System of Linear Equations to Reduced Echelon Form

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the process of reducing a system of linear equations to reduced echelon form using an augmented matrix. Participants explore the implications of their reductions and the conditions for the system to be consistent, addressing both mathematical procedures and potential errors in their calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a system of equations and an augmented matrix but questions the correctness of their reduction and how to express conditions for consistency.
  • Another participant critiques the initial setup of the augmented matrix, arguing that replacing the constants with "1" loses essential information.
  • After a correction in the equations, a participant acknowledges confusion and expresses a better understanding after further reflection.
  • Another participant notes that the original equations led to inconsistencies, highlighting the importance of recognizing such issues in real problems.
  • A participant attempts a new reduction based on feedback but questions their results, indicating potential errors in their calculations.
  • Further corrections are suggested regarding specific entries in the augmented matrix, emphasizing the need for careful verification of each step in the calculations.
  • One participant expresses gratitude for the assistance received, indicating that the discussion has helped clarify their understanding of the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correctness of the reductions and the implications for the consistency of the system. There is no consensus on the final correct form of the equations or the conditions for consistency, as multiple corrections and interpretations are presented throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge various errors in their initial setups and calculations, which affect the consistency of the equations. There are unresolved issues regarding the correct formulation of the equations and the corresponding augmented matrix entries.

mattyk
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I have
x1 + 3x2 - x3 = b1
x1 - x2 + 3x3 = b1
-2x1 - 5x2 - x3 = b1

So using an augmented matrix I get this

[1 3 -1 | 1]
[1 -1 3 | 1]
[-2 -5 1 | 1]

[1 3 -1 | 1]
[0 -4 4 | 0] R2 - R1 = R2
[0 1 -1 | 3] R3 + 2R1 = R3

[1 3 -1 | 1]
[0 1 -1 | 3] Swap R2 with R3
[0 -4 4 | 0]

[1 0 2 | -8] R1 - 3R2 = R1
[0 1 -1 | 3]
[0 0 0 | 12] R3 + 4R2 = R3Now my problem is the third row
I don't know how to use this to answer this part of the question
"Use part b) to write an equation that expresses conditions on b1, b2 and b3 so that the system
will be consistent."

Have I reduced it correctly? Is there another way to reduce it?
If not how do I answer that part of the question?
 
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Your very first step- writing the augmented matrix- is wrong because you have replaced b1, b2, and b3 with "1", losing the entire point of the problem!
Your "reduced matrix" should be
\begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 2 & | & -b_1- 3b_3 \\ 0 & 1 & -1 & | & b_3+ 2b_1 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & | & b_2+ 4b_3+ 7b_1 \end{bmatrix}

Those now correspond to the equations
x_1+ 2x_3= -b_1-3b_3
x_2- x_3= b_3+ 2b_1
0= b_2+ 4b_3+ 7b_1

In order that these be "consistent", in other words, that there be values of x_1, x_2, and x_3 so that these equations are true, the third equation, which has no x_1, x_2, or x_3 must be true- we must have b_2+ 4b_3+ 7b_1= 0.[/sub]
 
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Thanks for your reply.
I've written the question down wrong. A copy and paste error. Sorry about that.
It should be

x1 + 3x2 - x3 = b1
x1 - x2 + 3x3 = b2
-2x1 - 5x2 - x3 = b3

I'm assuming that changes things.
 
Last edited:
Or not.
I think I get it now. I replied at 2am whilst trying to feed a 1 year old.
 
Aside from the errors already pointed out, you were doing it right. Your original version led to a problem that is not unusual. The equations were inconsistent and there was no feasible solution. That is apparent after your first step. Row 2 showed that x2 = x3, but row 3 contradicted that. Things like that can easily happen in real problems and it is good if you can recognize when it happens.
 
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I've had another go with what @HallsofIvy has posted.

[1 3 -1 | b1 ]
[1 -1 3 | b2 ]
[-2 -5 1 | b3 ]

[1 3 -1 | b1 ]
[0 -4 4 | b2 - b1 ] R2 - R1 = R2
[0 1 -1 | b3 + 2b1 ] R3 + 2R1

[1 3 -1 | b1 ]
[0 1 -1 | b3 + 2b1 ] Swap R2 & R3
[0 -4 4 | b2 - b1 ]

[1 0 2 | b1 - 3(b3 + 2b1) ] R1 - 3R3
[0 1 -1 | b3 + 2b1 ]
[0 0 0 | (b2 - b1) + 4(b3 + 2b1) ] R3 + 4R2

[1 0 2 | 7b1 - 3b3 ]
[0 1 -1 | b3 + 2b1 ]
[0 0 0 | 7b1 + b2 + 43

x1 + 2x3 = 7b1 - 3b2
x2 - x3 = 2b1 + b3
0 = 7b1 + b2 + 4b3

So my first equation is different to Hallsofivy.
Have I messed up somewhere?
 
Last edited:
Double check your calculations. For instance, I see b1 - 3(b3 + 2b1) = 7b1 - 3b3. Should be -5b1-3b3.
 
Dang it. I looked at that so many times.

So changed I get

x1 + 2x3 = -5b1 - 3b2
x2 - x3 = 2b1 + b3
0 = 7b1 + b2 + 4b3
 
Last edited:
You can make a test case to verify each step. Set x1 = x2 = x3 = 1. The original equations in Post #3 give b1=3, b2=3; b3= -8. Those should work in any equation you get along the way in your solution. If they don't, check that equation. I see that you have a wrong entry in (3,3) at the beginning of Post #6. You have [-2 -5 1 | b3 ] but it should be [-2 -5 -1 | b3 ].

One of the disciplines that math requires is to check every sign and symbol step-by-step. It is very difficult, especially in large problems. That is why symbolic manipulation programs like MAPLE are so valuable.
 
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I wrote the original equation down wrong. it should be -2x1 - 5x2 + x3 = b1.
Sorry about the mistakes.
I'll try to be more careful in the future.

And thank you once again for your help, it has been invaluable. It really helped me get my head something I was struggling to grasp.
 

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