Syphoning Effect: Is It Possible?

[antekatavic]

syphoning efect??

one closed reservoir half watter half vacuum, at the bottom of a reservoir a hose that is going to a top of the reservoir... is this going to cause syphoning efect?

 

[JaredJames]

This obviously stems from your previous thread.

Your question is actually "would the water be drawn up through the pipe, turn a turbine to produce electric and then fall back down to repeat the cycle?" - no, this wouldn't work.

The water would fill the pipe. Once level with the surrounding water, it would reach equilibrium and stop moving.

You seem to be confusing two issues. The first is suction such as with a straw and the second is siphoning.

A straw works because you create a low pressure area in your mouth and the atmospheric pressure pushes the liquid up the straw.

Siphoning works by using gravity to take a fluid from one reservoir to another. The reservoir being emptied must be above the one you are filling otherwise it wouldn't work.

 

[Drakkith]

one closed reservoir half watter half vacuum, at the bottom of a reservoir a hose that is going to a top of the reservoir... is this going to cause syphoning efect?

Nope. The water level would be the same in the resevoir and in the tube due to gravity.

 

[antekatavic]

syphoning works because when water is falling it creates vacuum... here you have vacuum all the time... i know it does not work but i want to know way...

 

[JaredJames]

i know it does not work but i want to know way...

You've been told why.

You cannot have a siphon where the output is higher than the input.

Note, the 'vacuum' that would be created if no water continued to flow in a normal siphon is inside the pipe and it is irrelevant that there is one on the outside in that particular regard.

Now a siphon needs air pressure to work. If you don't have air pressure the water would simply run out of both ends of the tube.

 

[antekatavic]

you need presure, no air presure... if you use tall reservoirs the water would create own presure...i don't know... if you jump start the proces maybe the water would continue to flow from the biger presure to a smaller(vacuum)

 

[Drakkith]

you need presure, no air presure... if you use tall reservoirs the water would create own presure...i don't know... if you jump start the proces maybe the water would continue to flow from the biger presure to a smaller(vacuum)

Nope. If you took a container and set up a working siphon, and then made the container airtight, the siphon would not work due to the induced vacuum and air pressure equalizing with the force of gravity on the water.

It's easy to understand. Just take any normal drinking straw, suck some liquid into it, and then hold the top closed with your finger.

The size of the reservoirs doesn't matter. You MUST have something to replace the water or the siphon won't function. Running a hose from a lower reservoir to a higher one won't work either because you are pushing the water against gravity, using the same energy you just gained by letting it fall through the hose during the siphon effect. Actually more because you would have to push the water all the way from the bottom of one reservoir to the top of the other one.

 

[JaredJames]

Would I be right in saying you can't have a siphon over a certain size? After a point (33ft?) the pressure of the water in the pipe overcomes atmospheric pressure and prevents the siphon working.

 

[antekatavic]

33 ft for water, for gas higher for mercury much lower

 

[antekatavic]

now only one more question... if you take a bottle that is 30 m high and full of water... if you turn it up side down and let 19m of water to spil out before you put the cap back on, would this create 19 m of vacuum at the top(bottom) of the bottle.

 

[JaredJames]

Assuming no air is allowed to enter and the bottle can withstand it, yes.

 

[timthereaper]

For water to flow out of the bottle, wouldn't the volume would need to be replaced with air (or the surrounding fluid)?

 

[JaredJames]

For water to flow out of the bottle, wouldn't the volume would need to be replaced with air (or the surrounding fluid)?

If the weight of the water is greater than atmospheric pressure, it will flow. Under normal circumstances the bottle will crush as the water empties and no air is allowed in due to atmospheric pressure. However, if you built a bottle capable of withstanding the pressure difference it will retain its shape.

 

[russ_watters]

syphoning works because when water is falling it creates vacuum... here you have vacuum all the time... i know it does not work but i want to know way...

The falling water on one side of a siphon creates a lower pressure than the water on the other side BECAUSE OF THE LEVEL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TANKS. Here you only have one tank so no pressure difference to drive the flow.

 

[Drakkith]

now only one more question... if you take a bottle that is 30 m high and full of water... if you turn it up side down and let 19m of water to spil out before you put the cap back on, would this create 19 m of vacuum at the top(bottom) of the bottle.

Assuming that the opening and hose and whatnot didn't allow air to enter, and the bottle retained its shape, then it would depend on how much water could be taken from the bottle before the pressure difference is too great for gravity to overcome. I don't know if you could get 19 m of water to empty without something replacing it.

 

[antekatavic]

is it possible use syphoning efect to fill one hole (with sea water)that is going from surface all the way to magma, and drill a parallel hole to let the steam out?

 

[JaredJames]

is it possible use syphoning efect to fill one hole (with sea water)that is going from surface all the way to magma, and drill a parallel hole to let the steam out?

That isn't siphoning. You clearly don't understand what siphoning is.

Here's a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon

What you are proposing is closer to geothermal energy use.

There was also no need to PM me this question.

 

[antekatavic]

you need a syphoning if you do not want to drill under the sea. You want to driil near the sea, but also under the 10 m altitude...

 

[JaredJames]

you need a syphoning if you do not want to drill under the sea. You want to driil near the sea, but also under the 10 m altitude...

What are you talking about? Your posts are complete gibberish.

What does the above even mean? It has nothing to do with your previous post and nothing to do with siphoning.

 

[antekatavic]

you are drilling 10 km from sea(0 meters) and you are starting to drill at a per say 9 meters..
You need a syphoning efect to vsuck the sea water to a point of a drilling.

 

[JaredJames]

you are drilling 10 km from sea(0 meters) and you are starting to drill at a per say 9 meters..
You need a syphoning efect to vsuck the sea water to a point of a drilling.

You cannot siphon uphill!

Read the link I gave above!

Siphons work with gravity, not against it.

The output end must be lower than the input.

 

[antekatavic]

you read what i wrote... output is where the magma is... much lower then the sea level... and no need for capital letters
p.s. sorry for my bad english

 

[JaredJames]

you read what i wrote... output is where the magma is... much lower then the sea level... and no need for capital letters
p.s. sorry for my bad english

You said you were drilling at +9m above sea level, which is higher than the sea. You didn't say you were drilling below sea level, just (and I quote you) "you want to drill near the sea".

If you were drilling to the magma, the pipe would just need to be below the input for it to work.

Geothermal plants don't use steam, they simply pump a fluid down and then back up at a much higher temperature. Under these controlled conditions, they don't get a very efficient process.

Read here for more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy#Electricity

Also: What capital letters are you talking about? The only capital letters in my post above are in the correct places according to the rules of English grammar.

 

[antekatavic]

they are not pumping water down, they are using water that is already there under ground.
Problem is that you do not have that condition everywhere , and you need to find it like you find oil, and sometimes you drill for nothing... if you pump the sea water down with or without syphoning efect... you could use that heated water to produce electricity... I know that there is some kind of eror in all of this ,but i am just curios why are not they tried it jet?

 

[JaredJames]

they are not pumping water down, they are using water that is already there under ground.

Incorrect. Using already existing springs is only one method of utilising it. They do pump water down.

Problem is that you do not have that condition everywhere

No, you don't have springs everywhere - so they pump it down there.

and sometimes you drill for nothing

What? Let's stick to reality shall we. They drill where they know they can extract heat - where the crust is thinnest (usually tectonic boundaries). It's really not that hit and miss. You don't even need to go that deep, you can have a geothermal system installed at your house.

... if you pump the sea water down with or without syphoning efect... you could use that heated water to produce electricity... I know that there is some kind of eror in all of this ,but i am just curios why are not they tried it jet?

The only error is you constantly going to siphoning.

They do pump water down into the ground: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_electricity

In ground that is hot but dry, or where water pressure is inadequate, injected fluid can stimulate production. Developers bore two holes into a candidate site, and fracture the rock between them with explosives or high pressure water. Then they pump water or liquefied carbon dioxide down one borehole, and it comes up the other borehole as a gas. This approach is called hot dry rock geothermal energy in Europe, or enhanced geothermal systems in North America. Much greater potential may be available from this approach than from conventional tapping of natural aquifers.

 

[antekatavic]

ok... i did not know that... thanks...
p.s. it is hit and mis also like finding a oil... you know that there may be a oil but it does not have to be...

 

[JaredJames]

p.s. it is hit and mis also like finding a oil... you know that there may be a oil but it does not have to be...

I suggest you read the links I keep posting. You may just learn how it isn't as hit and miss as you are making out.

 

[antekatavic]

ok maybe it is not like oil but it is not 100 percent sure... but thanks for your answers they where very helpful

 

[jschmidt]

I would like to try to add some signal to the noise in this thread due to, I think, some mis-communication.

One of the neat things about a siphon is that, although it's true that the ultimate output MUST BE LOWER than the source (that's the part about gravity which some of the posters were referring to), you can actually have the tube/pipe that the fluid follows temporarily rise ABOVE the level of the source - as long as the ultimate destination is at a lower point.

This will all only work if the source and destination are at the same pressure (or the destination is at a lower pressure than the source). If your destination has higher pressure than the source, the pressure may be high enough to overcome the force of gravity, and stop the siphon from working.

All that said, if the path which the fluid follows rises above the level of the source, you will need an active 'pump' to get the siphon *started*. Once started, it should continue to flow without additional pumping.

The reason this can work (the path going higher than the source) is that the total weight of the fluid on the 'low' side of the path, which leads to the output, will always end up being greater than the weight of the fluid on the on the 'uphill' side of the path (assuming that the pipe/tube is of constant diameter; if your tube/pipe narrows as it goes to the destination, this could also fail because there would be a greater volume/weight of water on the 'uphill' side).

As the weight of the water on the 'downhill' side of the path is greater, it will create a negative pressure difference on the fluid 'behind it' in the path, and assuming there is any kind of pressure at the source (e.g. atmospheric pressure), the atmospheric pressure + the pressure difference caused by the weight of the water on the 'downhill' side of the path, will force the fluid in the uphill portion of the path to flow uphill.

So, what all this means, is that if you have a pipe running from the ocean, to an 'entry' point +9m above sea-level, but then the pipe continue down to below sea-level (so that the ultimate destination point is below sea-level), then YES, you should, maybe, be able to get a siphon going, and not need to actively pump the water.

HOWEVER, there's another wrench in the works - remember I talked about pressure earlier? When water interacts with magma, it will turn into high-pressure steam. It's quite possible that your siphon WON'T work (or at least won't move fluid down at the rate you'd like), because you have high pressure steam at the bottom of that pipe, which could force it's way up the pipe until there is an equilibrium between the steam pressure and the weight of the water (as the steam expands up the pipe, the pressure will drop; depending upon the initial pressure of the steam, it might reach an equilibrium, or it might race up your pipe all the way to the ocean and then start billowing steam out the 'inlet' of the pipe).

I think the pressure issue from the steam, may be the reason that some geothermal plants actively PUMP working fluid down underground - because they need the pump pressure to counteract the steam pressure.

 

[antekatavic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon
The second problem with the chain model of the siphon is that the weight of liquid on the up side of the siphon can be greater than the liquid on the down side, yet the siphon can still function. For example, if the tube from the upper reservoir to the top of the siphon has a much larger diameter than the section of tube from the lower reservoir to the top of the siphon, the shorter upper section of the siphon may have a much larger weight of liquid in it, yet the siphon can function normally.[11]

also about steam... steam will go up if you drill a pararel pipe that is going down and conecting to the first one at the bottom.
also you can create a big presure with a syphon if the pipe goes down 1km. that is 100 times biger presure then atmosferic presure

 

[Drakkith]

also about steam... steam will go up if you drill a pararel pipe that is going down and conecting to the first one at the bottom.
also you can create a big presure with a syphon if the pipe goes down 1km. that is 100 times biger presure then atmosferic presure

Why would you even need a siphon? Just having a pipe from the water to the hole and down will let gravity take over. No need for a siphon at all.

 

[JaredJames]

Why would you even need a siphon? Just having a pipe from the water to the hole and down will let gravity take over. No need for a siphon at all.

My point for the last few posts - the OP is constantly on about a siphon and it's nothing to do with what they are talking about.

 

[antekatavic]

Ido not understand you question... if you have i pipe that is going from the water to the hole then that is a siphon

 

[JaredJames]

Ido not understand you question... if you have i pipe that is going from the water to the hole then that is a siphon

Not true in the slightest. It is simply a pipe.

 

[jschmidt]

Why would you even need a siphon? Just having a pipe from the water to the hole and down will let gravity take over. No need for a siphon at all.

Well, I think from his previous posts, he's envisioning an over-land pipeline coming from a nearby body of water to the drilling site, but in traversing across the land, it has to go up an elevation of like 9 meters before reaching the bore hole.

It does seem to me like the pipe would act as a siphon, as long as you don't exceed that maximum height of 10m. The one limitation is that 10 meters isn't very high - but may be high enough for some sites. Wouldn't work for getting water up over a mountain.