.

and...

(3) I follow abdominal muscle workout videos on Youtube, just to keep my waist size in check (I'm certainly not "ripped," but this does help burn fat noticeably). Here's a good intro even I could do at first...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tDZRogSbbU


Right now, I'm up to 41 push-ups per day (I'd heard at one time that military boot camp does a minimum of 48 for guys).

 

[DanP]

There is no form of negative criticism that will do as much good as that which is delivered positively and constructively.

How would you know ?

 

[Klockan3]

There is no form of negative criticism that will do as much good as that which is delivered positively and constructively.

It depends on how you look at it, a kid which have never faced being hurt by the truth will be a lot more vulnerable in life later on and can easily turn into an ignorant prick. As long as you don't do it all that often and when you do you do it in a way which shows them that negative criticism is not something to fear.

You are absolutely correct though in that if you have a situation with another person then the best way to solve it is not to go straight on the problem but to talk the other persons language and try to get your will that way. However with kids I'd say that you are not there just to make the kid do X Y and Z but also to make the kid grow up into a great person that can handle all kinds of people and tough situations.

And you know, things like telling your kid to not destroy your backyard is negative criticism too. It hurts the kid to hear that but would you say that you would handle situations like that through other means? Do you realize how obnoxious such a kid would become?

 

[DanP]

Lead by example. Unless you're really muscular and thin to begin with, you could probably work on yourself (just as we all could).

It simply doesn't work that way. If you are OK you could technically afford to tell anyone "you are fat", "buy a mirror" or "you are a walking heart attack" without loosing a gram of weight.

Besides, "really muscular and thin" at the same time is a contradiction. Models are thin. Maybe you mean muscular and low body fat ?

Btw, riding a bike won't do anything for your leg strength. If you want strength, learn to squat.
And I am somehow sure that a military bootcamp does a bit more than 48 pushups in a day. Maybe you mean 48 in a single set ?

 

[Jack21222]

Career? Yes.

Lifespan? Not so much.

He didn't die due to his weight. He died because of a days-long heroin, cocaine, alcohol and stripper binge.

 

[DaveC426913]

He didn't die due to his weight. He died because of a days-long heroin, cocaine, alcohol and stripper binge.

He died of a heart attack. True, the heart atack was caused by cocaine and morphine, however,
'...Advanced atherosclerosis was cited as a "significant contributing factor"'
- wiki

 

[leroyjenkens]

Btw, riding a bike won't do anything for your leg strength. If you want strength, learn to squat.

Just because there are better exercises for building leg strength than riding a bike, doesn't mean riding a bike doesn't build leg strength at all.
That's like saying running 5 miles does nothing to build up cardio, because running 25 miles does it better.

 

[DanP]

Just because there are better exercises for building leg strength than riding a bike, doesn't mean riding a bike doesn't build leg strength at all.
That's like saying running 5 miles does nothing to build up cardio, because running 25 miles does it better.

Yeah, it builds microscopical amounts of strength.

And your example is flawed to the bone because you compare endurance Vs endurance in your example, and I pointed out endurance Vs max-strength. Whatever.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Yeah, it builds microscopical amounts of strength.

And your example is flawed to the bone because you compare endurance Vs endurance in your example, and I pointed out endurance Vs max-strength. Whatever.

So Lance Armstrong's leg strength will be microscopically greater than the average person's?

 

[DanP]

So Lance Armstrong's leg strength will be microscopically greater than the average person's?

How do I know what exactly training regimen he has ? Do you ?

 

[Jasongreat]

Yeah, it builds microscopical amounts of strength.

And your example is flawed to the bone because you compare endurance Vs endurance in your example, and I pointed out endurance Vs max-strength. Whatever.

While it is true that a bike gives the rider a mechanical advantage through the gearing, one could go the other way with the gearing and get one hell of a muscle(strength) building workout, imo. Put a bike in high gear and find a 10% grade to ride up and then tell me a bike builds no strength.

That being said, riding a bike around the neighborhood will most likely not build signifigant amount of muscle or endurance, but it would burn a few more calories than sitting on the couch.

Also, to be fair, you never said anything about max strength in your previous statement, you said a bike will build no strength, so your example is also flawed, imo.

To the OP:
What is the risk of telling the truth? I don't mean you say boy are you fat, but telling the truth about the downside associated with obesity, then providing an example by living the way you want her to, would guide her to where you want her to be without worrying about hurting her self esteem.

 

[DanP]

While it is true that a bike gives the rider a mechanical advantage through the gearing, one could go the other way with the gearing and get one hell of a muscle(strength) building workout, imo. Put a bike in high gear and find a 10% grade to ride up and then tell me a bike builds no strength.

Like I said, microscopical amounts.

 

[Jasongreat]

Like I said, microscopical amounts.

Like I said, same amounts as squats, if you want.

It wouldn't be too hard to find a hill, set the bikes gearing and find that you need to exert 500lbs force to turn the pedals, which would be the same as squating 1000 lbs, wouldn't it? Would squatting 1000lbs build signifigant amounts of muscle?

We must have different ideas about what microscopically amounts are, even a half pound of muscle isn't microscopic,imo. Since muscle burns more calories than fat, even a small amount of added muscle will have profound effects on daily calories burnt, even while watching tv.

 

[Proton Soup]

Look, I am not buying this. If she is too fat for him, how can he still date her ? Your fat enough not to be my wife, but I am still doing it with you ?

Im more inclined to think he has other reasons not to get married.

well, this is an easy one. if you marry a skinny girl, she gets fat. but if you marry a fat girl, she'll get morbidly obese.

 

[DanP]

Like I said, same amounts as squats, if you want.

It wouldn't be too hard to find a hill, set the bikes gearing and find that you need to exert 500lbs force to turn the pedals, which would be the same as squating 1000 lbs, wouldn't it? Would squatting 1000lbs build signifigant amounts of muscle?

We must have different ideas about what microscopically amounts are, even a half pound of muscle isn't microscopic,imo. Since muscle burns more calories than fat, even a small amount of added muscle will have profound effects on daily calories burnt, even while watching tv.

Give me a break. Go spend the next years under a squat bar and then tell me those stories to send kids to bed.

 

[Proton Soup]

Give me a break. Go spend the next years under a squat bar and then tell me those stories to send kids to bed.

i don't know what you guys are going on about, but cyclists and powerlifters are completely different animals. powerlifters have a lot more muscle mass, strength, and fat, and burn fewer calories than pro cyclists. pro cyclists have a lot more endurance, less muscle, less strength, less fat, and burn a ton of calories.

 

[DaveC426913]

What is the risk of telling the truth?

There is no "truth" here.

There is opinion. Possibly educated, possibly not, but inevitably baised.

 

[Loren Booda]

Woman naturally have about twice the fat content as men. Endomorphic women are generally more fertile than ectomorphic women.

 

[FrancisZ]

If you are OK you could technically afford to tell anyone "you are fat", "buy a mirror" or "you are a walking heart attack" without loosing a gram of weight.

Well, in theory, you could do or say anything, incidental, to anyone, if you so choose. But, to paraphrase...

"Why in the name of god [would you] do that...[unless, of course, you'd really want someone to think you're an egomaniac?]"

Besides, "really muscular and thin" at the same time is a contradiction. Models are thin. Maybe you mean muscular and low body fat?

To illustrate my point: take, for example, the two separate renditions of "Mr. Incredible" from that famous Pixar film, "The Incredibles."

Firstly, Mr. Incredible, in his younger form...

And second, here's another, only older...

[PLAIN]http://www.daimation.com/photos/fatmrincredible.jpg

While he obviously seems to be maintaining musculature in the arms (to be slightly more precise); I would certainly no longer regard him as being especially trim, or "thin" (if you please), in the waist.

These of course, are only cartoons. But still: I've known actual people to be of similar enough persuasion, to want to make the analogy.

Btw, riding a bike won't do anything for your leg strength. If you want strength, learn to squat.

Frankly, I can't without laughing. To me, it always looks (and sounds) as though someone were severely constipated, and trying to make do (pun very highly intended).

And I am somehow sure that a military bootcamp does a bit more than 48 push-ups in a day. Maybe you mean 48 in a single set ?

At least according to this wiki article...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Physical_Fitness_Test" ...the minimum is 42 for men aged 17-21.

 

[Office_Shredder]

At least according to this wiki article...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Physical_Fitness_Test" ...the minimum is 42 for men aged 17-21.

That's a single set of pushups that you are required to be able to do, not 42 pushups over the course of a whole day. Anybody could do 48 pushups in a day by doing one every 15 minutes for 12 hours

 

[FrancisZ]

That's a single set of pushups that you are required to be able to do, not 42 pushups over the course of a whole day. Anybody could do 48 pushups in a day by doing one every 15 minutes for 12 hours

I didn't actually say that; he (DanP) implied that I said that.

 

[DanP]

I didn't actually say that; he (DanP) implied that I said that.

Sorry I didnt implied you said that, I only pointed out that 48 pushups /day are a joke, and in an army boot camp it sounds sound ludicrous.

IIRC corectly, US AFT requires in push ups for a score of 100 in the 37 - 41 age group 75 pushups in a time frame of 2 minutes.

 

[jackmell]

There is no "truth" here.

There is opinion. Possibly educated, possibly not, but inevitably baised.

I disagree. I think there is truth: fat women suffer emotionally in American culture because of how they are treated due to their weight.

Also, even though most of you disapprove of my idea, I've not changed my opinion about the matter and in fact have come up with a method of attack: I would tell my young daughter a "story" about a little girl who gets fat and some of the problems she encounters because of that: the other girls make fun of her, she can't play volleyball because she moves too slow, they tease her when she's in her bathing suit, and none of the boys ask her to dance at the 5th grade dance except when the teachers force everyone to get a partner and dance.

And to reiterate, the risk of approaching this subject is that it "back-fires" and she develops some type of eating disorder: better to have her a little overweight than anorexic or bulemic . . . Jesus, I'd rather keep my mouth shut before that happens.

 

[DaveC426913]

And to reiterate, the risk of approaching this subject is that it "back-fires" and she develops some type of eating disorder: better to have her a little overweight than anorexic or bulemic . . . Jesus, I'd rather keep my mouth shut before that happens.

No, the risk of backfire is that she develops weight issues because her father is overly critical of her looks instead of unconditionally-loving and supportive of her accomplishments. Her confidence issues manifest in her being overweight as a way of controlling her own life.

This is a classic parent folly.

 

[jackmell]

No, the risk of backfire is that she develops weight issues because her father is overly critical of her looks instead of unconditionally-loving and supportive of her accomplishments. Her confidence issues manifest in her being overweight as a way of controlling her own life.

This is a classic parent folly.

I would not be critical of her if she became fat, but rather just as loving if she were not and that's what I'd suggest to parents. I wish to get the idea across to not make this fat thing into a big deal. Bring it up here and there and if she does have weight issues, not be critical of her but rather guide her in ways that might be of help to resolve the issue without force, intimidation, or criticism. Really guys, my suggestion is the best approach I think and if mom doesn't go along, well try and convince her cus' you gotta' do that cooperating thing in a marriage. :)

 

[Monique]

I disagree. I think there is truth: fat women suffer emotionally in American culture because of how they are treated due to their weight.

Also, even though most of you disapprove of my idea, I've not changed my opinion about the matter and in fact have come up with a method of attack: I would tell my young daughter a "story" about a little girl who gets fat and some of the problems she encounters because of that: the other girls make fun of her, she can't play volleyball because she moves too slow, they tease her when she's in her bathing suit, and none of the boys ask her to dance at the 5th grade dance except when the teachers force everyone to get a partner and dance.

And what are you teaching her by telling that story? What ideas are you actually instilling in her brain? That it is ok/normal for all overweight people to be bullied and outcast? I don't think that story is a wise lesson at all.

 

[jackmell]

And what are you teaching her by telling that story? What ideas are you actually instilling in her brain? That it is ok/normal for all overweight people to be bullied and outcast? I don't think that story is a wise lesson at all.

But they are bullied and treated harshly in American culture Monique and how would I be instilling that it's ok to do this to fat people? I've give no indication of that? Sometimes I think you guys don't understand big-business: I would weave the story around a little girl that lived on a farm and had plenty of pets then she and I would go get a kitten and name her "me-nu" like I've always named our cats.

So I've planted the seed, then deflected it to something nicer. See guys . . . big-business. :)